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rjsterry wrote:mamba80 wrote:Tangled Metal wrote:Corbyn isn't on power so can't take us out but correct me if I'm wrong he's committed Labour to uphold the referendum result so he's part of take us out surely? It's not like he's standing up for his principles and fighting to remain. I.believe he's a record on being against the EU. So keep quiet on it, let Tories take us out (like he really wants no doubt) then when it goes badly take advantage to win the GE perhaps? All he has to do is not to take too strong a view or comments.
Even the Liberals are committed to up hold the result, thats not the question now, though i wish it were.
JC has recently said he wants the UK to be in a CU, he needs to flesh this out, however, his job isnt to support the Tories or give them ideas is it? they got us into this mess, they r in power and they should sort it out or step aside.
I dont know about you TM but i get the impression they have no real ideas about what they want, they ve plenty of things they dont ie SM, CU and ECJ but even this seems to change on a daily basis dependant on who is making the latest key note speech or whether the ERG raise their ugly head and extreme views.
all very well trying to turn the spotlight onto Labour but we all need to focus on the Government, they have the nations future in their hands, brexit isnt something that can be reversed at the next GE, its for decades.
I'd say he needs to stop worrying about whether this or that will help the Tories and think about what would be best for the country. Hoping the opposition will self-combust and you can win by default is not the strategy of a leader.
it is a travesty that this even needs to be spelled out0 -
Long ago gave up on any politician having the solution for the UKs problems.... but i like the idea of a national education service/life long learning, investing in the nations infrastructure, removal of fees for nursing courses, reversing CorpT and IHT cuts.
Action on tuition fees too, its crazy that we expect a 22yo to carry 50k of debt into their working lives... the amounts owed in 2022 will be 160 billion, much of which will never be repaid, yet will blight the lives of kids for the next 30 years.... wtf are we continuing with such a failed policy? tory answer... a year long review...so, hook it into the long grass.
the tories offer no leadership and are out of ideas, brexit has left them hamstrung to the far right and the press.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:rjsterry wrote:I'd say he needs to stop worrying about whether this or that will help the Tories and think about what would be best for the country. Hoping the opposition will self-combust and you can win by default is not the strategy of a leader.
it is a travesty that this even needs to be spelled out
He isnt in power nor in a coalition, its not Labours job to help out the tories in a mess of their own making.... however if the tories offered a Gov of national unity to sort out brexit and he then refused for party benefit, then you d have a point, May has offered no such thing.0 -
mamba80 wrote:rjsterry wrote:mamba80 wrote:Tangled Metal wrote:Corbyn isn't on power so can't take us out but correct me if I'm wrong he's committed Labour to uphold the referendum result so he's part of take us out surely? It's not like he's standing up for his principles and fighting to remain. I.believe he's a record on being against the EU. So keep quiet on it, let Tories take us out (like he really wants no doubt) then when it goes badly take advantage to win the GE perhaps? All he has to do is not to take too strong a view or comments.
Even the Liberals are committed to up hold the result, thats not the question now, though i wish it were.
JC has recently said he wants the UK to be in a CU, he needs to flesh this out, however, his job isnt to support the Tories or give them ideas is it? they got us into this mess, they r in power and they should sort it out or step aside.
I dont know about you TM but i get the impression they have no real ideas about what they want, they ve plenty of things they dont ie SM, CU and ECJ but even this seems to change on a daily basis dependant on who is making the latest key note speech or whether the ERG raise their ugly head and extreme views.
all very well trying to turn the spotlight onto Labour but we all need to focus on the Government, they have the nations future in their hands, brexit isnt something that can be reversed at the next GE, its for decades.
I'd say he needs to stop worrying about whether this or that will help the Tories and think about what would be best for the country. Hoping the opposition will self-combust and you can win by default is not the strategy of a leader.
He would argue that giving the tories the rope they need to hang themselves IS in the national interest? the danger is though that by saying little, he turns off his new found support.
