BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

coopster_the_1st

Rick Chasey wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why would you think I'm not eligible to vote?

Because you are a Dutchman and moved to London some time ago. This means there is a process(es) that need to be followed for you to be eligible to vote so I'm asking if you have done the required? Only needs a Yes or No answer

I moved to the UK when I was very young and my father is English.

I'm now late 20s, and I, much to my regret, I had to rescind my Dutch nationality in order to be able to vote in UK elections and attend UK university without incurring rather large fees.

So yes, I am eligible.

Thanks for a honest response. I can only imagine how hard a decision it must be to give up your nationality although I suppose that decision depends on how you feel about the country you have moved to and whether you intend to stay there.

I did not know that about university fees although I suppose that decision is similar with this referendum on what you are prepared to give up for the costs involved. Except you knew the costs in that instance and this time it is just projections


p.s. I've reported the troll further up thread. It's people like that who do not deserve the vote as they see themselves and their view more important than those who hold a different view

kingstongraham

As Martin Lewis says "I’m generally risk-averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety, maybe 55% to 45%." - is that "strongly believe"?

And you missed Ian Botham from the out list.

ddraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why would you think I'm not eligible to vote?

Because you are a Dutchman and moved to London some time ago. This means there is a process(es) that need to be followed for you to be eligible to vote so I'm asking if you have done the required? Only needs a Yes or No answer

I moved to the UK when I was very young and my father is English.

I'm now late 20s, and I, much to my regret, I had to rescind my Dutch nationality in order to be able to vote in UK elections and attend UK university without incurring rather large fees.

So yes, I am eligible.

AtC says I need to learn Dutch to become a citizen here. Fancy tutoring me? We can revise for the exam together!

veronese68

KingstonGraham wrote:

As Martin Lewis says "I’m generally risk-averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety, maybe 55% to 45%." - is that "strongly believe"?

And you missed Ian Botham from the out list.

It wasn't my list, that's why I quoted it and I did say it was selective. But it has less bias and more basis in fact than the front page of the Sun.

coopster_the_1st

Veronese68 wrote:

I know this list is a little selective but isn't everything in this debate?

Yes, it is a 'little' selective and not in anyway biased with the way the list is reported

I'm not sure what it adds to the debate either. Does it even fit in with meaning of 'debate' with the descriptions used?

It's very much attacking the person and not the arguments, everything you have said is dreadful in the referendum. Personally this is something that needs to be removed from politics as it just turns voters off.

rick_chasey

What, looking at the kind of people who support your view?

I'd say it's a useful indicator. The company you're with says a lot about you.

coopster_the_1st

Rick Chasey wrote:

What, looking at the kind of people who support your view?

I'd say it's a useful indicator. The company you're with says a lot about you.

• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system

Does the above really add to the debate?

How would the above list describe Jeremy Hunt on the remain side? Presumably there would be no mention of his destruction of morale in the NHS? :roll:

It weakens the argument your side presents when they are not even addressing the argument. But you hate all this negative politics and project fear being used :roll:

Bobbinogs

Again though, all I hear in favour of the Remain vote is that it is better than the Leave option. I think this referendum is heading for the worst debate in history in that the debate is all one sided; focusing on the one option (Leave) and the risks it poses.

It is also beginning to look like an ego-trip folly of Cameron with the nation up as the betting stake. I still don't understand why he didn't try and completely nullify the immigration trump card by sorting it out to some extent. The government seems to have given up even trying to pretend they can control immigration (remember the "under 100,000" commitment?) and I sense that the best chance for Remain has come and gone in the last 2 years. DC trying to swing the debate onto the economy shows the folly of the man, and he may well end up looking like King Canute with no one to blame except himself.

veronese68

It is an edited and selective list, but as with everything else you read about this you should read it with an open mind. Whilst there are some on the leave side that I respect the opinion of there are significantly more for remaining. We could add Rupert Murdoch to the out list, he's on record as saying he doesn't like the EU because whilst he can exert some control over Downing Street he has no control over Brussells.

rick_chasey

Bobbinogs wrote:

Again though, all I hear in favour of the Remain vote is that it is better than the Leave option. I think this referendum is heading for the worst debate in history in that the debate is all one sided; focusing on the one option (Leave) and the risks it poses

Well yeah. Because it's between the status quo, where we already have the benefits, and something new, which is fairly unknown.

What do you actually expect?

:roll:

pblakeney

I expect that the EU will continue to change and that there will be no status quo, whatever the vote.

Bobbinogs

I disagree with Rick. The EU seems to change every few weeks and no one knows what the effect of millions more migrants coming over is going to have on it, the Euro is in a mess and the politicians don't want to show any leadership or grip on the helm. Status Quo? More like Monty Python at times.

coopster_the_1st

But everyone to a person on the remain side says that 'the EU is good of us' qualifies it in the same sentence by saying 'that it needs to reform'. How much of an endorsement is that when everyone supporting it is saying that is not the way we want it?

