Giro Stage 10 - spoilers

fleshtuxedo

ThomThom wrote:

A puncture is obviously not an accident. Let's not get silly now.

Er, that's my point - he's been penalised under a rule that covers when a rider is dropped or involved in an accident. As the rule is written, a rider with a puncture or a mechanical shouldn't be penalised under it. I may of course have that wrong but that's how it looks.

thomthom

Ah, come on..

They can't put every single situation down in the books. They write accident or dropped because outside of that it goes without saying.

Fair enough, though- you did write you were nitpicking :-)

thegibdog

TailWindHome wrote:

So it would've been ok if they were riding clinchers?

smithy21

Above The Cows wrote:

smithy21 wrote:

It's a rule, it's been enforced. Not sure I am completely with Frenchie on this one but I can see the other side of the argument if for example they had just ignored it.
I don't see Porte as the sort of character to just throw in the towel.

The bedwetters and Contador's helmet brigade on here though. :roll:

But that is the whole point. They ignore numerous rule infractions that carry far more serious punishments every stage. People will question why this one was enforced.

I think it is fair that people are peeved at what appears to be an ad hoc application of the rules on the whims of those with the power to do so, just as in say the political arena people are also angered at such a haphazard exercise in power.

I am with Thom Thom on this one. Possibly too harsh on the sanction but I can see why they have penalised them.

By extension of the logic on here if they don't enforce some rules why bother with any of them. I think the point has been made that there are loads of things which people are penalised for on every stage- they just don't have much if any impact on the GC.

ddraver

Everyone gets why the rule has been applied. We re narked becasue the same, or very similar rules are ROUTINELY ignored by the commissars on a daily basis.


Just off the top of my head-
Meersman wheel change THIS giro - ignored
Qunitanta riding past a red flag gainng a minute and a half - ignored
TGV incident - ignored
Bertie's helmet - ignored
Astana - ok, not ignored, but unpunished

A gazillion magic spanners, sticky bottles, lifts/pulls off of cars etc etc - ignored

gweeds

ddraver wrote:

Everyone gets why the rule has been applied. We re narked becasue the same, or very similar rules are ROUTINELY ignored by the commissars on a daily basis.


Just off the top of my head-
Meersman wheel change THIS giro - ignored
Qunitanta riding past a red flag gainng a minute and a half - ignored
TGV incident - ignored
Bertie's helmet - ignored
Astana - ok, not ignored, but unpunished

A gazillion magic spanners, sticky bottles, lifts/pulls off of cars etc etc - ignored

Bingo.

Take away the fact that FF seems to miss this point because it's penalised Porte so he's all bouncy (and you can bet this wouldn't be the case if it was 5kgs Aru or Beefy Bertie) and that pretty much nails it.

Moreover, what this decision also does is have the potential to significantly affect the GC right in the middle of the second week whilst Aru seems able to carry on with a suspiciously strong Astana team that shouldn't even be riding. It's just very thick.

The_Boy

Above The Cows wrote:

Dolan Driver wrote:

The UCI have scored a major own goal against the sport with this decision.

As everyone has highlighted, does Contador now get the door after removing his helmet last Sunday?

The Giro now has a serious credibility issue for the second year in row. Rigoberto Uran got mugged last year after the commissaire couldn't remember if he had neutralised the race or not on the Stelvio descent. This year a race favourite is all but eliminated from the podium fight for an infraction of the rules which at best saved him 20 seconds whilst still losing time on the stage.

It appears the unwritten rules of cycling (which benefit everyone) are slowly being eroded by the stricter enforcement of the UCI rule book. Perhaps the stricter regime is being driven by the current obsession to conform with the perceived demands of political correctness, which seems to call for each and every rule to be enforced ruthlessly in every part of modern life. Common sense is sadly lacking here.

The thing is that there was nothing sinister behind the wheel change. The wheel was offered up because the two riders are friends and share the same nationality, not because SKY paid a visit to the Orica bus last week and broke out the cheque book to buy favours in the coming weeks.

DD.

I don't think its political correctness but an over reaction to the lack of enforcement of the rules during the 'doping era'. The fact that they in fact don't actually enforce the rules equally now is what makes it worse.

Yeah, of course it's nothing to do with political correctness. Why do people who bang on about PC gone mad think it's to blame for every single thing they disagree with. It's madness.