He would be wrong, because by the time a GE is called it will be too late to undo the mess that we are increasingly in. He's a ditherer. The government have a fag paper majority; he's not going to get a better chance to immediately influence government policy and he is pissing it up the wall.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
mamba80 wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:rjsterry wrote:I'd say he needs to stop worrying about whether this or that will help the Tories and think about what would be best for the country. Hoping the opposition will self-combust and you can win by default is not the strategy of a leader.
it is a travesty that this even needs to be spelled out
He isnt in power nor in a coalition, its not Labours job to help out the tories in a mess of their own making.... however if the tories offered a Gov of national unity to sort out brexit and he then refused for party benefit, then you d have a point, May has offered no such thing.
he could decide what Brexit looks like by sidelining (or going in with) the ERG. All he needs do is promise his MPs a free vote0 -
Shortfall wrote:mamba80 wrote:
Corbyn would make a far far better fist of Government than the current shower, even with his many faults but whether a Tory or Lab democratics should nt be supporting fake news.
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I'm no fan of May or the Conservatives but really? That's like having piles and reasoning that you'd be better off with herpes and having your legs amputated instead.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Philosophically speaking, if Jeremy Corbyn is the answer you must be asking the wrong questionShortfall wrote:mamba80 wrote:Shortfall wrote:mamba80 wrote:
Corbyn would make a far far better fist of Government than the current shower, even with his many faults but whether a Tory or Lab democratics should nt be supporting fake news.
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I'm no fan of May or the Conservatives but really? That's like having piles and reasoning that you'd be better off with herpes and having your legs amputated instead.
Lol! i d say right now the UK has all 3....
look at the NHS, education- no 23 in international maths tests, the housing crisis, adult social care (or lack of) the run down of defence, homelessness, road mtce, falls in std of living - low wages and rising inflation.
Tory policies have utterly failed, austerity hasnt led to increased financial stability, the opposite is true.
Last but certainly not least the disaster that is Brexit (another example of a weak tory party) the lack of policy, lack of leadership and splits in their party..... i really dont see how Labour would do worse.
Personally, i d have back Margret Thatchers tory party than the sham we have now.
Maybe. But if you think Jeremy Corbyn is the solution then you may be in for an unpleasant suprise.
We really don't want to find out the hard way what a hard left government would do to the UK."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
rjsterry wrote:
He would be wrong, because by the time a GE is called it will be too late to undo the mess that we are increasingly in. He's a ditherer. The government have a fag paper majority; he's not going to get a better chance to immediately influence government policy and he is pissing it up the wall.
huh? why does he want to influence Gov policy? he wants to get into power.
You are both blaming the Labour party for a 100% true blue policy, May can stand up this afternoon and cancel brexit, calling a GE or even just explain why it is a wrong headed policy.... she is a woman who campaigned to remain, she stated leaving would damage the country economically and damage the security of the country.... and even now, cannot bring herself to back brexit..... she doesnt believe in brexit.
You both need to direct your efforts to where the blame belongs.0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:We really don't want to find out the hard way what a hard left government would do to the UK.
You might not because you are apparently doing extremely well, unlike most people in the country.....
We are finding out what it is like under a hard right Government now and it aint good, all the tories are offering the 6th richest country in the world is further austerity, more cuts, cr@ppy education/health/public services/roads and brexit, a policy even FN's Marie LePen didnt support for France.
so the questions should be: are we really the 6th richest and if we are, who has this wealth? and are we being governed by the European Research Group or the Cabinet?0 -
mamba80 wrote:rjsterry wrote:
He would be wrong, because by the time a GE is called it will be too late to undo the mess that we are increasingly in. He's a ditherer. The government have a fag paper majority; he's not going to get a better chance to immediately influence government policy and he is pissing it up the wall.
huh? why does he want to influence Gov policy? he wants to get into power.
You are both blaming the Labour party for a 100% true blue policy, May can stand up this afternoon and cancel brexit, calling a GE or even just explain why it is a wrong headed policy.... she is a woman who campaigned to remain, she stated leaving would damage the country economically and damage the security of the country.... and even now, cannot bring herself to back brexit..... she doesnt believe in brexit.
You both need to direct your efforts to where the blame belongs.
You are quite correct in that the majority of the Conservative front benches wanted to remain in Europe and now find themselves bizarrely implementing a policy they hate. Ironically however Corbyn is in exactly the opposite position, having campaigned to leave the EU for his entire political life and now having to pretend that leaving is bad for the UK. So much for his alleged principles, his @rse fell out the first time he was tested.0 -
Yeah i know, very weird, you d have thought the trading block, workers rights, rules and regs of the EU would have been up corbyns street.... however, i suspect that once the reality of leave hit home, much like my Mum, he changed his mind....which is allowed...
