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rick_chasey

Bompington is a real fan of the spectator...!

bompington

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bompington is a real fan of the spectator...!

Among other sources.
I am keen on the Speccie, CapX, Quillette, and Spiked (I do also quite like the Guardian despite finding some of it really annoying tosh) precisely because they all have a lot in them that I agree with, and a lot that I don't.
I am mainly of the free-market persuasion, a bit libertarian even in some ways, a believer in human progress but also in the value of continuity and tradition; my working life has largely been involved with helping the underprivileged but I am a believer in personal choice and self-help; I cherish freedom and despise coercion but I am also a Christian who has quite traditional moral values.
I find that I have to consciously resist the urge to stay in my bubble and only listen to the voices that agree with me on everything, but, as you might be able to work out, there aren't really any, and anyway, echo chambers are a large part of the problem, aren't they?

shortfall

Rick Chasey wrote:

https://quillette.com/2018/12/03/the-ideology-of-corbynism/

The ideology of Corbynism.

Three aspects of their critique, in particular, offer an illuminating perspective on Corbynism: the notion of “two campism,” the moral mythology surrounding the person of Corbyn, and the relationship between Corbynism and conspiracy theories.

Which obviously begs the question, what is making people (predominantly young people) support him?

Seems pretty simple to me, he says the things they want to hear and gives them hope. The young don't have the collective memory of what happened when we ran the country along the lines he suggests but if they need a clue as to what might happen they could maybe look at what's going on Venezuela.

rick_chasey

Sure but with all due respect, neither did the generation before and they weren’t all voting for a conspiratorial socialist.

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bompington is a real fan of the spectator...!

Among other sources.
I am keen on the Speccie, CapX, Quillette, and Spiked (I do also quite like the Guardian despite finding some of it really annoying tosh) precisely because they all have a lot in them that I agree with, and a lot that I don't.
I am mainly of the free-market persuasion, a bit libertarian even in some ways, a believer in human progress but also in the value of continuity and tradition; my working life has largely been involved with helping the underprivileged but I am a believer in personal choice and self-help; I cherish freedom and despise coercion but I am also a Christian who has quite traditional moral values.
I find that I have to consciously resist the urge to stay in my bubble and only listen to the voices that agree with me on everything, but, as you might be able to work out, there aren't really any, and anyway, echo chambers are a large part of the problem, aren't they?

So that's why I argue with people on here: no chance of doing that given my friends all broadly agree and people at work don't wanna hear it.

However, It's not as clear cut as looking outside an 'echo-chamber' improving your balanced view.

https://thenextweb.com/politics/2018/03 ... ood-thing/

There was another article with a better study that I now can't find that suggests that exposing yourself to opposing views actually entrenches your position rather than softens it.

I think threads like this bear that out. I'm certainly more entrenched in positions when arguing on here than I probably am in private. Occasionally we all break out the 'ah I'm wrong' or 'perhaps my position isn't as clear cut as I / it's being made out' but let's face it, none of us do that as much as we should.

So i'm not entirely convinced that reading stuff elsewhere helps. I certainly feel more strongly in my opinions having read the daily mail than before reading it.

I think most of us naturally know to find some kind of balance. Most people tend to read reasonably centrist outlets and are at least aware of different positions and ideas.

shortfall

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure but with all due respect, neither did the generation before and they weren’t all voting for a conspiratorial socialist.

No because following the Winter of Discontent Labour had twenty years to come up with Blair as it's antidote to permanent opposition. People like Jeremy Corbyn were then consigned to irrelevance by Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson's ruthless control of the party. Fast forward 20 years and all that kids remember is the collective failures of Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. Its no wonder they are charmed by the promise of free unicorns for everyone paid for by taxing all those nasty rich people and corporations.

rick_chasey

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure but with all due respect, neither did the generation before and they weren’t all voting for a conspiratorial socialist.

No because following the Winter of Discontent Labour had twenty years to come up with Blair as it's antidote to permanent opposition. People like Jeremy Corbyn were then consigned to irrelevance by Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson's ruthless control of the party. Fast forward 20 years and all that kids remember is the collective failures of Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. Its no wonder they are charmed by the promise of free unicorns for everyone paid for by taxing all those nasty rich people and corporations.

The winter of discontent was 40 years ago!! For context, only 54% of the U.K. population is over 40.

My point still stands; politicians always promise he moon on a stick. It’s only now the more extreme ones are being listened to.

surrey_commuter

Shirley Basso wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Pretty sure it's just an interest free loan. Not tax deductible.

