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Something should be done about the lack of housing stock but I'm against opening up the green belt for development. Sure look at the issue of empty houses, land banks and brownfield sites but match that but tackling the problem of population growth through record immigration levels.
Also why does every new development need to consist of 4+ bed detached houses - surely people would go for smaller properties if they built them to a decent standard with some character.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when mention is made of lack of housing supply...
It's a double sided coin - supply AND demand.
Either we increase supply, ie, by building more housing or we curtail demand. In this small and finite landmass, the later makes more sense to me.
I've seen my home town (Enfield), completely wrecked by the irresponsible and un democratic policies of Labour - especially the New Labour years of 97-10.
They presided over a policy of open door uncontrolled immigration and it totally changed communities up and down the land, and the tragic thing is that they still carry it on... Tory's, Labour, Liberal.. All of them are equally at fault..Outside the rat race and proud of it0 -
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when mention is made of lack of housing supply...
It's a double sided coin - supply AND demand.
Either we increase supply, ie, by building more housing or we curtail demand. In this small and finite landmass, the later makes more sense to me.
I've seen my home town (Enfield), completely wrecked by the irresponsible and un democratic policies of Labour - especially the New Labour years of 97-10.
They presided over a policy of open door uncontrolled immigration and it totally changed communities up and down the land, and the tragic thing is that they still carry it on... Tory's, Labour, Liberal.. All of them are equally at fault..
Suggest you stop having sex.
That'll help.
Or would you rather build a house?
There's plenty factually incorrect with that post (basic one would be the UK has never had "uncontrolled" immigration for the past 60 years - ever tried to move someone from Uzbekistan to the UK for work? I have, was a bloody visa nightmare) but I doubt you're interested in facts.0 -
Ah, go on, one more:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-18623096Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).
Loadsa room if you want it.0 -
That's fantastic! Based on that calculation, we could happily have a population of 950 million, which means we would only need to squeeze up a bit more to fit the entire population of Africa in. Bono will be so chuffed! We could finally end African poverty once and for all!Ah, go on, one more:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-18623096Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).
Loadsa room if you want it.0 -
Unfortunately people here, and the people coming expect a green and pleasant land.
That's fantastic! Based on that calculation, we could happily have a population of 950 million, which means we would only need to squeeze up a bit more to fit the entire population of Africa in. Bono will be so chuffed! We could finally end African poverty once and for all!Ah, go on, one more:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-18623096Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).
Loadsa room if you want it.
Must be a disappointment.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It's not "full" though is it?
People who say it's "full" have just decided themselves that there are enough people.
For what it's worth I find the Netherlands a relaxing place. Always space for me on the trains, even at rush hour, rarely have to queue for anything, quiet etc.
Lots of farm land there too. Netherlands produces a lot of farm produce, enough to export a lot of it.
Population density? 493 per km square.
UK population density? 116 per km square.
Plenty of room if you don't mind building a bit and investing a bit.
If you do mind then that's fine but don't say the UK is "full" as a fact. It isn't.0 -
Yes that is all very well and good BUT the UK is not and will not invest "a bit" into infrastructure.
We ve lacked in housing, health, transport, leisure, social care facilities and education for decades and its getting worse,
for example, councils are closing libaries, sporting facilities, spending on road mtce is down, new housing down, social care budgets cut and it ll be years before we ve another choice on this and then maybe 10 ot 20 years before any sort of improvement EVEN if the public voted for an alternative... i ll be way retired by then and my teenage daughter will hopefully have taken adv of her dual nationality and bogged off to Aussie.
You have to deal in what you ve got, not some sort of wish list.0 -
Then population control must be immediately implemented. It's the only logical way to deal with any argument that we are full. We cannot stop migrants and, at the same time, procreate to our heats content. It's irresponsible and hypocritical.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
Then population control must be immediately implemented. It's the only logical way to deal with any argument that we are full. We cannot stop migrants and, at the same time, procreate to our heats content. It's irresponsible and hypocritical.
My missus is doing her bit to ensure there is no chance of me procreating.
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Ah, go on, one more:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-18623096Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).
Loadsa room if you want it.