After all, i would nt say i was a 100% supporter, it def needs major reform, do we want to be driving that reform or just left on the side as the train leaves the station? May has made her choice and she is waving it goodbye.
Labour and Corbyn are more a work in progress.... lol, which of course they can be, they aint in power.0 -
mamba80 wrote:rjsterry wrote:
He would be wrong, because by the time a GE is called it will be too late to undo the mess that we are increasingly in. He's a ditherer. The government have a fag paper majority; he's not going to get a better chance to immediately influence government policy and he is pissing it up the wall.
huh? why does he want to influence Gov policy? he wants to get into power.
You are both blaming the Labour party for a 100% true blue policy, May can stand up this afternoon and cancel brexit, calling a GE or even just explain why it is a wrong headed policy.... she is a woman who campaigned to remain, she stated leaving would damage the country economically and damage the security of the country.... and even now, cannot bring herself to back brexit..... she doesnt believe in brexit.
You both need to direct your efforts to where the blame belongs.
Why does he want to get into power if not to influence government policy? The parliamentary arithmetic gives him an opportunity to do something but for whatever reason he won't. May won't or can't face down the minority of Eurosceptics in her party. Neither of them are leaders.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
mamba80 wrote:Yeah i know, very weird, you d have thought the trading block, workers rights, rules and regs of the EU would have been up corbyns street.... however, i suspect that once the reality of leave hit home, much like my Mum, he changed his mind....which is allowed...
After all, i would nt say i was a 100% supporter, it def needs major reform, do we want to be driving that reform or just left on the side as the train leaves the station? May has made her choice and she is waving it goodbye.
Labour and Corbyn are more a work in progress.... lol, which of course they can be, they aint in power.
Hey changing your mind is a sign of strength not weakness and something I wish more politicians would do, or at least for the right reasons. As Maynard Keynes famously said, "When the facts change I change my mind, what do you do?". None of the facts about Europe have changed however (whichever side of the debate you sit on) and Corbyn's new stance on it is borne merely out of political expediency which is a bit lame when his USP was his supposed man of principle shtick.0 -
Quote of the day IMHO!mamba80 wrote:
Personally, i d have back Margret Thatchers tory party than the sham we have now.Shortfall wrote:mamba80 wrote:
Corbyn would make a far far better fist of Government than the current shower, even with his many faults but whether a Tory or Lab democratics should nt be supporting fake news.
.
I'm no fan of May or the Conservatives but really? That's like having piles and reasoning that you'd be better off with herpes and having your legs amputated instead.
If only we had a Thatcher. Wasn't there a time when May was being talked up as being like a modern Thatcher? Only for a short time.
BTW mamba80 I'm with you on that, I'd rather see a Thatcher government than anything around now. We haven't had a good prime minister since Thatcher! I bet stevo will agree with that view of yours!
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i didnt agree with a lot of what she did, esp over the miners, though no doubt necessary, it could have been done differently BUT she was a relatively middle of the road tory, on the other hand, May/Cameron/IDS are far right extremists in comparison.
you only have to look at Brexit, welfare reform, austerity to realise this, i do however disagree that Stev0 would welcome back a mark 2 MT, she was far too left wing for him...... lol!0 -
Shortfall wrote:mamba80 wrote:Yeah i know, very weird, you d have thought the trading block, workers rights, rules and regs of the EU would have been up corbyns street.... however, i suspect that once the reality of leave hit home, much like my Mum, he changed his mind....which is allowed...
After all, i would nt say i was a 100% supporter, it def needs major reform, do we want to be driving that reform or just left on the side as the train leaves the station? May has made her choice and she is waving it goodbye.
Labour and Corbyn are more a work in progress.... lol, which of course they can be, they aint in power.