And if it was going to reform it would have taken the steps to do so in February. It proved then it does not want to change for the better.

mrfpb

The government have very much weighted the game in favour of Remain. They used the apparatus of government to spend £9 million on a pro-Remain leaflet before the campaign officially began and refused access to the civil service for pro-leave ministers to ask for projections on Leave. If they are drawing up plans on what to do in the event of Leave (and they should be), then they are not going to tell us before the vote. They are also quiet on future plans for the EU and have not responded to Farage's comments on an EU army being the next Big Thing for Europe - they could issue a clear rebuttal or announce a position on it (we would have a veto after all) but they haven't.

pblakeney

Veronese68 wrote:

..We could add Rupert Murdoch to the out list, he's on record as saying he doesn't like the EU because whilst he can exert some control over Downing Street he has no control over Brussells.

He must be talking to the wrong people in the EU then.
By talking, I mean bribing.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

Again though, all I hear in favour of the Remain vote is that it is better than the Leave option. I think this referendum is heading for the worst debate in history in that the debate is all one sided; focusing on the one option (Leave) and the risks it poses

Well yeah. Because it's between the status quo, where we already have the benefits, and something new, which is fairly unknown.

What do you actually expect?

:roll:

I suspect that both sides are receiving data that tells them that nobody is changing sides therefore they are pouring their effort into making sure their voters turn up.

If you take this thread as a microcosm of the UK then you have one side arguing with their head and one with their hearts. We may as well be writing in different languages as neither can comprehend the others point of view.

mr_goo

Stop the presses!
Newly released images of the immigrant crisis at the Euro Tunnel terminal in Folkestone if the country votes to Remain or Leave.

veronese68

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I suspect that both sides are receiving data that tells them that nobody is changing sides therefore they are pouring their effort into making sure their voters turn up.

Most people I know are very much one side or the other, but there are a few that really don't know what to do. One of them has just sent off his postal vote. He voted in but still isn't sure it was the right thing to do. Thankfully it's too late if he changes his mind.

cycleclinic

surrey commutor is right. that is the problem here. the brexit voters are not "thinking" they are "feeling". therefore no real discussion is possible. It is like we are talking different languages.

I was going to post something but I have deleted it now as there is no point.

mr_goo

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

far too long to read but I am guessing that it says all of the experts are wrong and that in Goo's opinion everything will be fine if we leave

Quite the reverse, leave would lead to the end of the world remain would be perfection. I'm almost certain it was tongue in cheek. But it does highlight the extremes that both sides are coming up with.

if we can talk him around there is hope yet.

You (and cycleclinic) introduced rational debate with your real life demonstration of how this whole thing effects SMEs but nobody was interested

Never gonna talk me around to voting for an unelected government (EU Commission).

Jack boots on the streets of the UK all the way for me.

Now is that Remain or Leave?

coopster_the_1st

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

we always seem to be disagreeing - how can Cameron/Osborne state a position that when, in all probability, they will not be around to honour it?

They can state the governments position as that is who they are. I suppose you can see why it is not in their interest to do so?

are you suggesting that they pass laws binding their successors to that policy?

Moving this here so the thread this was posted in does not become EU Referendum II as the OP of that thread requested

Are you suggesting that the leave campaign would disagree to a government statement saying current EU residents residing in the UK will be unaffected upon a Brexit vote?

Let's be real here, having this government statement this would allay the fears of those who are definitely going to vote for them. Despite playing hugely on people's fears it is not in there interest to do this. *Politics at its finest

* Yes, I don't need to be told both sides are engaged in this

mrfpb

surrey commutor is right. that is the problem here. the brexit voters are not "thinking" they are "feeling". therefore no real discussion is possible. It is like we are talking different languages.

Poppycock!* On this thread at least (certainly the last ten pages) there has been a lot of thought from the Leave side and some emotive language from the Remain side. A bit of pure baiting/trolling going on but that seem s to have been dealt with. I think both sides of the public debate are guilty of overemotional language. I'm more lokelty to find a link to a reasonable article or argument here. Even my FB page has more sense and reason than the politicians are presenting.

*Sorry for the emotive language. I do get a bit touchy feely about politics sometimes.

mamba80

Bobbinogs wrote:

Again though, all I hear in favour of the Remain vote is that it is better than the Leave option. I think this referendum is heading for the worst debate in history in that the debate is all one sided; focusing on the one option (Leave) and the risks it poses.

It is also beginning to look like an ego-trip folly of Cameron with the nation up as the betting stake. I still don't understand why he didn't try and completely nullify the immigration trump card by sorting it out to some extent. The government seems to have given up even trying to pretend they can control immigration (remember the "under 100,000" commitment?) and I sense that the best chance for Remain has come and gone in the last 2 years. DC trying to swing the debate onto the economy shows the folly of the man, and he may well end up looking like King Canute with no one to blame except himself.

well, for me, it is the "better than leave option" we would only need a small number of foreign owned companies or banks to up sticks to the mainland and any saving we might make on membership will be gone many times over, because of our need for unskilled but intelligent workers, which we cant seem to produce ourselves, we ll still need migrant workers, the difference is they ll come from anywhere and they wont be claiming child benefit... woo wee!

