Join the Labour Party and save your country!

mamba80

rjsterry wrote:

....... We both agree that the current government is doing a poor job; where we differ is that I think that what Corbyn is offering sounds nice, but is not realisable.

I dont necessarily think that ALL that Corbyn is offering is deliverable but its a vision and folk buy into that, May is def a poor PM but the tories are hung on the hook of Austerity and that very much limits what they can offer.

As i said, you cannot say we are the 6th richest nation in the world but then fail to fund a health service/prison/lower student fees etc.

We are years from a GE, a lot can change so who knows what will happen.

Stevo_666

Jez mon wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Idiots joining the Labour party and voting for him had something to do with it I would guess.

True, the number of hard left and union types joining up was significant.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us ) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.

Hardly, we ve the tories, promising tax cuts (and delivering) for companies and wealthy individuals, for the rest of us, more austerity, an NHS facing crisis and when is own inspectorate say dozens of people have died in corridors waiting for treatment, what else can it be? then of course Brexit.. all of this is an open door for any opposition.

We keep getting told we are the 6th richest country in the world despite the GFC ... yet so few feel that, so Labour are promising a more hopeful vision.

all i hear from yourself, Stev0 etc etc is labour will take us back to the 70s, its scare stories... well the tories are taking us back to the 1870s...Victorian jail conditions and suicides, disability assessments, parents paying for basic teaching material in schools, huge care home fees for our elderly, roads fit for a horse an cart.

you guys have no vision for the country, non at all, corbyn does and until the tories start delivering on Mays wonderful rhetoric a Labour Gov is a possibility.

this is a meaningless stat thrown about by Brexiteers who hark back to the days of the Empire (but you know that)

More relevant is GDP per head on which we are 26th richest in the world but as many ahead of us are tiny states with massive oil wealth we really are not doing that badly.

This leaves the possibility that this is what it feels like to live in one of the richest countries on the planet and that people need to accept. And that is even before you allow for the fact that we invariably run at a loss and are nearly £2trn in debt.

Arguing to spend extra money for everything makes no sense. You should balance your argument by saying where you would save money or realistically raise more.

Corbyn is popular because he promises to spend more. And surprise surprise a bunch of thickos unable to think through his actions to the likely conclusion will vote for him

Lefties can't do that. There is always a pot of untapped cash being hidden somewhere and they only need to find it - that is the jist of mamba's 'we are a rich country but where is the cash?' claim. Maybe he should try living in a properly poor country - say Cuba or Venezuela.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us ) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.

Doesn't that kind of blow a hole in the assertion the centrist voters have on average a higher IQ?

Thing is, if Corbyn ever does get lucky, they will only get one term in power - then the country will learn its lesson about socialism until the next generation comes along that doesn't realise what it entails/cannot remember what happened the last time.

shortfall

mamba80 wrote:

As i said, you cannot say we are the 6th richest nation in the world but then fail to fund a health service/prison/lower student fees etc.
.

We are the 6th largest economy which is slightly different, but in any case both the USA and China whose economies dwarf the UK's have healthcare systems that are ranked much lower than ours http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-he ... h-systems/
https://fullfact.org/health/has-nhs-bee ... stem-world

It's about priorities. We are living beyond our means and have been for years (hence the deficit and 2Tr debt). The Tories have borrowed lots of money to keep things more or less as they are, wheras Corbyn wants to borrow even more (and talks about absolutely collosal sums) to renationalise utilities and fund his program of big government and infrastructure projects. John McDonnell seems to think all this extra borrowing will pay for itself. If you believe him then I have this bridge I want to sell you.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us ) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.

Doesn't that kind of blow a hole in the assertion the centrist voters have on average a higher IQ?

Thing is, if Corbyn ever does get lucky, they will only get one term in power - then the country will learn its lesson about socialism until the next generation comes along that doesn't realise what it entails/cannot remember what happened the last time.