On topic. I wonder how sweetly ironic it would have been if Labour had got in and we weren't f*cking around with brexit.

Seems the country could have been saved.

I think the saying is 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' (with bells on).

A short sharp searing in the fire, but then back in the relative sauna of the frying pan after 4 or so years. But at least no Brexit.

I would certainly trade 5 years of Corbyn for no Brexit

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bompington is a real fan of the spectator...!

Among other sources.
I am keen on the Speccie, CapX, Quillette, and Spiked

So Spectator is fairly tory, owned by the Barclays bros and has, for example, toby young as a main contributor.

Quilette is a toby young vehicle.

CapX has Hannan as a main contributor.

Spiked is edited by Brendan O'Neil, a contributor to the spectator and telegraph.


Not that a diverse pool of sources?

bompington

Right-wing bogeymen one and all

rick_chasey

Sure but don’t pretend you look for it far and wide.

bompington

Did I mention that I also read the Guardian, which manages to counterbalance all of the above quite well on its own?

But the point of what I was trying to say was that I am not some one-dimensional thing that can be positioned precisely along a left-right axis*: so, for example, most of those right-wing bogeymen, in fact the vast majority of the stuff in all those publications, are very pro-brexit, but I'm not. Or then there's Spiked's rather weird Russophilia, possibly a hangover from its "Maxism Today" legacy. I would say that at the moment, I disagree with at least half of the total output of this bunch.


*and you aren't either, nor anyone else

rick_chasey

Sure but I’d hazard a guess that you mainly read the guardian to be cheesed off as a) it’s pretty bad - beyond basic reporting it’s about as flimsy and reactionary as the telegraph has become and b) big parts of it are almost engineered to annoy people with your type of political persuasion.

Stevo_666

Shirley Basso wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Pretty sure it's just an interest free loan. Not tax deductible.

On topic. I wonder how sweetly ironic it would have been if Labour had got in and we weren't f*cking around with brexit.

Seems the country could have been saved.

I think the saying is 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' (with bells on).

A short sharp searing in the fire, but then back in the relative sauna of the frying pan after 4 or so years. But at least no Brexit.

Unfortunately for you, I don't think even Corbyn has the budget for an operational time machine.

shortfall

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure but with all due respect, neither did the generation before and they weren’t all voting for a conspiratorial socialist.

No because following the Winter of Discontent Labour had twenty years to come up with Blair as it's antidote to permanent opposition. People like Jeremy Corbyn were then consigned to irrelevance by Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson's ruthless control of the party. Fast forward 20 years and all that kids remember is the collective failures of Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. Its no wonder they are charmed by the promise of free unicorns for everyone paid for by taxing all those nasty rich people and corporations.

The winter of discontent was 40 years ago!! For context, only 54% of the U.K. population is over 40.

My point still stands; politicians always promise he moon on a stick. It’s only now the more extreme ones are being listened to.

I agree with you about politicians having always promised things that they failed to deliver, plus ça change. I just think Corbyn has been skilfully positioned by Momentum to appear as this kind and fluffy conviction politician who wants to help the young and the poor and make the rich pay for it all. All this and with no harm to the economy too! It's precisely because the Winter of Discontent was 40 years ago that so many young people fall for this sh1te. Those of us who were around at the time aren't in a big rush to return to those days.

Stevo_666

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sure but with all due respect, neither did the generation before and they weren’t all voting for a conspiratorial socialist.

No because following the Winter of Discontent Labour had twenty years to come up with Blair as it's antidote to permanent opposition. People like Jeremy Corbyn were then consigned to irrelevance by Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson's ruthless control of the party. Fast forward 20 years and all that kids remember is the collective failures of Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. Its no wonder they are charmed by the promise of free unicorns for everyone paid for by taxing all those nasty rich people and corporations.

The winter of discontent was 40 years ago!! For context, only 54% of the U.K. population is over 40.

My point still stands; politicians always promise he moon on a stick. It’s only now the more extreme ones are being listened to.

I agree with you about politicians having always promised things that they failed to deliver, plus ça change. I just think Corbyn has been skilfully positioned by Momentum to appear as this kind and fluffy conviction politician who wants to help the young and the poor and make the rich pay for it all. All this and with no harm to the economy too! It's precisely because the Winter of Discontent was 40 years ago that so many young people fall for this sh1te. Those of us who were around at the time aren't in a big rush to return to those days.

+1.

