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Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I'm trying to work out what mixture of spineless and clueless accounts for Labour's current 'policy' on Brexit.

About the same as the equally w@nk Tory policy, I suspect.

Of course the Lib Dem policy is great; all they need to make it work is a time machine to go back and fix the referendum result

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

https://www.conservatives.com/planforbrexit

and Labours.....

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

Both seem to be a collection of platitudes to appease both wings of their respective parties BUT as Stev0 is keen to remind us all, its the Tories who are in power and from whom we require clear, strong and stable leadership from....

its a very fluid situation though isnt? very hard for either side to take a fixed position, events will no doubt dictate the final outcomes.

And the alternative is...

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

https://www.conservatives.com/planforbrexit

and Labours.....

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

Both seem to be a collection of platitudes to appease both wings of their respective parties BUT as Stev0 is keen to remind us all, its the Tories who are in power and from whom we require clear, strong and stable leadership from....

its a very fluid situation though isnt? very hard for either side to take a fixed position, events will no doubt dictate the final outcomes.

And the alternative is...

i was pointing out that no one has a "policy" on brexit, its a known, unknown and absolutely no good moaning at anyone other than the Government.

you guys caused this division, sort it out.....

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I'm trying to work out what mixture of spineless and clueless accounts for Labour's current 'policy' on Brexit.

About the same as the equally w@nk Tory policy, I suspect.

Of course the Lib Dem policy is great; all they need to make it work is a time machine to go back and fix the referendum result

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It’s a bummer. Populism isn’t usually good governanceZ .

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I'm trying to work out what mixture of spineless and clueless accounts for Labour's current 'policy' on Brexit.

About the same as the equally w@nk Tory policy, I suspect.

Well not really. Surely Labour's policy is not to have a policy, because it enables them to sit back and take advantage of the mess the Tories are getting themselves into?

That’s a tactic.

It’s currently about as harmful as Tory (at least, as harmful as is possible in opposition)as it is allowing the nutters on the extreme fringes of both parties free reign.

Tories ought to be kept honest and near the centre given the message the electorate sent in the last election.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

https://www.conservatives.com/planforbrexit

and Labours.....

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

Both seem to be a collection of platitudes to appease both wings of their respective parties BUT as Stev0 is keen to remind us all, its the Tories who are in power and from whom we require clear, strong and stable leadership from....

its a very fluid situation though isnt? very hard for either side to take a fixed position, events will no doubt dictate the final outcomes.

And the alternative is...

i was pointing out that no one has a "policy" on brexit, its a known, unknown and absolutely no good moaning at anyone other than the Government.

you guys caused this division, sort it out.....

You mean the people who voted for it?

ballysmate

Others who think that the Labour policy is to have no policy.
But as I said earlier, Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty and Maastricht so no great surprise that he is still not an avid campaigner to remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -coalition

God forbid he had won power at the last election, but it would have been interesting to see the reaction of some of the more ardent anti Tories on here, if their messiah to save us all from a hard or any Brexit was the person who had most consistently expressed his anti EU views both from the chamber and the voting lobby.

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

Others who think that the Labour policy is to have no policy.
But as I said earlier, Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty and Maastricht so no great surprise that he is still not an avid campaigner to remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -coalition

God forbid he had won power at the last election, but it would have been interesting to see the reaction of some of the more ardent anti Tories on here, if their messiah to save us all from a hard or any Brexit was the person who had most consistently expressed his anti EU views both from the chamber and the voting lobby.

He's awful, and just like the Tories have been hijacked by the far right, so have Labour by the far left.

The centrist MPs are doing a pretty awful job or trying to hold the centre line.

Once upon a time people would look to the Lib Dems for that in this instance, but alas, they don't get the votes.

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

Others who think that the Labour policy is to have no policy.
But as I said earlier, Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty and Maastricht so no great surprise that he is still not an avid campaigner to remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -coalition

God forbid he had won power at the last election, but it would have been interesting to see the reaction of some of the more ardent anti Tories on here, if their messiah to save us all from a hard or any Brexit was the person who had most consistently expressed his anti EU views both from the chamber and the voting lobby.