Why wouldn't it include rural development and roads ? Facts are that England is a highly urbanised country, the parts of England where most of us live far more so. Yes there may be plenty of room in the Scottish Highlands or Cumbria but this is not where the record levels of immigrants tend to settle. We could go on building and do away with the green belt, productive farm land, national parks etc or we could just recognise that the majority opinion in the UK is against turning our country into a concrete jungle and bring immigraion down to a level contributes to reducing demand for housing and other services.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
It's not "full" though is it?
People who say it's "full" have just decided themselves that there are enough people.
For what it's worth I find the Netherlands a relaxing place. Always space for me on the trains, even at rush hour, rarely have to queue for anything, quiet etc.
Lots of farm land there too. Netherlands produces a lot of farm produce, enough to export a lot of it.
Population density? 493 per km square.
UK population density? 116 per km square.
Plenty of room if you don't mind building a bit and investing a bit.
If you do mind then that's fine but don't say the UK is "full" as a fact. It isn't.
Your figure for the UK is way out (it's about double that) and England as opposed to the UK is more densely populated than the Netherlands.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
the problem is Rick that if the UK and indeed the EU, carries on as it is going, then you ll see a rise in right wing parties, a fortress europe... (note the EU is leaving its external border policing to the former east european countries and are keeping silent from their previous statements) and the very people that need help wont be getting it at all.
what is happening now is migration with no end, modern comms means that millions can start their trek to the EU from anywhere....the middle east, Africa or anywhere else for that matter, that is potentially 10s or 100s of millions of poor/badly educated people - that has potential for social unrest and persecution on a grand scale.0 -
Good factual spot.It's not "full" though is it?
People who say it's "full" have just decided themselves that there are enough people.
For what it's worth I find the Netherlands a relaxing place. Always space for me on the trains, even at rush hour, rarely have to queue for anything, quiet etc.
Lots of farm land there too. Netherlands produces a lot of farm produce, enough to export a lot of it.
Population density? 493 per km square.
UK population density? 116 per km square.
Plenty of room if you don't mind building a bit and investing a bit.
If you do mind then that's fine but don't say the UK is "full" as a fact. It isn't.
Your figure for the UK is way out (it's about double that) and England as opposed to the UK is more densely populated than the Netherlands.
Also the point about being able to solve this with 'building a bit and investing a bit' (emphasis on 'a bit') is a woeful understatement of the task required to significantly expand our population and cover people's needs. Ignoring for a minute that most people probably don't want a large increase in our population.
Given the high English population density, maybe some of us should consider moving somewhere less packed like (say) The Netherlands
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I'm not getting into the debate but was curious, England is 413 (so still lower and i'm guessing if you took London out of it it would be quite a bit lower) if you really want to move somewhere though just look a little further north, Scotland has a population density of 68!! it isn't all good though, their fertility rate and life expectancy are quite a bit lower too!www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0
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Given the high English population density, maybe some of us should consider moving somewhere less packed like (say) The Netherlands
You wouldn't like it there Stevo, it's full of lefties so I hear.0 -
Fair spot:
http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc134_c/index.html
Still think there's plenty of room.
I am confused how everyone is more comfortable with excluding all migrants as a solution rather than issue of chronic under investment.
Surely the focus should be on solving the chronic under investment? Improving incentives for high public value investments and disincentivising investment in non-wealth creating assets. That way we all get better services AND we can share the love with more people and continue to be a beacon for the rest of the world to come and share. We can be more productive, work fewer hours for more pay. That's the dream isn't it? And have open boarders so we can enjoy the cultural diversity that comes with that ? With more productivity and fewer hours leisure innovation flourishes as people have time and money to enjoy leisure.
Just seems so regressive.0 -
The problem with solving chronic under-investment is that it is usually Labour's way of saying "let's spend all your money", although the Tories are pretty good at that too (to be fair though, they generally just spend more of it on themselves).
The HS rail link is a typical "investment" in infrastructure...although my view is that £50billion would be better spent other than getting Brummies to London 30 minutes quicker.0 -
Doesn't need to be white elephant govt spending.
Fairly sure the Tories were keen to electrify the entire rail network which I vaguely remember was considered to be good value. Got scrapped which was a shame.