I love how you are reading that post as being all about Corbyn. In any normal political world he would be a fringe interest. That he is even being talked about as a possible prime minister is a damning indictment of mainstream politics of all parties. Likewise that the Conservatives seem to be actively considering the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg as a potential leader.

Jez mon

Surrey Commuter wrote:

this is a meaningless stat thrown about by Brexiteers who hark back to the days of the Empire (but you know that)

More relevant is GDP per head on which we are 26th richest in the world but as many ahead of us are tiny states with massive oil wealth we really are not doing that badly.

This leaves the possibility that this is what it feels like to live in one of the richest countries on the planet and that people need to accept. And that is even before you allow for the fact that we invariably run at a loss and are nearly £2trn in debt.

Arguing to spend extra money for everything makes no sense. You should balance your argument by saying where you would save money or realistically raise more.

Corbyn is popular because he promises to spend more. And surprise surprise a bunch of thickos unable to think through his actions to the likely conclusion will vote for him

Deriding groups that have different political views as a bunch of thickos is hardly a great idea. In general, the govt just splurging money isn't a great idea. However, I think Corbyn was right to make a play for the young 'uns. After all, the Tory party have been beholden to pensioners for years...

There is a fundamental issue around millennials, where by and large, many of the things our parents took for granted are no longer affordable...

We pay into what are generally poor pension schemes and have high student debt, and won't be able to retire for ages.

Of course, we get avocados, skiing holidays and nice cars on finance, but we can't afford a house!!

ballysmate

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us ) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.

Doesn't that kind of blow a hole in the assertion the centrist voters have on average a higher IQ?

Thing is, if Corbyn ever does get lucky, they will only get one term in power - then the country will learn its lesson about socialism until the next generation comes along that doesn't realise what it entails/cannot remember what happened the last time.

If he does get lucky, he has already threatened the press who had the temerity to publish the Czech story that changes will be made. So perhaps the public under Jezza would only get state approved news.
He didn't just idle away his time with Abbott in '70s E Germany did he?

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

Lefties can't do that. There is always a pot of untapped cash being hidden somewhere and they only need to find it - that is the jist of mamba's 'we are a rich country but where is the cash?' claim. Maybe he should try living in a properly poor country - say Cuba or Venezuela.

so we are not the 6th richest country in the world then? we either are or we are not and if you claim we are, then it is reasonable to ask where are the public services to go with 6th richest etc....

unlike your good self, i have lived in so called poor countries, stepping over dead bodies in morning was something i didnt think would happen in the UK, let alone MPs stepping over said folk, might even ruin their day, though doubtful.
Food banks arent something to be proud about either.

SC s est of 26th feels about right, so we ll go with that, interesting that you think the UK is down there with Venezuela and Cuba

shortfall

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Lefties can't do that. There is always a pot of untapped cash being hidden somewhere and they only need to find it - that is the jist of mamba's 'we are a rich country but where is the cash?' claim. Maybe he should try living in a properly poor country - say Cuba or Venezuela.

so we are not the 6th richest country in the world then? we either are or we are not and if you claim we are, then it is reasonable to ask where are the public services to go with 6th richest etc....

unlike your good self, i have lived in so called poor countries, stepping over dead bodies in morning was something i didnt think would happen in the UK, let alone MPs stepping over said folk, might even ruin their day, though doubtful.
Food banks arent something to be proud about either.

SC s est of 26th feels about right, so we ll go with that, interesting that you think the UK is down there with Venezuela and Cuba

Not quite the same as having to step over corpses, but during the Winter of Discontent (under the last government that came close to the sort of thing we might have to endure under Corbyn) the dead went unburied in parts of the country when grave diggers went on strike.

shortfall

Jez mon wrote:

Deriding groups that have different political views as a bunch of thickos is hardly a great idea. .

Of course, we get avocados, skiing holidays and nice cars on finance, but we can't afford a house!!

Do keep up, there's acres of similar insults on this forum aimed at people who voted to leave the EU.

tangled_metal

I think you're deliberately mixing lists there mamba but I've not got time to find the links to support that right now.