We should have some sort of political remembrance day to remind those not old enough to know how badly the last lot of proper lefties in power screwed it up.

rick_chasey

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

I’ve been voting for over a decade and I was born a decade after the winter of discontent ffs.

Might as well bang on about the great repeal act.

You gonna mention Attlee and the NHS too??

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

I’ve been voting for over a decade and I was born a decade after the winter of discontent ffs.

Might as well bang on about the great repeal act.

You gonna mention Attlee and the NHS too??

So just to be clear, you're not in favour of a leftiebollox disaster remembrance day?

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

I’ve been voting for over a decade and I was born a decade after the winter of discontent ffs.

Might as well bang on about the great repeal act.

You gonna mention Attlee and the NHS too??

So just to be clear, you're not in favour of a leftiebollox disaster remembrance day?

You could have some difficult-to-recycle plastic flowers made by retired coal miners, that you wear to show your support and then we can all get all passive aggressive about whether people should be wearing them even though it's totally their choice.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

I’ve been voting for over a decade and I was born a decade after the winter of discontent ffs.

Might as well bang on about the great repeal act.

You gonna mention Attlee and the NHS too??

So just to be clear, you're not in favour of a leftiebollox disaster remembrance day?

You could have some difficult-to-recycle plastic flowers made by retired coal miners, that you wear to show your support and then we can all get all passive aggressive about whether people should be wearing them even though it's totally their choice.

And maybe a few pictures of some of the Trots of the era.

BelgianBeerGeek

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

I’ve been voting for over a decade and I was born a decade after the winter of discontent ffs.

Might as well bang on about the great repeal act.

You gonna mention Attlee and the NHS too??

So just to be clear, you're not in favour of a leftiebollox disaster remembrance day?

You could have some difficult-to-recycle plastic flowers made by retired coal miners, that you wear to show your support and then we can all get all passive aggressive about whether people should be wearing them even though it's totally their choice.

And maybe a few pictures of some of the Trots of the era.



[/quote
I’m voting for the Trots next time. One bunch of clowns for another. As a civil servant I’ll be quids in and it’ll give you Tory nuggets a kick up the aris. C’mon Bally and Stevo lets get something going!

rjsterry

Wow, that tie!

Stevo_666

LeftieBeerGeek wrote:

I’m voting for the Trots next time. One bunch of clowns for another. As a civil servant I’ll be quids in and it’ll give you Tory nuggets a kick up the aris. C’mon Bally and Stevo lets get something going!

What do you mean next time? You not voted Labour before?

Imagine if Corbyn's lot got in: do you think my skill set would be more or less in demand? Every cloud...

That said, the latest views I read put the possibility of Commie Captain Birdseye making it into Number 10 as less than 5%.

shortfall

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

That's because the Labour Party had spent the previous 30 odd years attempting to distance itself from the hard left. The last leader it had who was remotely like Corbyn was the disastrous Michael Foot. Quite why Labour ended up with a leader to the left of Michael Foot in the modern era is anyone's guess, but it is his good fortune that his voting demographic have either forgotten or never knew how ruinous his favoured economic policies were for both the country and the Labour Party. In short people couldn't vote for the likes of Jeremy Corbyn because they'd been rightly consigned to the political dustbin and didn't appear on the ballot paper.

BelgianBeerGeek

Stevo 666 wrote:

LeftieBeerGeek wrote:

I’m voting for the Trots next time. One bunch of clowns for another. As a civil servant I’ll be quids in and it’ll give you Tory nuggets a kick up the aris. C’mon Bally and Stevo lets get something going!

What do you mean next time? You not voted Labour before?

Imagine if Corbyn's lot got in: do you think my skill set would be more or less in demand? Every cloud...

That said, the latest views I read put the possibility of Commie Captain Birdseye making it into Number 10 as less than 5%.

Never voted Labour in my life. Will do next time.

DeVlaeminck

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

That's because the Labour Party had spent the previous 30 odd years attempting to distance itself from the hard left. The last leader it had who was remotely like Corbyn was the disastrous Michael Foot. Quite why Labour ended up with a leader to the left of Michael Foot in the modern era is anyone's guess, but it is his good fortune that his voting demographic have either forgotten or never knew how ruinous his favoured economic policies were for both the country and the Labour Party. In short people couldn't vote for the likes of Jeremy Corbyn because they'd been rightly consigned to the political dustbin and didn't appear on the ballot paper.

Foot was never PM or Chancellor so how his favoured policies were ruinous for the country I'm not sure.