He isnt my Messiah at all, he is just more in line with my thinking, rather than just sticking with the same politics that has failed this country for decades, seen most clearly this winter (and in general) in the entirely predictable state of the NHS.

had labour won the dynamics would be very different though wouldnt they?
that new intake of Labour MPs would be shaping policy in their image, likely as not, a more moderate approach to leaving the EU.

17m voted to leave the EU, thats the only thing we know, whether they wanted EFTA, Canada +++ or no deal and WTO, we do not know, those Q's werent on the ballot paper, what brexit you want very much depends on your own ppov.

surrey_commuter

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Others who think that the Labour policy is to have no policy.
But as I said earlier, Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty and Maastricht so no great surprise that he is still not an avid campaigner to remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -coalition

God forbid he had won power at the last election, but it would have been interesting to see the reaction of some of the more ardent anti Tories on here, if their messiah to save us all from a hard or any Brexit was the person who had most consistently expressed his anti EU views both from the chamber and the voting lobby.

He isnt my Messiah at all, he is just more in line with my thinking, rather than just sticking with the same politics that has failed this country for decades, seen most clearly this winter (and in general) in the entirely predictable state of the NHS.

had labour won the dynamics would be very different though wouldnt they?
that new intake of Labour MPs would be shaping policy in their image, likely as not, a more moderate approach to leaving the EU.

17m voted to leave the EU, thats the only thing we know, whether they wanted EFTA, Canada +++ or no deal and WTO, we do not know, those Q's werent on the ballot paper, what brexit you want very much depends on your own ppov.

If we have had decades of failure what would success look like?

rjsterry

I dunno, I thought most of the '00s was not too bad.

pinno

rjsterry wrote:

I dunno, I thought most of the '00s was not too bad.

I used to queue at the builder's yard. Now I don't need to and they'll deliver within 24 hours, free.

So it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

ballysmate

rjsterry wrote:

I dunno, I thought most of the '00s was not too bad.

Oh that would be the decade that saw us sell gold reserves when the market was at its lowest and ran up all the debt that we are now saddled with, resulting in the note left by LiamByrne saying there is FA left would it?

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I dunno, I thought most of the '00s was not too bad.

Oh that would be the decade that saw us sell gold reserves when the market was at its lowest and ran up all the debt that we are now saddled with, resulting in the note left by LiamByrne saying there is FA left would it?

If you thought it was bad then mate, I have some news....

rick_chasey

And if we accept a lot of that debt growth in ‘08-‘09 was GFC related, and we’re criticising Corbyn’s policy in opposition here, shouldn’t we criticise both parties for pushing for less regulation in the banking sector in the run up to it? Particularly since the Tories, including Cameron, regularly brought up how “burdensome” regulation was to the banking sector whilst in opposition.


(FWIW, the state of the banking system was a regular feature of Lib Dem questioning long before the GFC)

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I dunno, I thought most of the '00s was not too bad.

Oh that would be the decade that saw us sell gold reserves when the market was at its lowest and ran up all the debt that we are now saddled with, resulting in the note left by LiamByrne saying there is FA left would it?

Hence the use of the word 'most'. Most of that debt was run up in the following decade.

FishFish

All very altruistic and of course Nobel Prize winningly astute.

surrey_commuter

FishFish wrote:

All very altruistic and of course Nobel Prize winningly astute.

Nobel Prize for what discipline?

rolf_f

Corbyn once again maximising his opportunities to do nothing and influence nobody: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 45736.html

rick_chasey

http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/wp-content ... Daniel.pdf

Young workers’ perspectives on the economy, crisis, the labour market and politics

mamba80

Surrey Commuter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Others who think that the Labour policy is to have no policy.
But as I said earlier, Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty and Maastricht so no great surprise that he is still not an avid campaigner to remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -coalition

God forbid he had won power at the last election, but it would have been interesting to see the reaction of some of the more ardent anti Tories on here, if their messiah to save us all from a hard or any Brexit was the person who had most consistently expressed his anti EU views both from the chamber and the voting lobby.