Hey changing your mind is a sign of strength not weakness and something I wish more politicians would do, or at least for the right reasons. As Maynard Keynes famously said, "When the facts change I change my mind, what do you do?". None of the facts about Europe have changed however (whichever side of the debate you sit on) and Corbyn's new stance on it is borne merely out of political expediency which is a bit lame when his USP was his supposed man of principle shtick.
no they havent, though rather shamefully, i bet JC like a lot of politicians have come to realise what the EU and SM/ CU really mean? maybe like the farmers have too.
if it were only for political expediency, he d have became a labour Anna Soubry!0 -
Ah, good old Maggie. She did drag us out of a downward spiral caused by the last properly hard left government in this country and quite rightly put the unions back in their box. Best of all, she still torments lefties from beyond the grave 8)Tangled Metal wrote:
Quote of the day IMHO!mamba80 wrote:
Personally, i d have back Margret Thatchers tory party than the sham we have now.Shortfall wrote:mamba80 wrote:
Corbyn would make a far far better fist of Government than the current shower, even with his many faults but whether a Tory or Lab democratics should nt be supporting fake news.
.
I'm no fan of May or the Conservatives but really? That's like having piles and reasoning that you'd be better off with herpes and having your legs amputated instead.
If only we had a Thatcher. Wasn't there a time when May was being talked up as being like a modern Thatcher? Only for a short time.
BTW mamba80 I'm with you on that, I'd rather see a Thatcher government than anything around now. We haven't had a good prime minister since Thatcher! I bet stevo will agree with that view of yours!
She also would have ripped Corbyn to pieces for the utter sh1t that he spouted about the financial sector in the last day."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
All arguably true but a few things she never did .....Brexit and privatise disability assessments, she also funded/staffed the Prison service and unlike the present tory fcukwit, she had for most of her career, judgement... she knew how hard and on what to push the EU, didnt take cases to the Supreme court (house of lords back then) and lose, unlike May today, nor was she thick enough to throw away a working majority on the altar of ego.
How on earth did the once great Conservative party descend to such depths?
Seen in the light of history, MT was middle of the road, one nation tory, even Blair admired her.0 -
However the solution to the Tory issue isn't to go back to what was before MT. I don't see another Michael Foot type is the answer.0
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Most of us would suffer.mamba80 wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:We really don't want to find out the hard way what a hard left government would do to the UK.
You might not because you are apparently doing extremely well, unlike most people in the country...."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
This is the question you should be asking.mamba80 wrote:
How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?
Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team. 1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Rather like Brexit, then.Stevo 666 wrote:0 -
rjsterry wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
This is the question you should be asking.mamba80 wrote:
How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?
Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.
Hardly, we ve the tories, promising tax cuts (and delivering) for companies and wealthy individuals, for the rest of us, more austerity, an NHS facing crisis and when is own inspectorate say dozens of people have died in corridors waiting for treatment, what else can it be? then of course Brexit.. all of this is an open door for any opposition.
We keep getting told we are the 6th richest country in the world despite the GFC ... yet so few feel that, so Labour are promising a more hopeful vision.
all i hear from yourself, Stev0 etc etc is labour will take us back to the 70s, its scare stories... well the tories are taking us back to the 1870s...Victorian jail conditions and suicides, disability assessments, parents paying for basic teaching material in schools, huge care home fees for our elderly, roads fit for a horse an cart.
you guys have no vision for the country, non at all, corbyn does and until the tories start delivering on Mays wonderful rhetoric a Labour Gov is a possibility.0 -
mamba80 wrote:rjsterry wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
This is the question you should be asking.mamba80 wrote:
How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?
Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.
Hardly, we ve the tories, promising tax cuts (and delivering) for companies and wealthy individuals, for the rest of us, more austerity, an NHS facing crisis and when is own inspectorate say dozens of people have died in corridors waiting for treatment, what else can it be? then of course Brexit.. all of this is an open door for any opposition.
We keep getting told we are the 6th richest country in the world despite the GFC ... yet so few feel that, so Labour are promising a more hopeful vision.
all i hear from yourself, Stev0 etc etc is labour will take us back to the 70s, its scare stories... well the tories are taking us back to the 1870s...Victorian jail conditions and suicides, disability assessments, parents paying for basic teaching material in schools, huge care home fees for our elderly, roads fit for a horse an cart.
you guys have no vision for the country, non at all, corbyn does and until the tories start delivering on Mays wonderful rhetoric a Labour Gov is a possibility.
this is a meaningless stat thrown about by Brexiteers who hark back to the days of the Empire (but you know that)
More relevant is GDP per head on which we are 26th richest in the world but as many ahead of us are tiny states with massive oil wealth we really are not doing that badly.
