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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    Rolf F wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    You get my point right?

    The brightest and best don't go into politics.

    Sure, but I think that has less to do with pay and more to do with other factors.

    Its show business for ugly people. I don't think raising mps pay fixes that.

    That was my point. I suspect the problem is not the MPs but Govt. Ultimately, the shouty ones seem to get to the top - and they are all too often the least talented at anything other than telling people how great they are.
    In my mind the pay should reflect the importance and responsibilities, and then how rare it is to possess the relevant skills.

    The skills aren't rare though. It's always hyped up how rare those skills are but they aren't - it's just that the nature of the job doesn't find them. The people with those skills would probably want to do something more rewarding and valuable. They won't be in the city either for the same reasons.

    Skills to be the leader of a country aren't rare?

    Jeez.
    As evidence, the prosecution presents one Donald Trump.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    And we all agree he's f*cking sh!t, right?
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Even the New York Times is considering the possibility of Corbyn as PM: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opin ... orbyn.html

    Good
    It really is not. We don't want to find out the hard way how much damage socialism can do - after all we already know that from other cases around the world.

    That said, I would be in big demand and have one of the most secure jobs outside of the public sector if he ever did get in. (Always look on the bright side of life...)

    Vote Corbyn!!!!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opin ... bid2=lal13
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Even the New York Times is considering the possibility of Corbyn as PM: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opin ... orbyn.html

    Good
    It really is not. We don't want to find out the hard way how much damage socialism can do - after all we already know that from other cases around the world.

    That said, I would be in big demand and have one of the most secure jobs outside of the public sector if he ever did get in. (Always look on the bright side of life...)

    Vote Corbyn!!!!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opin ... bid2=lal13
    He needs your help because he's still a leftie loser:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41462546/corbyn-hasn-t-even-won-a-raffle-yet-says-scottish-tory-leader
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Even the New York Times is considering the possibility of Corbyn as PM: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opin ... orbyn.html

    Good
    It really is not. We don't want to find out the hard way how much damage socialism can do - after all we already know that from other cases around the world.

    That said, I would be in big demand and have one of the most secure jobs outside of the public sector if he ever did get in. (Always look on the bright side of life...)

    Vote Corbyn!!!!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opin ... bid2=lal13
    He needs your help because he's still a leftie loser:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41462546/corbyn-hasn-t-even-won-a-raffle-yet-says-scottish-tory-leader

    would nt have thought she d be your kind of Tory? only slightly to the right of JC.

    though Labour would have something to worry about with Davidson as leader, might even get me to vote tory.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    mamba80 wrote:
    would nt have thought she d be your kind of Tory? only slightly to the right of JC.

    though Labour would have something to worry about with Davidson as leader, might even get me to vote tory.
    I hardly think she's a socialist.

    Anyway, you're you're higher rate taxpayer, you need to look at who will act in your best interest rather than screw you over.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    would nt have thought she d be your kind of Tory? only slightly to the right of JC.

    though Labour would have something to worry about with Davidson as leader, might even get me to vote tory.
    I hardly think she's a socialist.

    Anyway, you're you're higher rate taxpayer, you need to look at who will act in your best interest rather than screw you over.

    Quite a narrow interpretation of one’s own interest there.

    More to one’s own interest than their take-home-pay.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    would nt have thought she d be your kind of Tory? only slightly to the right of JC.

    though Labour would have something to worry about with Davidson as leader, might even get me to vote tory.

    I hardly think she's a socialist.

    Anyway, you're you're higher rate taxpayer, you need to look at who will act in your best interest rather than screw you over.

    this is where we very much differ, i want a society where there is more equality, where kids dont have to live in temporary BnB, housed with drug addicts and the mentally ill. an educated workforce, a decent health service, where that little girl who was presented with a public debating award from Bill Gates, isnt burnt to death 50 days later because her life doesnt matter because she is black, poor, lives in the richest borough in the UK but in a fcuking unregulated death trap, with an funded fire service.... but so long as you pay a few quid less tax, all is good in your gated mind, you cant take it with you.

    whether JC can deliver, is another Q but one thing is certain, the self serving current batch of tories dont give a fcuk about anyone but themselves and the better off.

    as one tory minister is reported to have said to cameron "why build more council houses? they just breed labour voters" ffs....

    even with your narrow definition of self interest, the tories are failing on the economy and brexit is the biggest fail of all and who has bought us that?
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    would nt have thought she d be your kind of Tory? only slightly to the right of JC.

    though Labour would have something to worry about with Davidson as leader, might even get me to vote tory.

