Join the Labour Party and save your country!

surrey_commuter

john80 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Tories delivered on (or are in the process of delivering) the voter's decision in the referendum. Thank those who voted leave. Tories just gave us the choice not make it themselves.

We've already tried to explain that to him but he doesn't want to listen.

Rubbish yet again.

Thatcher came under great pressure to restore the death penalty via a referendum, she resisted, though i disagree with much she did, she was a leader of this country and didnt follow the rabble.
the population would have loved it back.

We all now why DC gave in, i belive Rick once said if you had a referendum on lower taxes and higher spending it would win.

The PM s job is to lead, you seem to struggle with this concept.

Oh OK mamba, you're right. The Tories just triggered Article 50 off their own bat and the referendum was just a figment of our imagination :roll:

DC should nt have called a referendum, its far too complicated and permanent decision to be left to the electorate, as can be seen by all, undoing 44 years of membership is proving to be almost an impossibility.

of course thats for the other thread but tories do appear to be causing this country far greater harm than your bogyman JC has ever done, if May really doesnt want 5 years of labour, then she needs to reverse brexit, the eco damage to the UK by 2022 will be immense and it ll be the tories that ll get the blame.

JC has not ever been in power and therefore he can't really affect change with the exception of issues that most MP regardless of party would agree with. He did however sit as a Labour backbencher for a government who allowed a global financial crash to affect us so badly. That was pretty bad or is he immune from this as he was just a backbencher. I did not see any evidence of the Labour party shifting the economies focus away from finance to insulate us from this from 1997 onwards and I did not see Jeremy Corbyn making any great vocal argument for it either but then he is a London MP. Not what I would call leadership.

To summarise

JC has been never in power so can't affect change
JC responsible for GFC
London bad

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Tories delivered on (or are in the process of delivering) the voter's decision in the referendum. Thank those who voted leave. Tories just gave us the choice not make it themselves.

We've already tried to explain that to him but he doesn't want to listen.

Rubbish yet again.

Thatcher came under great pressure to restore the death penalty via a referendum, she resisted, though i disagree with much she did, she was a leader of this country and didnt follow the rabble.
the population would have loved it back.

We all now why DC gave in, i belive Rick once said if you had a referendum on lower taxes and higher spending it would win.

The PM s job is to lead, you seem to struggle with this concept.

Oh OK mamba, you're right. The Tories just triggered Article 50 off their own bat and the referendum was just a figment of our imagination :roll:

Are you really arguing that Brexit is not a Tory balls up?

Mamba yes, but I never had you down as a referendum denier.

surrey_commuter

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Tories delivered on (or are in the process of delivering) the voter's decision in the referendum. Thank those who voted leave. Tories just gave us the choice not make it themselves.

We've already tried to explain that to him but he doesn't want to listen.

Rubbish yet again.

Thatcher came under great pressure to restore the death penalty via a referendum, she resisted, though i disagree with much she did, she was a leader of this country and didnt follow the rabble.
the population would have loved it back.

We all now why DC gave in, i belive Rick once said if you had a referendum on lower taxes and higher spending it would win.

The PM s job is to lead, you seem to struggle with this concept.

Oh OK mamba, you're right. The Tories just triggered Article 50 off their own bat and the referendum was just a figment of our imagination :roll:

Are you really arguing that Brexit is not a Tory balls up?

Mamba yes, but I never had you down as a referendum denier.

Not your best deflection - points dropped for not asking a question

So if JC held a referendum on whether to leave the WTO and the Great British public voted Leave that would not be his fault?

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

They're not Stevo's team?

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Tories delivered on (or are in the process of delivering) the voter's decision in the referendum. Thank those who voted leave. Tories just gave us the choice not make it themselves.

We've already tried to explain that to him but he doesn't want to listen.

Rubbish yet again.

Thatcher came under great pressure to restore the death penalty via a referendum, she resisted, though i disagree with much she did, she was a leader of this country and didnt follow the rabble.
the population would have loved it back.

We all now why DC gave in, i belive Rick once said if you had a referendum on lower taxes and higher spending it would win.

The PM s job is to lead, you seem to struggle with this concept.