Anyway, as regards the application of the rules, I always get the impression that a lot of the rules are written with the subtext of "just so you don't take the piss, aye. *nudge nudge*, *wink wink*". It's why we have magic spanners, and sticky bottles, and riders drafting the team cars. And it's why we have a list published after every stage of token fines charged for minor infractions, and occasional riders being ejected when they do take the piss - riders ejected for holding on to team cars for example.

The amazing thing about his decision is that they have managed to take my least favourite team - and they really are, even below the dirty teams, and dubious teams and annoying teams - and make me feel sympathy for them. Which kind of says it all, really.

Macaloon

The rule was invented to address breakaway collusion, not GC riders suffering mechanicals from the peloton. In fact, there was some (silly) talk that the peloton (all teams colluding) should have waited for Porte, and every race has coverage of riders drafting cars back to the bunch. This is a draconian ruling and the UCI/organizers need to protect themselves in the future from old farts in blazers wrecking their events.

Meantime, the teams need to protect the reputation of their sport, and RCS the prestige of their event, and restore Porte's time on the road: find a rule that the entire peloton could violate live on TV for a 2 min penalty and token fine. If they don't we can conclude that Contador and Aru are perfectly happy to win by any means necessary making cycling no better than football. (I can think of no worse insult)

above_the_cows

Paul 8v wrote:

What a load of balls, was the convoy not stopped at the time meaning he couldn't get a wheel anyway?

Matt Rendell is suggesting that Porte was leading team and punctured veered left and team went right and then they couldn't cross the road to get to him. I asked him if that was because of the cars being stopped and he said he didn't know.

above_the_cows

TailWindHome wrote:

I look forward to the top 5/6 at Gent Wevelgem this year being DQd (as you apparently get DQd in a one dayer) for waiting for Geraint Thomas when he crashed. They all gained an unfair advantage. Thomas got back into the race and the others got extra help in the wind.

*There are 1000s of other examples of this sort of thing, again its not the rule its the arbitrary application of said rule that is the problem. Of course in the case of this particular rule it has to be applied arbitrarily because otherwise cycling just wouldn't work as a sport.

above_the_cows

ddraver wrote:

Qunitanta riding past a red flag gainng a minute and a half - ignored

[Tinfoil alert] It's almost as if someone somewhere makes a decision on who they want to win the race and finds ways to make that 'easier'.[/Tinfoil alert]

I'm loosing my innocence.

Ashbeck

I've been away but trying to watch highlights. Just seen this nonsense on Porte, amazing.

For me, thats the Giro dead. Weve now got a convicted doper against a doping team. The only thing keeping it all above board was Porte in the middle.

What was a good first week, with 3 contenders all marking themselves, and a potentially excellent build up to the finish, has now been ruined by this decision.
Rules are are rules....blah...blah...blah, we know all that, but sport is all about 'sportsmanship' and i like to think that cycling has a great deal of it unlike any other sport. The fact Porte was helped by OGE with the wheel actually warms the cockles of my heart, it makes me love that aspect of the sport, it makes me love the OGE rider, team and its philosophy in helping others. Its actually all good for the sport all round. So punishing Porte for this doesnt just ruin Porte, it kicks the generosity of OGE into touch and throws 'sportsmanship' out the window. Whats the point of anything after thats gone? May as well let dopers dope and be done with it.

It never ceases to amaze me just how f*cking dumb human beings are, constantly shooting themselves in the foot, constantly applying decisions to things without any logic and then wondering why things don't work out the way they hoped. The UCI want to move on from doping and controversy and yet here we have a doper leading a doping team with a clean rider punished for sportsmanship. You couldnt make this sh*t up.

And on another note, Astana? Looking superb? Do me a favour....someones been at the Cola Cubes thats for sure.

Giro dead.

Ashbeck

Macaloon wrote:

The rule was invented to address breakaway collusion, not GC riders suffering mechanicals from the peloton. In fact, there was some (silly) talk that the peloton (all teams colluding) should have waited for Porte, and every race has coverage of riders drafting cars back to the bunch. This is a draconian ruling and the UCI/organizers need to protect themselves in the future from old farts in blazers wrecking their events.

Meantime, the teams need to protect the reputation of their sport, and RCS the prestige of their event, and restore Porte's time on the road: find a rule that the entire peloton could violate live on TV for a 2 min penalty and token fine. If they don't we can conclude that Contador and Aru are perfectly happy to win by any means necessary making cycling no better than football. (I can think of no worse insult)

Completely agree.