But it's not just that.
Homebuilding is a classic example. When prices rise, developers are often naturally incentivised to leave large portions of their land under developed to maintain higher house prices & thus land value, so ironically, when houses are needed more, fewer are built.
Why isn't this negative externality addressed? Plenty of ways to do it. I don't really mind how (I personally think making it expensive to hold under developed land and more profitable to build on them would make sense, but you could easily get govt to build it themselves)
These are easy wins. They're small but a nice patchwork that tinkers with the free market to keep the bad side effects to a minimum is common sense. This sense can be applied across the economy.
What ever happened with Tory apprenticeships that were supposed to come back? That was a smart idea. Got cut to the bone. What a waste.
What happened to encouraging innovation with funding & tax breaks?
All we seem to get is eiher tax cuts for corporates, big and small (with no addressing what they do with it - hoarding it as cash as they are doing atm isn't stimulating much - why not focus the cuts for those who invest, & innovate? Not everyone who does this is a one man entrepreneur), cuts for top earners (who hoard it in large pension funds or store it up in unproductive houses) or we get bloody '70s renationalise everything which hardly addresses incentives to be productive either (as we have seen)
My friends doing PhDs in things like cancer research or high tech industrial materials are all doing them in continental Europe because they can't get funding here. Why the hell not? These guys who are at their respective European leading institutes, so it's not for lack of good research credentials. They'd have rather done it here. Ridiculous. Funding was cut, so they go elsewhere. Who's going to get the rewards for their work? Not the UK, despite being educated & born in the UK. There are so many examples of this kind of thing; good being thrown out with the bad.
And on top of that both labour and the Tories are intent on limits what we can say or do, and expanding what they can read and listen in to like it's bloody stasiland and the lives of others.
Crying shame.0 -
No wonder no-one's interested in coming to the UK. Oh hang on...0
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I'm not so sure, we have some fairly substantial Dutch operations and I like them and their attitude to business. Even the Dutch tax inspectors I met last week in Amsterdam are pretty pragmatic and were pointing out possible investment incentives if we made further business investments there. Unlike some here, they know they have to compete for international investmentGiven the high English population density, maybe some of us should consider moving somewhere less packed like (say) The Netherlands
You wouldn't like it there Stevo, it's full of lefties so I hear. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I'm not so sure, we have some fairly substantial Dutch operations and I like them and their attitude to business. Even the Dutch tax inspectors I met last week in Amsterdam are pretty pragmatic and were pointing out possible investment incentives if we made further business investments there. Unlike some here, they know they have to compete for international investmentGiven the high English population density, maybe some of us should consider moving somewhere less packed like (say) The Netherlands
You wouldn't like it there Stevo, it's full of lefties so I hear.
I was thinking of all those high wages and the low(er) income inequality. Like I say, you'd hate a place like that. Look, here's something to cheer you up after such a depressing thought. It's Thatcher laughing at some poor people in a workhouse.
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No wonder no-one's interested in coming to the UK. Oh hang on...
It's all relative and you know it.0 -
Yawn, more assumptions that fit your views. Try some facts, here's a starter with average monthly wages - UK comfortably higher than NL
I'm not so sure, we have some fairly substantial Dutch operations and I like them and their attitude to business. Even the Dutch tax inspectors I met last week in Amsterdam are pretty pragmatic and were pointing out possible investment incentives if we made further business investments there. Unlike some here, they know they have to compete for international investmentGiven the high English population density, maybe some of us should consider moving somewhere less packed like (say) The Netherlands
You wouldn't like it there Stevo, it's full of lefties so I hear.
I was thinking of all those high wages and the low(er) income inequality. Like I say, you'd hate a place like that. Look, here's something to cheer you up after such a depressing thought. It's Thatcher laughing at some poor people in a workhouse.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Map
Nearly all of those with higher average wages than the UK are low tax territories. Terrible thing this tax competition. Bit of a pattern emerging? "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
That's net wages and it's not PPP. Dutch gross wages are higher (according to the link you posted), but they pay higher taxes so they can have better public services. Here are some more lists. And another. You've also not factored in the fact that Dutch people don't work as many hours as the Brits, so their pay per time worked is actually higher.