This leaves the possibility that this is what it feels like to live in one of the richest countries on the planet and that people need to accept. And that is even before you allow for the fact that we invariably run at a loss and are nearly £2trn in debt.
Arguing to spend extra money for everything makes no sense. You should balance your argument by saying where you would save money or realistically raise more.
Corbyn is popular because he promises to spend more. And surprise surprise a bunch of thickos unable to think through his actions to the likely conclusion will vote for him0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:mamba80 wrote:rjsterry wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
This is the question you should be asking.mamba80 wrote:
How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?
Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.
Hardly, we ve the tories, promising tax cuts (and delivering) for companies and wealthy individuals, for the rest of us, more austerity, an NHS facing crisis and when is own inspectorate say dozens of people have died in corridors waiting for treatment, what else can it be? then of course Brexit.. all of this is an open door for any opposition.
We keep getting told we are the 6th richest country in the world despite the GFC ... yet so few feel that, so Labour are promising a more hopeful vision.
all i hear from yourself, Stev0 etc etc is labour will take us back to the 70s, its scare stories... well the tories are taking us back to the 1870s...Victorian jail conditions and suicides, disability assessments, parents paying for basic teaching material in schools, huge care home fees for our elderly, roads fit for a horse an cart.
you guys have no vision for the country, non at all, corbyn does and until the tories start delivering on Mays wonderful rhetoric a Labour Gov is a possibility.
this is a meaningless stat thrown about by Brexiteers who hark back to the days of the Empire (but you know that)
More relevant is GDP per head on which we are 26th richest in the world but as many ahead of us are tiny states with massive oil wealth we really are not doing that badly.
This leaves the possibility that this is what it feels like to live in one of the richest countries on the planet and that people need to accept. And that is even before you allow for the fact that we invariably run at a loss and are nearly £2trn in debt.
Arguing to spend extra money for everything makes no sense. You should balance your argument by saying where you would save money or realistically raise more.
Corbyn is popular because he promises to spend more. And surprise surprise a bunch of thickos unable to think through his actions to the likely conclusion will vote for him
^^^^^^^^^^
This0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
This is the question you should be asking.mamba80 wrote:
How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?
Idiots joining the Labour party and voting for him had something to do with it I would guess.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Stevo is not stupid, he's just a clever guy whose supposedly amusing wheeze has backfired spectacularly. It can only get worse by there actually being a Corbyn government. It's bad.enough there's a Corbyn opposition. As much as I.think I.might like a Tory government with a huge majority (we don't have this BTW) I have learnt the hard way that a poor opposition creates a poor government. Checks and balances as the Americans like to say!0
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mamba80 wrote:rjsterry wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
This is the question you should be asking.mamba80 wrote:
How on earth did the once almost plausible Labour party descend to such hard line socialist shyte?
Cameron and then May not making a very good go of it? For a lot of people (not everyone as you keep reminding us) 8 years of not really fully recovering from the financial crisis have maybe pushed a lot of centrist/non-aligned voters to think "f*** it; how bad can it be?" and look for something different. That's provided the opening for Corbyn and Momentum to exploit. For all his poor leadership qualities, he has a very good 'marketing' team.
Hardly, we ve the tories, promising tax cuts (and delivering) for companies and wealthy individuals, for the rest of us, more austerity, an NHS facing crisis and when is own inspectorate say dozens of people have died in corridors waiting for treatment, what else can it be? then of course Brexit.. all of this is an open door for any opposition.
We keep getting told we are the 6th richest country in the world despite the GFC ... yet so few feel that, so Labour are promising a more hopeful vision.
all i hear from yourself, Stev0 etc etc is labour will take us back to the 70s, its scare stories... well the tories are taking us back to the 1870s...Victorian jail conditions and suicides, disability assessments, parents paying for basic teaching material in schools, huge care home fees for our elderly, roads fit for a horse an cart.
you guys have no vision for the country, non at all, corbyn does and until the tories start delivering on Mays wonderful rhetoric a Labour Gov is a possibility.
I'm not sure I follow you. You start by saying I'm wrong, then put forward more or less the same argument as me. We both agree that the current government is doing a poor job; where we differ is that I think that what Corbyn is offering sounds nice, but is not realisable.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
"May's wonderful rhetoric". She'll be happy with that.0