Ashbeck

Gweeds wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Everyone gets why the rule has been applied. We re narked becasue the same, or very similar rules are ROUTINELY ignored by the commissars on a daily basis.


Just off the top of my head-
Meersman wheel change THIS giro - ignored
Qunitanta riding past a red flag gainng a minute and a half - ignored
TGV incident - ignored
Bertie's helmet - ignored
Astana - ok, not ignored, but unpunished

A gazillion magic spanners, sticky bottles, lifts/pulls off of cars etc etc - ignored

Bingo.

Take away the fact that FF seems to miss this point because it's penalised Porte so he's all bouncy (and you can bet this wouldn't be the case if it was 5kgs Aru or Beefy Bertie) and that pretty much nails it.

Moreover, what this decision also does is have the potential to significantly affect the GC right in the middle of the second week whilst Aru seems able to carry on with a suspiciously strong Astana team that shouldn't even be riding. It's just very thick.

Completely agree

above_the_cows

Ashbeck wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me just how f*cking dumb human beings are, constantly shooting themselves in the foot, constantly applying decisions to things without any logic and then wondering why things don't work out the way they hoped.

It's not necessarily f*cking dumb if you want to engineer the race in a certain way. Perhaps this is exactly working out the way some people hoped for... :?

Daz555

Anyone think that if an Italian rider in sight of Pink had been involved, we'd have seen the same punishment?

markwb79

Ashbeck wrote:

Rules are are rules....blah...blah...blah, we know all that, but sport is all about 'sportsmanship' and i like to think that cycling has a great deal of it unlike any other sport. The fact Porte was helped by OGE with the wheel actually warms the cockles of my heart, it makes me love that aspect of the sport, it makes me love the OGE rider, team and its philosophy in helping others. Its actually all good for the sport all round. So punishing Porte for this doesnt just ruin Porte, it kicks the generosity of OGE into touch and throws 'sportsmanship' out the window. Whats the point of anything after thats gone? May as well let dopers dope and be done with it.

Exactly, I loved seeing the tweet from the Giro saying its the best sport in the world because a rival helping another team.

Makes the whole farce even more funny/stupid/ridiculous.

above_the_cows

Daz555 wrote:

Anyone think that if an Italian rider in sight of Pink had been involved, we'd have seen the same punishment?

disquieting_museeuws

Brailsford argued to Cyclingnews that Porte’s case had been treated according to UCI regulations but that given the idea of fair play had been behind the wheel change, the "spirit of the law" had not been recognised.

“It just goes to show you that you can either live by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law”

I have two words for Dave, and they are Philip and Hindes


It strikes me as a bit naff for Clarke to be giving a wheel to another team. A Sky puncture is their business, not his. It's not like it's 30 years ago when there were only a couple of English-speakers in the peloton and they had to look out for each other.

fleshtuxedo

Daz555 wrote:

Anyone think that if an Italian rider in sight of Pink had been involved, we'd have seen the same punishment?

fleshtuxedo

disquieting_museeuws wrote:

It strikes me as a bit naff for Clarke to be giving a wheel to another team. A Sky puncture is their business, not his. It's not like it's 30 years ago when there were only a couple of English-speakers in the peloton and they had to look out for each other.

Although I disagree with the penalty I agree with this. An odd situation.

frenchfighter

1.
There is a known rule which leads to a 2min penalty. Simple.
Porte does not have a rider next to him. Fail.
Porte stops on the wrong side of the road. Fail.
Porte accepts a wheel from the nearest rider offering one. Fail.
By taking this wheel Porte gets an advantage. Simple.
Porte gets a 2min penalty for a known rule because the infraction was widely publicized on social media and thus the Giro admin saw it and took action. Simple.

2.
To be widely presented with an infraction and not acting on it, is worse than seeing an infraction and taking the stipulated action, even if common consensus is the penalty is too harsh.

It is like a police officer being shown a clear video of someone being attacked but not acting on it because he thinks the person getting beaten up deserves it. This is not how justice and the law works. Deal with it.

3.
All this complaining about whether the rule is legitimate or not is pointless. The teams and riders should have read and know these rules and if there is something that seems unfair, not relevant, disproportionate, then they should lobby to change it. Call up Cookson. They have themselves to blame and no one else.

4.

ddraver wrote:

ROUTINELY ignored

There are only so many commissaries.
When they see an infraction they act appropriately. If they are dispensing justice arbitrarily, which one would naturally assume not to be the case, then this is a different matter which needs to be addressed.