    I hardly think she's a socialist.

    Anyway, you're you're higher rate taxpayer, you need to look at who will act in your best interest rather than screw you over.

    this is where we very much differ, i want a society where there is more equality, where kids dont have to live in temporary BnB, housed with drug addicts and the mentally ill. an educated workforce, a decent health service, where that little girl who was presented with a public debating award from Bill Gates, isnt burnt to death 50 days later because her life doesnt matter because she is black, poor, lives in the richest borough in the UK but in a fcuking unregulated death trap, with an funded fire service.... but so long as you pay a few quid less tax, all is good in your gated mind, you cant take it with you.

    whether JC can deliver, is another Q but one thing is certain, the self serving current batch of tories dont give a fcuk about anyone but themselves and the better off.

    as one tory minister is reported to have said to cameron "why build more council houses? they just breed labour voters" ffs....

    even with your narrow definition of self interest, the tories are failing on the economy and brexit is the biggest fail of all and who has bought us that?
    My point is here that If everyone votes for what they think is best for them rather than pretending to be a saint and/or presuming to know what is good for others, we should get the outcome that suits the largest number of people.

    Also if you don't look after your own interests, who will? Not Corbyn in my case, or yours.

    That said, most people who understand economics and business know that JC will screw up the UK, so to that extent I am doing my bit for everyone :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    You r not though, despite Gov promises to find the money for re cladding of tower blocks, over a 100 nation wide, they ve renegaded on this... do we need another fire? probably :(
    the Gov should pay because they allowed lax regulation and enforcement in the first place but they are just lying yet again!

    7 years of tory Gov and things are not getting better, brexit will make the eco immeasurably worse, so expect more cuts

    You need realise that todays Labour party would be a middle of the road party in most of europe and the Tories more in common with FN in france or AFD in Germany.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,558
    mamba80 wrote:
    You r not though, despite Gov promises to find the money for re cladding of tower blocks, over a 100 nation wide, they ve renegaded on this... do we need another fire? probably :(
    the Gov should pay because they allowed lax regulation and enforcement in the first place but they are just lying yet again!

    7 years of tory Gov and things are not getting better, brexit will make the eco immeasurably worse, so expect more cuts

    You need realise that todays Labour party would be a middle of the road party in most of europe and the Tories more in common with FN in france or AFD in Germany.
    Making hysterical comparisons with FN and AfD isn't much of an argument. Things aren't much better because we can't seem to solve our productivity doldrums. We're not generating as much money, so there's less for a government of any stripe to spend.

    We won't be immeasurably worse off after Brexit. There are plenty of predictions and none are so apocalyptic. It might be a bit worse; there might even be a marginal improvement in some areas. I suspect it will neither be the disaster or the great new dawn that the loudest voices on each side seem to think. And again, if we can't solve the productivity problem it won't really matter which side of the fence we are on.

    Corbyn and May have both identified what everyone is fed up about. Neither seem to have a credible plan to deal with those problems; it's a choice between unachievable dreams or ineffectual fiddling around the edges.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    mamba80 wrote:
    You need realise that todays Labour party would be a middle of the road party in most of europe and the Tories more in common with FN in france or AFD in Germany.
    :lol:

    Sorry but I do have to call leftiebollox on that one.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • It's funny how those arguing most strongly for each side seem to be comfortably off ppl. The sort of ppl who will be OK no matter what. If I'm wide off the mark I'm sorry but mambo seems like he's well to do, retired (possibly or close to it with the pension to have a good retirement). Stevo has a well paid job, probably can afford what he wants, when he wants it even after paying in to his future retirement (which might be ten or fifteen years off) and paying for a good start for his kids.

    This might seem irrelevant but I contend that it is less of a danger if the wrong side gets in. Or if the right side gets in and make a mess of things. You're insulated against it.

    Personally I'm not in that situation. A mess of this country worse than we already have is going to hit my family more than yours I'd wager.