Oh OK mamba, you're right. The Tories just triggered Article 50 off their own bat and the referendum was just a figment of our imagination :roll:

Are you really arguing that Brexit is not a Tory balls up?

Mamba yes, but I never had you down as a referendum denier.

Its a tory c)ck of massive proportions, as well you know and they know it too! any Gov has to act in the "national interest" to quote May.
the basis of our representative democracy is... we elect them to act in the countries interest.

All it will achieve is to put JC and/or Labour into power and as much as i dislike a Tory Gov, its not a price worth paying.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Tories delivered on (or are in the process of delivering) the voter's decision in the referendum. Thank those who voted leave. Tories just gave us the choice not make it themselves.

We've already tried to explain that to him but he doesn't want to listen.

Rubbish yet again.

Thatcher came under great pressure to restore the death penalty via a referendum, she resisted, though i disagree with much she did, she was a leader of this country and didnt follow the rabble.
the population would have loved it back.

We all now why DC gave in, i belive Rick once said if you had a referendum on lower taxes and higher spending it would win.

The PM s job is to lead, you seem to struggle with this concept.

Oh OK mamba, you're right. The Tories just triggered Article 50 off their own bat and the referendum was just a figment of our imagination :roll:

Are you really arguing that Brexit is not a Tory balls up?

Mamba yes, but I never had you down as a referendum denier.

Not your best deflection - points dropped for not asking a question

So if JC held a referendum on whether to leave the WTO and the Great British public voted Leave that would not be his fault?

Yep, that's a pure trade arrangement so no other issues to consider as there was in Brexit. But hypothetical anyway.

Look at BREXIT this way - it probably would have happened at some point as further EU integration would have hardened UK public opinion until at some point something had to give. IMHO.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

That's an answer to a different question, Stevo (tut, tut ). Which of their policies do you think are brainless? Genuinely interested.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto#

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

Look at BREXIT this way - it probably would have happened at some point as further EU integration would have hardened UK public opinion until at some point something had to give. IMHO.

You still dont get it do you?

the Gov should have been arguing with the UK public on the benefits of the EU, not pandering to their xenophobic desires.

In any case, we ve got every opt out needed to avoid further integration and veto on anything else.

But the bottom line is that brexit will cause the very eco harm you believe Corbyn would bring.... yet you support this course of action :shock: and bring about a labour Gov.... bizarre.

surrey_commuter

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Tories delivered on (or are in the process of delivering) the voter's decision in the referendum. Thank those who voted leave. Tories just gave us the choice not make it themselves.

We've already tried to explain that to him but he doesn't want to listen.

Rubbish yet again.

Thatcher came under great pressure to restore the death penalty via a referendum, she resisted, though i disagree with much she did, she was a leader of this country and didnt follow the rabble.
the population would have loved it back.

We all now why DC gave in, i belive Rick once said if you had a referendum on lower taxes and higher spending it would win.

The PM s job is to lead, you seem to struggle with this concept.

Oh OK mamba, you're right. The Tories just triggered Article 50 off their own bat and the referendum was just a figment of our imagination :roll:

Are you really arguing that Brexit is not a Tory balls up?

Mamba yes, but I never had you down as a referendum denier.

Not your best deflection - points dropped for not asking a question

So if JC held a referendum on whether to leave the WTO and the Great British public voted Leave that would not be his fault?

Yep, that's a pure trade arrangement so no other issues to consider as there was in Brexit. But hypothetical anyway.

Look at BREXIT this way - it probably would have happened at some point as further EU integration would have hardened UK public opinion until at some point something had to give. IMHO.

stick to politics (or we will be arguing veto)

you know what my political leanings are but to me Cameron is a seditious cvnt who gambled with the future prosperity of this country for political gain. I have more respect for JC/Farage because at least they believe the sh1te they spout.

tangled_metal

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

That's an answer to a different question, Stevo (tut, tut ). Which of their policies do you think are brainless? Genuinely interested.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto#

If was an explanation to the first question and I quote "why do you think Liberals Democrat are brainless?". Well I added the missing question mark but that was a question and he answered it by linking it to Rolf's comment about brainless labour and tory voters.

Question asked and answered. It's the second part you need to wait for. I'm sure it'll come along soon... Right Stevo?

Ten pages into the future....