IIRC it's 6th biggest economy (thought it.had.dropped to 7th or 8th) which puts us up a lot higher than Cuba.

However we are the 26th richest country. That's of the figure is correct. Which would not put is anywhere near Cuba.

If we mix up size of economy with level of richness you can.see you're not comparing like for like.

BTW no country its perfect. All compromise on different things resulting in different areas if society performing better and worse than other countries. We probably have a better than average health service as much as we like to complain about it. We probably have a poor social care sector compared to other countries. Then again size factors into it. If we could have an economy per capita the equivalent to.Norway there would probably be a lot more money for social aspects.

Comparisons are only a guide and you can twist things to present the narrative that suits. It's what politicians do.

pblakeney

It may, or may not be directly related to Brexit but it is definitely related to the current Government. The second chart does not make for pleasant viewing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43154467

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Lefties can't do that. There is always a pot of untapped cash being hidden somewhere and they only need to find it - that is the jist of mamba's 'we are a rich country but where is the cash?' claim. Maybe he should try living in a properly poor country - say Cuba or Venezuela.

so we are not the 6th richest country in the world then? we either are or we are not and if you claim we are, then it is reasonable to ask where are the public services to go with 6th richest etc....

unlike your good self, i have lived in so called poor countries, stepping over dead bodies in morning was something i didnt think would happen in the UK, let alone MPs stepping over said folk, might even ruin their day, though doubtful.
Food banks arent something to be proud about either.

SC s est of 26th feels about right, so we ll go with that, interesting that you think the UK is down there with Venezuela and Cuba

How proud are you of the near £2 trillion national debt that we have racked up from spending beyond our means?

And you think we should be spending more...

mamba80

then get rid of Trident, HS2, reverse IHT and CorpT reductions, revalue council tax, reassess foreign aid...there are options to start reducing this debt and or spend it on the services we rely on.
the GFC was a result of corp greed, not socialism and the bail out of private industry wasn't something any gov would want to do however, they had no choice.....a banking collapse would have been worse.

at the end of the day we are supposed to be a civilised society, being able to operate a decent health service, road network, education and prison systems is a sign of that.

surrey_commuter

Shortfall wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Deriding groups that have different political views as a bunch of thickos is hardly a great idea. .

Of course, we get avocados, skiing holidays and nice cars on finance, but we can't afford a house!!

Do keep up, there's acres of similar insults on this forum aimed at people who voted to leave the EU.

I was starting to worry that had been missed

surrey_commuter

mamba80 wrote:

then get rid of Trident, HS2, reverse IHT and CorpT reductions, revalue council tax, reassess foreign aid...there are options to start reducing this debt and or spend it on the services we rely on.
the GFC was a result of corp greed, not socialism and the bail out of private industry wasn't something any gov would want to do however, they had no choice.....a banking collapse would have been worse.

at the end of the day we are supposed to be a civilised society, being able to operate a decent health service, road network, education and prison systems is a sign of that.

Chuck in two aircraft carriers, universal benefits such as Child, winter fuel and bus passes, tax exemptions for landowners, squeeze the pension lifetime limit, revisit HB and WTC and we will start to make a dent. Oh and regional pay for public sector and make all their pensions self funding. And end all farming subsidies.

It is not about being civilised, it is about what we can afford.

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us ) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.

Doesn't that kind of blow a hole in the assertion the centrist voters have on average a higher IQ?

Thing is, if Corbyn ever does get lucky, they will only get one term in power - then the country will learn its lesson about socialism until the next generation comes along that doesn't realise what it entails/cannot remember what happened the last time.

If he does get lucky, he has already threatened the press who had the temerity to publish the Czech story that changes will be made. So perhaps the public under Jezza would only get state approved news.
He didn't just idle away his time with Abbott in '70s E Germany did he?

Maybe Captain Birdseye should come clean about how many times he met this Czech spy and exactly what they talked about. That might stop the speculation in the press which to be honest should be holding politicians to account, especially when they have been allegedly colluding with hostile regimes.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us ) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.