    So mambo is able to gamble on socialism. Stevo is able to gamble on Tories getting their act together. Tbh no gamble for you with a safety net. I'm another redundancy away from losing my house (my only money is tied up in there). I'm not in a bad place now but a country in a real mess means I could very easily get there.

    So personally I feel at need a real middle ground option between Tories and Corbyn. Where is that credible middle ground to come from? I regret not voting for Milliband now.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    rjsterry wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    You r not though, despite Gov promises to find the money for re cladding of tower blocks, over a 100 nation wide, they ve renegaded on this... do we need another fire? probably :(
    the Gov should pay because they allowed lax regulation and enforcement in the first place but they are just lying yet again!

    7 years of tory Gov and things are not getting better, brexit will make the eco immeasurably worse, so expect more cuts

    You need realise that todays Labour party would be a middle of the road party in most of europe and the Tories more in common with FN in france or AFD in Germany.
    Making hysterical comparisons with FN and AfD isn't much of an argument. Things aren't much better because we can't seem to solve our productivity doldrums. We're not generating as much money, so there's less for a government of any stripe to spend.

    We won't be immeasurably worse off after Brexit. There are plenty of predictions and none are so apocalyptic. It might be a bit worse; there might even be a marginal improvement in some areas. I suspect it will neither be the disaster or the great new dawn that the loudest voices on each side seem to think. And again, if we can't solve the productivity problem it won't really matter which side of the fence we are on.

    Corbyn and May have both identified what everyone is fed up about. Neither seem to have a credible plan to deal with those problems; it's a choice between unachievable dreams or ineffectual fiddling around the edges.

    in the context of stev0 making allegations that JC is a communist, it is a valid comparison, i ve read FN 's manifesto, quite a bit of which the Tories have already done!!! its not hysterical at all.

    Are you saying the Labour party wouldnt be a centre left european one?

    Your Vince Cable says that Brexit is amongst one of the biggest disasters the UK has done since WW2 .... so how much more serious do you want it to be?

    This country needs fundamental reform, we arent going to get it with the Tories.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    You need realise that todays Labour party would be a middle of the road party in most of europe and the Tories more in common with FN in france or AFD in Germany.
    :lol:

    Sorry but I do have to call leftiebollox on that one.

    Read their manifesto's..... you ll find far more in common with todays Tory party than you might think..... in fact with brexit, we are ahead of the FN.

    Corbyns policies are more in line with many centre left euro parties.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,370
    mamba80 wrote:
    This country needs fundamental reform, we arent going to get it with the Tories.
    I fear you might be wrong there, if by some miracle they don't implode, and the swivel-eyed loon wing of the party gets the upper hand. Look across the pond, and see what the GOP are up to - the ACA reform didn't pass because the proposed act cutting healthcare from 21m Americans didn't go nearly far enough for one wing of the Republican Party. I would like to think that that 'I'm-alright-Jack-so-screw-everyone-else' wasn't present in UK politics, but I'd not bank on it.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    It's funny how those arguing most strongly for each side seem to be comfortably off ppl. The sort of ppl who will be OK no matter what. If I'm wide off the mark I'm sorry but mambo seems like he's well to do, retired (possibly or close to it with the pension to have a good retirement). Stevo has a well paid job, probably can afford what he wants, when he wants it even after paying in to his future retirement (which might be ten or fifteen years off) and paying for a good start for his kids.

    This might seem irrelevant but I contend that it is less of a danger if the wrong side gets in. Or if the right side gets in and make a mess of things. You're insulated against it.

    Personally I'm not in that situation. A mess of this country worse than we already have is going to hit my family more than yours I'd wager.

    So mambo is able to gamble on socialism. Stevo is able to gamble on Tories getting their act together. Tbh no gamble for you with a safety net. I'm another redundancy away from losing my house (my only money is tied up in there). I'm not in a bad place now but a country in a real mess means I could very easily get there.

    So personally I feel at need a real middle ground option between Tories and Corbyn. Where is that credible middle ground to come from? I regret not voting for Milliband now.

    You are way wide of the mark, i ve seen both sides, poverty as well as relative wealth, as i ve children and their future is what concerns me, not mine, to me, having lived in a so called socialist country and a right wing one, its not a gamble at all, Brexit is a gamble and who is doing that?