And some more.
Here's quite an important one - health (probably where some of that Dutch tax money goes).
Anyway, that's enough leftybollox for now.0 -
Good point about net pay. So we have more money in our pockets to spend on what we want, not what the state decides that we want. That's what I want and what a lot of people in the UK want, hence the current tory majority.That's net wages and it's not PPP. Dutch gross wages are higher (according to the link you posted), but they pay higher taxes so they can have better public services. Here are some more lists. And another. You've also not factored in the fact that Dutch people don't work as many hours as the Brits, so their pay per time worked is actually higher.
And some more.
Here's quite an important one - health (probably where some of that Dutch tax money goes).
Anyway, that's enough leftybollox for now.
You claim that they have better public services - evidence please?
And while we're o facts, the UK miminim wage is pretty much the same as NL at current exchange rates and soon will be higher. So on the face of less inequality, especially after tax.
https://www.government.nl/topics/minimum-wage/contents/amount-of-the-minimum-wage
Oh, and lower unemployment. Those damn flexible labour markets.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Good point about net pay. So we have more money in our pockets to spend on what we want, not what the state decides that we want. That's what I want and what a lot of people in the UK want, hence the current tory majority.
People want decent health, education and transport. Whether they actually want to pay for it is another matter. You might not want to pay your taxes now, but if you or your family were ever to be cursed with cancer, you'd want to be in the country with the best possible treatment. Many other countries have made that choice. The Dutch get higher gross wages for shorter working hours than the Brits, but they vote for governments which take a greater percentage of their income to make sure that they get better treatment, better education, transport or whatever.You claim that they have better public services - evidence please?
I've provided you with some evidence - look at the healthcare statistics. The Dutch do far better than us.And while we're o facts, the UK miminim wage is pretty much the same as NL at current exchange rates and soon will be higher. So on the face of less inequality, especially after tax.
https://www.government.nl/topics/minimum-wage/contents/amount-of-the-minimum-wage
No, Britain is far more unequal than Netherlands in terms of income inequality.Oh, and lower unemployment. Those damn flexible labour markets.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate
Our unemployment rates are marginally lower than the Dutch, but unemployment doesn't really tell you much about how developed a country is. Looking at that list, Vietnam, Laos, Belarus and Turkmenistan (to take just a few examples) all have lower official unemployment than any EU country. That doesn't mean that they are more developed. Also, unemployment rates are measured in different ways in different countries, so you're comparing apples and oranges unless you get unemployment rates measured using a consistent method. Organisations like the ILO usually issue a disclaimer with their data, warning users that official unemployment rates might not give the full picture.0 -
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Suggest you stop having sex.
That'll help.
Or would you rather build a house?
There's plenty factually incorrect with that post (basic one would be the UK has never had "uncontrolled" immigration for the past 60 years - ever tried to move someone from Uzbekistan to the UK for work? I have, was a bloody visa nightmare) but I doubt you're interested in facts.[/quote]
I'm very interested in facts. Especially the facts that I can see before my eyes when I walk down my local high street. Your suggestion to stop having sex is right on the money, I endorse it whole heartedly and I recommend it for the many burka clad ladies I see walking along the High Street pushing a pram with a baby, another 2 or 3 kids walking alongside; all funded by the great British tax payer. I'm old enough to remember what this great nation was like before Blair, Mandleson, Brown etc, got their hands on it.
Mandleson was famous for saying they scoured far and wide and sent out 'search parties' to bring in immigrants to this country. And Andrew Neather, Labour spin doctor, made mention of doing this to 'rub the right's noses in diversity'. What an utterly nasty, shitty and short sighted thing to do.
Still, lefties don't look that far into the future or think through the consequences of their actions.Outside the rat race and proud of it0 -
^^^
Neather only said that certain ministers saw "rubbing the right's nose in diversity" as some sort of side benefit, not the main reason to allow immigrants in (economic purposes), and he only said that "he got the impression" they were doing this. He also mentioned that other Labour ministers, with working class constituencies, felt less comfortable with mass immigration.0