A bit like in life really. There are loads of people who break the rules but (even though they are in the wrong) you can't then bemoan the fact they were not caught whereas others were.

5.

RichN95 wrote:

Not some farce decided by jobsworths.

Got a problem with those who dispense justice? These people were acting on fact rather than opinion. What if they didn't then how would all the other teams feel? Could they then use that 'get out of jail' card the next time they committed a similar infraction? This is not the way the World works.

above_the_cows

Porte speaks:

So Richie, can you tell us what happened out there on the road?

The peloton was going super fast to try and catch the breakaway and get ready for a bunch sprint, and I picked up a front wheel puncture as we were going around a roundabout. I'd gone around it on the left but my team-mates went around the other side. I stopped, and by the time the guys had got back to me Simon (Clarke from Orica GreenEdge) had already stopped and offered me his wheel. It was a spur of the minute thing. Alberto (Contador) summed it up last night - all you are thinking about when something like that happens is 'how can I make sure I lose the least time possible'. I didn't even give it a thought that it might be breaking the rules. Everything was happening so quickly and I was just acting on adrenaline.

What did you think of Simon's help?

It was amazing - really great sportsmanship. For a fellow pro from another team to help out like that - I think it shows cycling at its best. The sport has made a lot of pretty bad headlines over the years and this was a pretty special moment. Simon is a friend and he showed it yesterday for sure.

What's your reaction to the penalty?

I think I had better watch what I say... You might have had a different answer last night! Stating the obvious - it is frustrating but there is no point moaning or complaining. It was a technical infringement - although that was literally the last thing on my mind when it happened. As I said, all I wanted to do was to get to the finish line as fast as possible and limit my losses. It's pretty harsh really that Simon ended up with a two-minute penalty given he was left standing on the side of the road with just one wheel, but there you go.

I have to suck it up and we have to look forward as a team. It has been great to get so much support overnight. That means a lot. No-one should doubt how much I still want to win this race. There are still two weeks to go. It has been a great Giro so far. There is still a lot of racing ahead, some tough stages and this has really fired the whole team up to try to get the time back.

frenchfighter

Photo of Clarke's bike without the wheel:

Macaloon

It shouldn't be forgotten that a well-drilled team, one that sleeps together, has nominated bodyguards for their GC leader in the final, ensuring a team wheel is available for punctures. Why did Sky fail at this basic procedure?

ddraver

Macaloon wrote:

If they don't we can conclude that Contador and Aru are perfectly happy to win by any means necessary making cycling no better than football. (I can think of no worse insult)

They won't, I mean of ocurse they won't. Bertie certainly has a low opinion of rules to start with but they re both Pro Sportsman and sportsmen of any time have other things to worry about. I don't like it much but it's reality across all sports and I can see how it works

FleshTuxedo wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

Anyone think that if an Italian rider in sight of Pink had been involved, we'd have seen the same punishment?

I have nt mentioned it because it would detract from the argument a bit but you are, of course, 100% correct.

ddraver

frenchfighter wrote:

4.

ddraver wrote:

ROUTINELY ignored

There are only so many commissaries.
When they see an infraction they act appropriately. If they are dispensing justice arbitrarily, which one would naturally assume not to be the case, then this is a different matter which needs to be addressed.

A bit like in life really. There are loads of people who break the rules but (even though they are in the wrong) you can't then bemoan the fact they were not caught whereas others were.

Are you suggesting that Quintana wasnt caught?





You are embarrassing yourself now

above_the_cows

Macaloon wrote:

It shouldn't be forgotten that a well-drilled team, one that sleeps together, has nominated bodyguards for their GC leader in the final, ensuring a team wheel is available for punctures. Why did Sky fail at this basic procedure?

Richie can answer you that:

"I picked up a front wheel puncture as we were going around a roundabout. I'd gone around it on the left but my team-mates went around the other side. I stopped, and by the time the guys had got back to me Simon (Clarke from Orica GreenEdge) had already stopped and offered me his wheel."

frenchfighter

ddraver wrote:

You are embarrassing yourself now

No, you and many others on here are though.

You are acting like baby's who have lost their dummy.

Everything I am talking is logical and makes sense. If you chose to think otherwise, I couldn't give a f*ck.

rick_chasey

thegibdog wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

So it would've been ok if they were riding clinchers?

If we're being strict in interpretation rule has not been broken.

Seperately - what good reason does this rule exist for?

Is it to avoid '87 Giro scenario?