    My self interest, as Stev0 says "might" be best served by the Tories, though i could argue with that! but i dont vote for what is best for me as an individual, society is what matters, if we arent careful we ll end up like a mini america.

    Yes Milliband would have been a great choice and if things go bad for you under a tory Gov, you will have a decimated welfare state to fall back on, even if Corbyn did one thing only and bought back council housing, at least you d have somewhere decent to live!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,558
    mamba80 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    You r not though, despite Gov promises to find the money for re cladding of tower blocks, over a 100 nation wide, they ve renegaded on this... do we need another fire? probably :(
    the Gov should pay because they allowed lax regulation and enforcement in the first place but they are just lying yet again!

    7 years of tory Gov and things are not getting better, brexit will make the eco immeasurably worse, so expect more cuts

    You need realise that todays Labour party would be a middle of the road party in most of europe and the Tories more in common with FN in france or AFD in Germany.
    Making hysterical comparisons with FN and AfD isn't much of an argument. Things aren't much better because we can't seem to solve our productivity doldrums. We're not generating as much money, so there's less for a government of any stripe to spend.

    We won't be immeasurably worse off after Brexit. There are plenty of predictions and none are so apocalyptic. It might be a bit worse; there might even be a marginal improvement in some areas. I suspect it will neither be the disaster or the great new dawn that the loudest voices on each side seem to think. And again, if we can't solve the productivity problem it won't really matter which side of the fence we are on.

    Corbyn and May have both identified what everyone is fed up about. Neither seem to have a credible plan to deal with those problems; it's a choice between unachievable dreams or ineffectual fiddling around the edges.

    in the context of stev0 making allegations that JC is a communist, it is a valid comparison, i ve read FN 's manifesto, quite a bit of which the Tories have already done!!! its not hysterical at all.

    Are you saying the Labour party wouldnt be a centre left european one?

    Your Vince Cable says that Brexit is amongst one of the biggest disasters the UK has done since WW2 .... so how much more serious do you want it to be?

    This country needs fundamental reform, we arent going to get it with the Tories.

    So, you are fighting nonsense with more nonsense? FN might be a bunch of frothing islamophobes, but their protectionist anti-globalist economic policies are if anything closer to John McDonnell than Phillip Hammond. If you think Vince Cable is right - and I don't, at least from an economic point of view; I just think it is a colossal waste of effort that will not produce the advantages claimed - why do you think Corbyn is the solution? He and McDonnell are a pair of old-school Bennites, who view the EU as a neo-liberal stitch-up for big business.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    the tories and FN immigration policies are quite similar, so we can agree the tories are also a bunch of Islamophobes? remember France hasnt the skills shortages we ve got, so have slightly tighter numbers.

    No i dont agree with Corbyns Brexit policy, however he will get a better reception from the EU and is willing to exlore other arrangments, that may well get us a better out come.

    Labours manifesto is hardly Bennite and thats what matters, come to that, neither is Corbyn, Mcdonnel just seems very angry lol!

    a quick glance through this and the tory party are to the right of these guys!

    https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/s ... ch_web.pdf
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,558
    You are kidding yourself, mamba.

    Here is a copy and paste from AfD's manifesto contents page

    7 | Culture, Language and Identity 45
    7.1 Preserve German Culture, Language and Identity 46
    7.2 German as Predominant Culture
    instead of Multiculturalism 46
    7.3 The German Language as Focal Point of our Identity 46
    7.4 Free Arts and Culture from
    the Influence of Political Parties 47
    7.5 In Favour of a Modern Media Policy: Abolish
    Broadcasting Fees for Citizens 47
    7.6 Islam and its Tense Relationship with our Value System 47
    7.6.1 Islam does not belong to Germany 48
    7.6.2 Tolerate Criticism of Islam 48
    7.6.3 End Foreign Financing of Mosques 48
    7.6.4 No Public Body Status for Islamic Organizations 49
    7.6.5 No Full-Body Veiling in Public Spaces 49

    I've just searched the 2017 Conservative manifesto and there is a single match for the word Islam:

    "Our enjoyment of Britain’s diversity must not prevent us from confronting the menace of
    extremism. Extremism, especially Islamist extremism, strips some British people, especially
    women, of the freedoms they should enjoy, undermines the cohesion of our society and
    can fuel violence."