It's a long wait but it comes, sort of.

tangled_metal

Wasn't JC against the EC/EU throughout his political career? Then he campaigned the remain albeit so most voters never also heard him.

coopster_the_1st

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

rjsterry

Tangled Metal wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

That's an answer to a different question, Stevo (tut, tut ). Which of their policies do you think are brainless? Genuinely interested.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto#

If was an explanation to the first question and I quote "why do you think Liberals Democrat are brainless?". Well I added the missing question mark but that was a question and he answered it by linking it to Rolf's comment about brainless labour and tory voters.

Question asked and answered. It's the second part you need to wait for. I'm sure it'll come along soon... Right Stevo?

Ten pages into the future....

It's a long wait but it comes, sort of.

Aside from the slightly surreal scenario of us having a proxy argument on behalf of Stevo and Rick, are you saying that the answer to the first question is that brainless people are evenly distributed across the political spectrum, therefore some Lib Dems (members or voters?) must be brainless? Seems fair enough to me, but not much of an argument for or against supporting them.

rick_chasey

Coopster the 1st wrote:

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

what other issues would you have had a referendum on?

rjsterry

Coopster the 1st wrote:

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

There wasn't a necessity for a referendum. If people wanted to leave that badly they could have voted UKIP in large enough numbers for them to be able to form a government. That they didn't tells it's own story.

mamba80

Coopster the 1st wrote:

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

you can of course pick the year to get the result you want but the UK electorates love hate with the EU is shown in this link.
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/ ... hip-trends

Governments should be accountable, referendums remove that BUT if you are going to have them, than a min turn out and a min majority must be a condition too, protects both sides and limits the division a simple majority can cause, plus of course some standards on the infomation given to the public, lying by both sides, demeans democracy.

Anyhow, its for the other thread.

the end result of this decision will put Labour into power, something as a democrat, you ll support the public's decision

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

There wasn't a necessity for a referendum. If people wanted to leave that badly they could have voted UKIP in large enough numbers for them to be able to form a government. That they didn't tells it's own story.

That was the rational DC used for including the referendum in his manifesto, to get UKIP voters back on side. While expecting a remain vote.

tangled_metal

rjsterry wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

That's an answer to a different question, Stevo (tut, tut ). Which of their policies do you think are brainless? Genuinely interested.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto#

If was an explanation to the first question and I quote "why do you think Liberals Democrat are brainless?". Well I added the missing question mark but that was a question and he answered it by linking it to Rolf's comment about brainless labour and tory voters.

Question asked and answered. It's the second part you need to wait for. I'm sure it'll come along soon... Right Stevo?

Ten pages into the future....

It's a long wait but it comes, sort of.

Aside from the slightly surreal scenario of us having a proxy argument on behalf of Stevo and Rick, are you saying that the answer to the first question is that brainless people are evenly distributed across the political spectrum, therefore some Lib Dems (members or voters?) must be brainless? Seems fair enough to me, but not much of an argument for or against supporting them.

Surreal is good at times. But yes, I believe strongly in the brainless argument being good for all parties. Personally that's why I don't support any party just vote for the least worse one at the time I vote based on what I hear and read about them. That I hope takes me out of the brainless category.

It's all a pint half full situation anyway with politics I fear.

Now when do you think Stevo will answer the second part? On the 12th of never is odds on! Although he could be trawling the internet for links to prove his point instead of hiding money in some shell company in a warm part of the world. Our whatever he really does.

tangled_metal

I don't think UKIP was a way to decide on the EU. For a start many saw UKIP as being totally unpalatable. Plus a totally unproven party without any history of representing their constituencies outside of ironically a few MPs.

So leaving it to a general election and he single issue party IMHO removes any voice on the EU matter. It could only be decided as single issue referendum.

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

There wasn't a necessity for a referendum. If people wanted to leave that badly they could have voted UKIP in large enough numbers for them to be able to form a government. That they didn't tells it's own story.

That was the rational DC used for including the referendum in his manifesto, to get UKIP voters back on side. While expecting a remain vote.

Admittedly easy to say with hindsight, but the idea that UKIP could win enough seats to form a government - even as part of a coalition - seems far fetched.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

There wasn't a necessity for a referendum. If people wanted to leave that badly they could have voted UKIP in large enough numbers for them to be able to form a government. That they didn't tells it's own story.