He isnt my Messiah at all, he is just more in line with my thinking, rather than just sticking with the same politics that has failed this country for decades, seen most clearly this winter (and in general) in the entirely predictable state of the NHS.

had labour won the dynamics would be very different though wouldnt they?
that new intake of Labour MPs would be shaping policy in their image, likely as not, a more moderate approach to leaving the EU.

17m voted to leave the EU, thats the only thing we know, whether they wanted EFTA, Canada +++ or no deal and WTO, we do not know, those Q's werent on the ballot paper, what brexit you want very much depends on your own ppov.

If we have had decades of failure what would success look like?

i ll make it clearer, in particular, the NHS.... you think the NHS has been a success story? i dont.

but take it wider, housing - both rental and overall cost, transport, public transport.

of course if you r ceo of Persimmon.... then yes the UK is a glowing success story.

https://www.ft.com/content/c9f88bf8-e17 ... 1c2175f5ce

apparently the reason why house builders like Persimmon have done so well is because of various tax payer funded scheme to buy houses, schemes that only the middle classes can really afford to join, despite them builder what many in the industry consider shocking build quality and poor reg on insulation.

Its no real surprise that Labour under Corbyn has seen a huge rise in its popularity, whether its enough to win the next GE... but if May (or rather the real PM B Johnson) keeps employing people like Toby Young who believe in eugenics, then why not?

Ricks graph illustrates the myth that the Tories know how to manage an economy.

surrey_commuter

mamba80 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Others who think that the Labour policy is to have no policy.
But as I said earlier, Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty and Maastricht so no great surprise that he is still not an avid campaigner to remain.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -coalition

God forbid he had won power at the last election, but it would have been interesting to see the reaction of some of the more ardent anti Tories on here, if their messiah to save us all from a hard or any Brexit was the person who had most consistently expressed his anti EU views both from the chamber and the voting lobby.

He isnt my Messiah at all, he is just more in line with my thinking, rather than just sticking with the same politics that has failed this country for decades, seen most clearly this winter (and in general) in the entirely predictable state of the NHS.

had labour won the dynamics would be very different though wouldnt they?
that new intake of Labour MPs would be shaping policy in their image, likely as not, a more moderate approach to leaving the EU.

17m voted to leave the EU, thats the only thing we know, whether they wanted EFTA, Canada +++ or no deal and WTO, we do not know, those Q's werent on the ballot paper, what brexit you want very much depends on your own ppov.

If we have had decades of failure what would success look like?

i ll make it clearer, in particular, the NHS.... you think the NHS has been a success story? i dont.

but take it wider, housing - both rental and overall cost, transport, public transport.

of course if you r ceo of Persimmon.... then yes the UK is a glowing success story.

https://www.ft.com/content/c9f88bf8-e17 ... 1c2175f5ce

apparently the reason why house builders like Persimmon have done so well is because of various tax payer funded scheme to buy houses, schemes that only the middle classes can really afford to join, despite them builder what many in the industry consider shocking build quality and poor reg on insulation.

Its no real surprise that Labour under Corbyn has seen a huge rise in its popularity, whether its enough to win the next GE... but if May (or rather the real PM B Johnson) keeps employing people like Toby Young who believe in eugenics, then why not?

Ricks graph illustrates the myth that the Tories know how to manage an economy.

OK so we need to look at the NHS, housing and transport since 1987 (that gives us 3 decades). Can we throw in growth and inflation so we can define failure and help us identify when we stop failing?

I believe in minimal state intervention so would never advocate any of the help to buy schemes. The Govt should have far higher priorities on which to spend money than helping somebody buy a house

mamba80

Need to look at results and outcomes, rather than how much we spend.

Totally agree on buy to let.... when the Gov helps me buy a new Colnago C60, i ll support a well off couple, whose parents stump up the deposit to buy a £600k "starter home" unbelievable really and people swallow this con.

surrey_commuter

mamba80 wrote:

Need to look at results and outcomes, rather than how much we spend.