Doesn't that kind of blow a hole in the assertion the centrist voters have on average a higher IQ?

Thing is, if Corbyn ever does get lucky, they will only get one term in power - then the country will learn its lesson about socialism until the next generation comes along that doesn't realise what it entails/cannot remember what happened the last time.

If he does get lucky, he has already threatened the press who had the temerity to publish the Czech story that changes will be made. So perhaps the public under Jezza would only get state approved news.
He didn't just idle away his time with Abbott in '70s E Germany did he?

Maybe Captain Birdseye should come clean about how many times he met this Czech spy and exactly what they talked about. That might stop the speculation in the press which to be honest should be holding politicians to account, especially when they have been allegedly colluding with hostile regimes.

I think he's already said, it was once or twice for about an hour. Sarkocy - the guy making the claims that he'd recruited Corbyn - claims it was more, and that through Corbyn he knew what Margaret Thatcher had for breakfast, lunch and dinner and what she would wear next day. But then he also reportedly claimed to have set up the Live Aid concert through contacts with Nelson Mandela.

Clearly Mr Sarkocy is a very trustworthy source.

I'm surprised even Corbyn is responding to it seriously.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?

This is the question you should be asking.

Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us ) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.

Doesn't that kind of blow a hole in the assertion the centrist voters have on average a higher IQ?

Thing is, if Corbyn ever does get lucky, they will only get one term in power - then the country will learn its lesson about socialism until the next generation comes along that doesn't realise what it entails/cannot remember what happened the last time.

If he does get lucky, he has already threatened the press who had the temerity to publish the Czech story that changes will be made. So perhaps the public under Jezza would only get state approved news.
He didn't just idle away his time with Abbott in '70s E Germany did he?

Maybe Captain Birdseye should come clean about how many times he met this Czech spy and exactly what they talked about. That might stop the speculation in the press which to be honest should be holding politicians to account, especially when they have been allegedly colluding with hostile regimes.

I think he's already said, it was once or twice for about an hour. Sarkocy - the guy making the claims that he'd recruited Corbyn - claims it was more, and that through Corbyn he knew what Margaret Thatcher had for breakfast, lunch and dinner and what she would wear next day. But then he also reportedly claimed to have set up the Live Aid concert through contacts with Nelson Mandela.

Clearly Mr Sarkocy is a very trustworthy source.

I'm surprised even Corbyn is responding to it seriously.

We know they met - that is not denied. So why doesn't Corbyn come clean and tell us what was discussed?

tangled_metal

Why don't ppl just stop trying to make a story out of nothing such as this fantasist Czech guy? As much as I want Corbyn to disappear from politics I just find this spy claim totally pathetic and clutching at straws.

Let me put this clearly. There are enough bad things in his past that he did so why do his detractors concentrate on allegations that have no corroboration and actually sound ludicrous claims from a source without credibility. Sharing platforms with terrorists, hypocrisy, not taking adequate steps to stop anti-semitic elements within the party, Ken Livingstone, McDonnell, etc.

Just my view. I'm completely opposed to him but the lack of credibility of these claims is forcing me against my politics to defend the guy. For the sake of a fellow rightie's sanity can we move on from talking about this Czech idiot and Corbyn?

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

then get rid of Trident, HS2, reverse IHT and CorpT reductions, revalue council tax, reassess foreign aid...there are options to start reducing this debt and or spend it on the services we rely on.
the GFC was a result of corp greed, not socialism and the bail out of private industry wasn't something any gov would want to do however, they had no choice.....a banking collapse would have been worse.

at the end of the day we are supposed to be a civilised society, being able to operate a decent health service, road network, education and prison systems is a sign of that.

Mamba/ Looky
I agree re HS2, not value for money. But we should keep and renew Trident.
I assume you are content to shelter under the US nuclear umbrella?

Stevo_666

Tangled Metal wrote:

Why don't ppl just stop trying to make a story out of nothing such as this fantasist Czech guy? As much as I want Corbyn to disappear from politics I just find this spy claim totally pathetic and clutching at straws.