    No mention of anything else remotely similar to the blood and soil nonsense of AfD.

    I think you can see the difference for yourself.

    If you want to despise the Tories, that's fine. I think it's pretty clear I'm no supporter, but claiming they are the same as AfD is risible.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    rjsterry wrote:
    You are kidding yourself, mamba.

    Here is a copy and paste from AfD's manifesto contents page

    7 | Culture, Language and Identity 45
    7.1 Preserve German Culture, Language and Identity 46
    7.2 German as Predominant Culture
    instead of Multiculturalism 46
    7.3 The German Language as Focal Point of our Identity 46
    7.4 Free Arts and Culture from
    the Influence of Political Parties 47
    7.5 In Favour of a Modern Media Policy: Abolish
    Broadcasting Fees for Citizens 47
    7.6 Islam and its Tense Relationship with our Value System 47
    7.6.1 Islam does not belong to Germany 48
    7.6.2 Tolerate Criticism of Islam 48
    7.6.3 End Foreign Financing of Mosques 48
    7.6.4 No Public Body Status for Islamic Organizations 49
    7.6.5 No Full-Body Veiling in Public Spaces 49

    I've just searched the 2017 Conservative manifesto and there is a single match for the word Islam:

    "Our enjoyment of Britain’s diversity must not prevent us from confronting the menace of
    extremism. Extremism, especially Islamist extremism, strips some British people, especially
    women, of the freedoms they should enjoy, undermines the cohesion of our society and
    can fuel violence."

    No mention of anything else remotely similar to the blood and soil nonsense of AfD.

    I think you can see the difference for yourself.

    If you want to despise the Tories, that's fine. I think it's pretty clear I'm no supporter, but claiming they are the same as AfD is risible.
    It always sounds better coming from someone who is not a tory supporter.

    RJS, I think you have gone above and beyond the call of duty on this one as mamba''s claim was so obviously wrong to anyone other than a deluded socialist that it didn't really need disproving :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,558
    Just been scanning the Labour 2017 manifesto. There's a lot about how awful Theresa May is, but less about what they want to do, except this:

    "We will scrap the Conservatives’
    Brexit White Paper and replace it
    with fresh negotiating priorities that
    have a strong emphasis on retaining
    the benefits of the Single Market
    and the Customs Union"

    So how does that square with this sentence on the next page:

    "Freedom of movement will
    end when we leave the European
    Union."

    Sounds a lot like what that chap with the blonde hair was saying. And even he seems to have admitted that this is no longer possible.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • My point mambo was that you and Stevo are insulated from tory and Labour mistakes if in power. Are you on just above minimum wage struggling with a mortgage and all the other household expenses a family containing school age kids? Or are you retired, nearly retired with grown up kids who are fending for themselves? Are you likely to lose your source of income through redundancy of the economy tanks? Or lost my job as a result of 2008. I nearly lost my job in the Blair years because of decisions made causing a bit of a downturn in the sector I was in.

    My point is most ppl on here are debating this as a kind of intellectual activity. Vague ideas of thinking of my kids / grand kids future is kind of still divorced from a dangerous government's effects. If your kids end up in trouble I bet you've got enough to help out

    This is all a guess and I could be overestimating your financial security. It is how I feel you guys are treating this. A cold, intellectual debate because of your position in life and financially.

    If I was to be in your position I'd still think Corbyn is a greater risk than the Tories despite their monumental mess that caused the Brexit situation. Not least because the EU is showing signs of moving towards the idea of controlled migration. Imagine without Brexit we could be a full EU member helping this progress towards a level of control that suits us too.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    rjsterry wrote:
    You are kidding yourself, mamba.

    Here is a copy and paste from AfD's manifesto contents page

    7 | Culture, Language and Identity 45
    7.1 Preserve German Culture, Language and Identity 46
    7.2 German as Predominant Culture
    instead of Multiculturalism 46
    7.3 The German Language as Focal Point of our Identity 46
    7.4 Free Arts and Culture from
    the Influence of Political Parties 47
    7.5 In Favour of a Modern Media Policy: Abolish
    Broadcasting Fees for Citizens 47
    7.6 Islam and its Tense Relationship with our Value System 47
    7.6.1 Islam does not belong to Germany 48
    7.6.2 Tolerate Criticism of Islam 48
    7.6.3 End Foreign Financing of Mosques 48
    7.6.4 No Public Body Status for Islamic Organizations 49
    7.6.5 No Full-Body Veiling in Public Spaces 49

    I've just searched the 2017 Conservative manifesto and there is a single match for the word Islam:

    "Our enjoyment of Britain’s diversity must not prevent us from confronting the menace of
    extremism. Extremism, especially Islamist extremism, strips some British people, especially
    women, of the freedoms they should enjoy, undermines the cohesion of our society and
    can fuel violence."