Totally agree on buy to let.... when the Gov helps me buy a new Colnago C60, i ll support a well off couple, whose parents stump up the deposit to buy a £600k "starter home" unbelievable really and people swallow this con.

surely you have to look at cost when looking at results and outcomes

Ride 2 Work will see them making a grand of your bike tax free

mamba80

Surrey Commuter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Need to look at results and outcomes, rather than how much we spend.

Totally agree on buy to let.... when the Gov helps me buy a new Colnago C60, i ll support a well off couple, whose parents stump up the deposit to buy a £600k "starter home" unbelievable really and people swallow this con.

surely you have to look at cost when looking at results and outcomes

Ride 2 Work will see them making a grand of your bike tax free

of course ...... but if we are wasting the money spent......... ?

i dont doubt as a nation we spend a lot of money on public services, is it well spent? would a small amount extra provide a far better service?

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

And if we accept a lot of that debt growth in ‘08-‘09 was GFC related, and we’re criticising Corbyn’s policy in opposition here, shouldn’t we criticise both parties for pushing for less regulation in the banking sector in the run up to it? Particularly since the Tories, including Cameron, regularly brought up how “burdensome” regulation was to the banking sector whilst in opposition.


(FWIW, the state of the banking system was a regular feature of Lib Dem questioning long before the GFC)

You seem to be assuming that burdensome UK bank regulation would have prevented the GFC.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

And if we accept a lot of that debt growth in ‘08-‘09 was GFC related, and we’re criticising Corbyn’s policy in opposition here, shouldn’t we criticise both parties for pushing for less regulation in the banking sector in the run up to it? Particularly since the Tories, including Cameron, regularly brought up how “burdensome” regulation was to the banking sector whilst in opposition.


(FWIW, the state of the banking system was a regular feature of Lib Dem questioning long before the GFC)

You seem to be assuming that burdensome UK bank regulation would have prevented the GFC.

not prevented but perhaps limited our exposure and subsequent costs?

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

And if we accept a lot of that debt growth in ‘08-‘09 was GFC related, and we’re criticising Corbyn’s policy in opposition here, shouldn’t we criticise both parties for pushing for less regulation in the banking sector in the run up to it? Particularly since the Tories, including Cameron, regularly brought up how “burdensome” regulation was to the banking sector whilst in opposition.


(FWIW, the state of the banking system was a regular feature of Lib Dem questioning long before the GFC)

You seem to be assuming that burdensome UK bank regulation would have prevented the GFC.

I'd argue had there been decent regulations in place, particularly regarding the Capital Adequacy Ratio, then the likelihood of a bailout being needed would have been dramatically lower.

So i'm not arguing it'd have prevented a GFC, but it would have prevented the need for bailouts in the UK.

Remember, the bailout package cost £500bn at the time.


Also, FWIW, and this is unrelated, for all the mistakes Brown & Darling made in the run up to the GFC, once the crisis hit, I think most people with an informed view thinks they did a good job in crisis management. And that's not a partisan statement.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

And if we accept a lot of that debt growth in ‘08-‘09 was GFC related, and we’re criticising Corbyn’s policy in opposition here, shouldn’t we criticise both parties for pushing for less regulation in the banking sector in the run up to it? Particularly since the Tories, including Cameron, regularly brought up how “burdensome” regulation was to the banking sector whilst in opposition.


(FWIW, the state of the banking system was a regular feature of Lib Dem questioning long before the GFC)

You seem to be assuming that burdensome UK bank regulation would have prevented the GFC.

I'd argue had there been decent regulations in place, particularly regarding the Capital Adequacy Ratio, then the likelihood of a bailout being needed would have been dramatically lower.

So i'm not arguing it'd have prevented a GFC, but it would have prevented the need for bailouts in the UK.

Remember, the bailout package cost £500bn at the time.


Also, FWIW, and this is unrelated, for all the mistakes Brown & Darling made in the run up to the GFC, once the crisis hit, I think most people with an informed view thinks they did a good job in crisis management. And that's not a partisan statement.

Whilst they did a good job it should be noted that the yanks made a profit on their bail-out

rick_chasey

Tbf, they were investing in more profitable banks .

Any person in FS could have told citi was a better place to buy equity in than RBS.