Let me put this clearly. There are enough bad things in his past that he did so why do his detractors concentrate on allegations that have no corroboration and actually sound ludicrous claims from a source without credibility. Sharing platforms with terrorists, hypocrisy, not taking adequate steps to stop anti-semitic elements within the party, Ken Livingstone, McDonnell, etc.

Just my view. I'm completely opposed to him but the lack of credibility of these claims is forcing me against my politics to defend the guy. For the sake of a fellow rightie's sanity can we move on from talking about this Czech idiot and Corbyn?

Sure - as soon as we get a clear statement from Jezza on exactly what was discuseed. If he did nothing wrong then he will have no problem coming clean on this. Until then, the matter will rumble along and damage his reputation - which is what we want really.

rjsterry

Maybe he just can't remember. It's 30 years ago.

I know you'd love the story to be true, but I'm surprised this guy didn't claim that Elvis was at the meeting, too.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Maybe he just can't remember. It's 30 years ago.

I know you'd love the story to be true, but I'm surprised this guy didn't claim that Elvis was at the meeting, too.

Let's wait and see what Corbyn has to say then. Until then, there is political capital to be made out of this

ballysmate

Tangled Metal wrote:

Why don't ppl just stop trying to make a story out of nothing such as this fantasist Czech guy? As much as I want Corbyn to disappear from politics I just find this spy claim totally pathetic and clutching at straws.

Let me put this clearly. There are enough bad things in his past that he did so why do his detractors concentrate on allegations that have no corroboration and actually sound ludicrous claims from a source without credibility. Sharing platforms with terrorists, hypocrisy, not taking adequate steps to stop anti-semitic elements within the party, Ken Livingstone, McDonnell, etc.

Just my view. I'm completely opposed to him but the lack of credibility of these claims is forcing me against my politics to defend the guy. For the sake of a fellow rightie's sanity can we move on from talking about this Czech idiot and Corbyn?

No idea what Jezza and his Czech mate discussed. It could have been about who should play centre forward for Slovak Bratislava for all I know. Jezza hasn't said.
Am i surprised that the Eastern Bloc showed a interest in a newly elected MP who showed sympathy for their cause? No.
Do I think Jezza passed on info? Probably not as at the time he was not in a position to do so. But agencies recruit people as assets for the future and Corbyn was going nowhere near power so was of no use to them so was perhaps dropped.
As someone suggested earlier, Lenin used the phrase 'Useful idiot' but Corbyn has never been considered useful bu anyone,with the possibility of Lansman and McClusky.

surrey_commuter

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

then get rid of Trident, HS2, reverse IHT and CorpT reductions, revalue council tax, reassess foreign aid...there are options to start reducing this debt and or spend it on the services we rely on.
the GFC was a result of corp greed, not socialism and the bail out of private industry wasn't something any gov would want to do however, they had no choice.....a banking collapse would have been worse.

at the end of the day we are supposed to be a civilised society, being able to operate a decent health service, road network, education and prison systems is a sign of that.

Mamba/ Looky
I agree re HS2, not value for money. But we should keep and renew Trident.
I assume you are content to shelter under the US nuclear umbrella?

We can’t launch Trident without US approval so it amounts to the same thing. It is £200bn to “punch above our weigh to” we should grow up and accept our place in the new pecking order.

Sorry wrong Acct

pblakeney

This whole Corbyn story leaves me asking just the one question.
What has been going on in the background?
“Today is a good day to release news” kind of thing.

surrey_commuter

Read a fantastic suggestion that Corbyn is not a leftie spy. He is an Mi5 sleeper who is desperately looking for a way out.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Maybe he just can't remember. It's 30 years ago.

I know you'd love the story to be true, but I'm surprised this guy didn't claim that Elvis was at the meeting, too.

Let's wait and see what Corbyn has to say then. Until then, there is political capital to be made out of this

It must be a relief that there's a distraction from the Cabinet's attempts to come up with a plan they can agree on