    No mention of anything else remotely similar to the blood and soil nonsense of AfD.

    I think you can see the difference for yourself.

    If you want to despise the Tories, that's fine. I think it's pretty clear I'm no supporter, but claiming they are the same as AfD is risible.

    Immigration:

    -A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.

    -A ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France

    -An end to the European Schengen Area, which gives free cross-border movement, and reinstatement of border checks.

    -A toughening of the requirements to get French citizenship, which the FN says should not be automatic, while insisting that applicants demonstrate a strong commitment to France and its language.

    -Zero tolerance of illegal immigration and an end to illegal immigrants’ rights to remain in France if they have been in the country for a given period.

    -Priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing.


    From the FN manifesto...... very similar to what is happening in the UK already or what we ve been promised after brexit..... are you saying the Tories dont want any of this????

    aside i never said they were the same, similar and in many respects we ve gone further, like leaving the EU.

    if you look beyond the headlines, plenty of the 3 parties members and supporters would be comfortable with most of each others policies.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    My point mambo was that you and Stevo are insulated from tory and Labour mistakes if in power. Are you on just above minimum wage struggling with a mortgage and all the other household expenses a family containing school age kids? Or are you retired, nearly retired with grown up kids who are fending for themselves? Are you likely to lose your source of income through redundancy of the economy tanks? Or lost my job as a result of 2008. I nearly lost my job in the Blair years because of decisions made causing a bit of a downturn in the sector I was in.

    My point is most ppl on here are debating this as a kind of intellectual activity. Vague ideas of thinking of my kids / grand kids future is kind of still divorced from a dangerous government's effects. If your kids end up in trouble I bet you've got enough to help out

    This is all a guess and I could be overestimating your financial security. It is how I feel you guys are treating this. A cold, intellectual debate because of your position in life and financially.

    If I was to be in your position I'd still think Corbyn is a greater risk than the Tories despite their monumental mess that caused the Brexit situation. Not least because the EU is showing signs of moving towards the idea of controlled migration. Imagine without Brexit we could be a full EU member helping this progress towards a level of control that suits us too.
    I can't speak for mamba on his situation, but don't see how being secure financially or job-wise lessens your ability to debate the issues or the validity of the argumentd. I'd even say that the ability to look at it objectively without your own personal worries coming into it is a positive.

    Backing any party is a punt to some extent but I think both you and I know that Corbyns Labour is less of a punt than a near dead cert disaster. So looking at this objectively, who are you going to vote for?

    I know that Labour would cost me a lot personally if they implement their manifesto promises and (no surprises) I am pretty sure that they would screw the country as well so for me it s a grade A no-brainer.

    (P.S. I have also post my job before. First in the early 90s recession. Best thing that ever happened as it forced me to change career, which in the long term was a very good move. Then in the mid 90s when my company was taken over - another good one which changed my direction in the current line of work and set me on the path I am now on).
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Where does the the “citizens of nowhere” speech come on the spectrum?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,558
    mamba80 wrote:

    You need to get your story straight; is it FN, AfD or UKIP? You also need to clarify whether you mean right wing economically or socially. They might all want to control immigration (even Labour have committed to end FoM to claw back the support they lost to UKIP), but there are big differences. FN's manifesto (ironically on my ISP's blocked list) is slightly more carefully worded than AfD to give the impression of mainstream appeal, but they are just the same bunch of France for the French isolationists that they have always been. I'm pretty sure there wasn't anything in the Conservative manifesto about promoting the birth rate (including outlawing same-sex marriage and surrogacy) of the native population to remove the need for migrant labour, or the introduction of an official version of the national history to be taught in schools.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    Where does the the “citizens of nowhere” speech come on the spectrum?
    I don't know what you are on about.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]