Foot's Labour of course was damaged by two major events, one of their own making which was the split and the formation of the SDP, the other the Falklands War. Foot was also less media savvy than Corbyn and John Mc. Assuming Labour doesn't split again and we don't have another popular war I don't think it's that unlikely a Corbyn led Labour would do well electorally.

shortfall

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

That's because the Labour Party had spent the previous 30 odd years attempting to distance itself from the hard left. The last leader it had who was remotely like Corbyn was the disastrous Michael Foot. Quite why Labour ended up with a leader to the left of Michael Foot in the modern era is anyone's guess, but it is his good fortune that his voting demographic have either forgotten or never knew how ruinous his favoured economic policies were for both the country and the Labour Party. In short people couldn't vote for the likes of Jeremy Corbyn because they'd been rightly consigned to the political dustbin and didn't appear on the ballot paper.

Foot was never PM or Chancellor so how his favoured policies were ruinous for the country I'm not sure.

Foot's Labour of course was damaged by two major events, one of their own making which was the split and the formation of the SDP, the other the Falklands War. Foot was also less media savvy than Corbyn and John Mc. Assuming Labour doesn't split again and we don't have another popular war I don't think it's that unlikely a Corbyn led Labour would do well electorally.

I was referring to Corbyn's economic policies (he appointed a self proclaimed Marxist as his shadow chancellor). Foot's 1983 leftist manifesto was widely rejected by the electorate and gave Thatcher a landslide victory. Labour then began the process of distancing itself from the sort of policies that were linked to economic and political failure around the world. Corbyn is cut from the same cloth as Michael Foot but without the brains. He has however got a ruthless machine behind him in the name of Momentum who are having an easy job of convincing young voters with no knowledge of the recent past, that Corbyn will be good for them.


ETA The utter uselessness of the Tories makes the alternative of a Corbyn government seem far more appealing than it should be.

rick_chasey

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

That's because the Labour Party had spent the previous 30 odd years attempting to distance itself from the hard left. The last leader it had who was remotely like Corbyn was the disastrous Michael Foot. Quite why Labour ended up with a leader to the left of Michael Foot in the modern era is anyone's guess, but it is his good fortune that his voting demographic have either forgotten or never knew how ruinous his favoured economic policies were for both the country and the Labour Party. In short people couldn't vote for the likes of Jeremy Corbyn because they'd been rightly consigned to the political dustbin and didn't appear on the ballot paper.

The original point was why are the current young generation voting for Corbyn; then someone said “they don’t remember the winter of discontent” - which is pointless because, as per above, two generations before who also didn’t remember it didn’t vote for a guy on the far left...

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

That's because the Labour Party had spent the previous 30 odd years attempting to distance itself from the hard left. The last leader it had who was remotely like Corbyn was the disastrous Michael Foot. Quite why Labour ended up with a leader to the left of Michael Foot in the modern era is anyone's guess, but it is his good fortune that his voting demographic have either forgotten or never knew how ruinous his favoured economic policies were for both the country and the Labour Party. In short people couldn't vote for the likes of Jeremy Corbyn because they'd been rightly consigned to the political dustbin and didn't appear on the ballot paper.

The original point was why are the current young generation voting for Corbyn; then someone said “they don’t remember the winter of discontent” - which is pointless because, as per above, two generations before who also didn’t remember it didn’t vote for a guy on the far left...

Arguably there wasn't a far left option until Corbyn became Labour leader.

shortfall

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh for the last time neither did the generation before who voted for Cameron, not the generation before who voted Blair in in record numbers.

That's because the Labour Party had spent the previous 30 odd years attempting to distance itself from the hard left. The last leader it had who was remotely like Corbyn was the disastrous Michael Foot. Quite why Labour ended up with a leader to the left of Michael Foot in the modern era is anyone's guess, but it is his good fortune that his voting demographic have either forgotten or never knew how ruinous his favoured economic policies were for both the country and the Labour Party. In short people couldn't vote for the likes of Jeremy Corbyn because they'd been rightly consigned to the political dustbin and didn't appear on the ballot paper.

The original point was why are the current young generation voting for Corbyn; then someone said “they don’t remember the winter of discontent” - which is pointless because, as per above, two generations before who also didn’t remember it didn’t vote for a guy on the far left...

Arguably there wasn't a far left option until Corbyn became Labour leader.

This is exactly what I am saying and the reason was (in part) because we had the winter of discontent and the far left was consigned to the political wilderness. By some miracle Corbyn has now found himself as leader of the opposition and his simple message is appealing to young voters who didn't live through the 70s. This simple point seems to be lost on Rick.