That was the rational DC used for including the referendum in his manifesto, to get UKIP voters back on side. While expecting a remain vote.

Admittedly easy to say with hindsight, but the idea that UKIP could win enough seats to form a government - even as part of a coalition - seems far fetched.

I thought it was blindingly obvious at the time. Not that UKIP could win the election, but that the Tories could have lost. Hindsight says they needn't have worried. Maybe.

coopster_the_1st

Rick Chasey wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

We would have left the EU in the 2000's if Blair had offered a referendum then.

The British electorate being denied a vote on remaining in the EU is not democratic. The Tories allowed democracy to happen and gave the electorate the choice. The colour of the party does not matter in this decision.

Not to ask the question because you don't like what the answer may be is not how a modern first world country should act. We should be proud we live in a country that is mature enough to do this, not belittle it.

what other issues would you have had a referendum on?

I would going forward have a referendum on how the NHS should be run and funded. My opinion is that it is negatively affected by being a political football and should be at arms length to politics.

There is also the funding question as it is becoming a bottomless pit

coopster_the_1st

mamba80 wrote:

the end result of this decision will put Labour into power, something as a democrat, you ll support the public's decision

Calling the referendum is not the reason Labour will get back into power but the natural swing of politics over the long term. Then it will swing back to the conservatives.

I and many others just hope it will be a relatively sensible labour party and leader when that happens.

That is not the case at the moment IMO

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

That's an answer to a different question, Stevo (tut, tut ). Which of their policies do you think are brainless? Genuinely interested.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto#

You appear to be confusing brainless policies with brainless voters (the latter being Rolf's point and mine) Fyi - busy day, as you all know, tax doesn't just save itself

kingstongraham

Sorry, is someone suggesting this country is short of brainless idiots?

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

That's an answer to a different question, Stevo (tut, tut ). Which of their policies do you think are brainless? Genuinely interested.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto#

You appear to be confusing brainless policies with brainless voters (the latter being Rolf's point and mine) Fyi - busy day, as you all know, tax doesn't just save itself

Probably not enough ginger-haired people to ensure a LD government either. Or people called Steve to ensure a Conservative win. What is your point?

rolf_f

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

There definitely aren't enough brainless idiots to vote for a Lib Dem majority.

Who knows what will happen.

Curious, in the context of this thread, why you think Lib Dems are brainless.

What is it about their policies that are so brainless?

If Rolf is right there arena lot of brainless idiots out there who might vote Labour or Tory. I haven't seen any evidence that Lib Dem voters are more intelligent than people who vote for other parties, have you?

That's an answer to a different question, Stevo (tut, tut ). Which of their policies do you think are brainless? Genuinely interested.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto#

You appear to be confusing brainless policies with brainless voters (the latter being Rolf's point and mine) Fyi - busy day, as you all know, tax doesn't just save itself

Aye. And Stevos addition of the Lib Dems to my post is fair enough as well though arguably he might have been baiting me on the basis that my politics are fundamentally middle of the road so I would naturally tend to favour them. Which I would argue is a sign of intelligence (of course I would!) - ie being able to see the positive in policies driven by all three of these parties is smart as they all do have good ideas. But I would tend to think that the more extremist a mindset the less it can see the positive in other perspectives; and that is a bad thing. In this respect coalitions with the Lib Dems make sense but of course Camerons govt and the voters were too immature to see that. Had Cameron been less of an arse about the coalition then the Conservatives wouldn't have ended up in such a precarious position now. I have no sympathy for them!

mamba80

Coopster the 1st wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

the end result of this decision will put Labour into power, something as a democrat, you ll support the public's decision

Calling the referendum is not the reason Labour will get back into power but the natural swing of politics over the long term. Then it will swing back to the conservatives.

The vote, the following turmoil in the tory government, the snap GE and the disaster that up until now is Brexit, are far from the natural swing of politics.

JC in any normal period of time, would nt have had a cat in hells chance of being ahead in the 'polls, let alone odds on to win the next GE !

History will show that DC's decision was the worst thing possible he could have done for either the country or his party.