as much as the INs have played the fear card, the OUTs have played up the financial saving, 10billion is about one month of total NHS spending and a drop in the ocean of total Gov spending.

i do not see how a country that has such a terrible manufacturing sector (as in tiny) can somehow set up all these trade deals around the world, i also do not get why the EU stops a company selling around the world, last time i was outside of EU, i saw plenty of BMWs/Audis/AEG/Bosch/Peugoets/LOOK pedals etc etc our defence industry, as does all the other ones in EU seem to be able to sell around the world.
My mates kayak equipment company sells around the world.....
So what is supposed to be holding us back? the EU or our own lack of manufacturing/exports? if we were a Germany, then yep i d be voting OUT too

IF the remains are even 1/2 right, then DC should be put on trial for giving us lot this vote, which is going to be decided on immigration only, as said in another thread, the man is a dangerous fool.

coopster_the_1st

thecycleclinic wrote:

surrey commutor is right. that is the problem here. the brexit voters are not "thinking" they are "feeling". therefore no real discussion is possible. It is like we are talking different languages.

I was going to post something but I have deleted it now as there is no point.

I'm thinking. I'm thinking this:

- Where is the control mechanism on EU migration? What are the negatives to the UK population of not having this control mechanism?
- Based on February's reform outcome, how likely is it that the EU be reformed the way it needs to be?

The remainers just do not get it and are still not getting it. You are not going to win or positively influence an argument if you taking the approach that your view is superior to those who view opposite to yours.

You made a very good post last night, the best I have seen from a remainer but it does not address the issues I am thinking about. You lose credibility when you imply your 'thinking' is superior to that of people wanting to leave.

surrey_commuter

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

we always seem to be disagreeing - how can Cameron/Osborne state a position that when, in all probability, they will not be around to honour it?

They can state the governments position as that is who they are. I suppose you can see why it is not in their interest to do so?

are you suggesting that they pass laws binding their successors to that policy?

Moving this here so the thread this was posted in does not become EU Referendum II as the OP of that thread requested

Are you suggesting that the leave campaign would disagree to a government statement saying current EU residents residing in the UK will be unaffected upon a Brexit vote?

Let's be real here, having this government statement this would allay the fears of those who are definitely going to vote for them. Despite playing hugely on people's fears it is not in there interest to do this. *Politics at its finest

* Yes, I don't need to be told both sides are engaged in this

Good idea to move.

Nobody trusts a politician, if I was an EU citizen it would do nothing to allay my fears.
Sadiq Khan became London Mayor on May 7th. On June 9th he broke one of his key pledges to freeze TFL fares for 4 years.

mr_goo

thecycleclinic wrote:

surrey commutor is right. that is the problem here. the brexit voters are not "thinking" they are "feeling". therefore no real discussion is possible. It is like we are talking different languages.

I was going to post something but I have deleted it now as there is no point.

Remain, Cameron and Boy George are pi55ing out straight. The desperation of their campaign is embarrassing, preying on the fears of every demographic. Not once have they promoted anything positive about the EU.

Again I stand by MY VIEW, that Cameron has been leant on. To be so vociferous in his view that Leaving is so bad for the UK, when he stated he would campaign to Leave if his negotiations achieved little or nothing. He achieve bu66er all and is now the standard bearer for the EU. Don't any of you see that?

mamba80

Coopster the 1st wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

surrey commutor is right. that is the problem here. the brexit voters are not "thinking" they are "feeling". therefore no real discussion is possible. It is like we are talking different languages.

I was going to post something but I have deleted it now as there is no point.

I'm thinking. I'm thinking this:

- Where is the control mechanism on EU migration? What are the negatives to the UK population of not having this control mechanism?
- Based on February's reform outcome, how likely is it that the EU be reformed the way it needs to be?

The remainers just do not get it and are still not getting it. You are not going to win or positively influence an argument if you taking the approach that your view is superior to those who view opposite to yours.

this is the problem with the leave's its all about immigration, this transitory, do you think Poland can prosper if all its best youngsters are working in the UK ? the real issue to make our own unemployed do unskilled work and raise their work ethic, this and having a contributory benefits system, these two alone would slash migrants coming to UK.

as a UKIP supporter said on Radio this morning, voting OUT wont solve the immigrant issue.

as for control of our borders? a suspected murderer from Latvia just got on a ferry to france the other day, we ve cut back on border force staff and equipment, how is that the EUs fault?

coopster_the_1st

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Nobody trusts a politician, if I was an EU citizen it would do nothing to allay my fears.
Sadiq Khan became London Mayor on May 7th. On June 9th he broke one of his key pledges to freeze TFL fares for 4 years.

Agree nobody trusts a politician but is it any wonder with the rubbish they are spouting to try and manipulate the electorate? Your example proving that perfectly.

I would hope though that both sides agreeing on this would resolve this issue. Leaving it open is shameful politics. It's at the same level of using the fear of war/terrorism in the argument

bompington

I wonder what the Leave:Remain capital letter ratio is?

coopster_the_1st

mamba80 wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

surrey commutor is right. that is the problem here. the brexit voters are not "thinking" they are "feeling". therefore no real discussion is possible. It is like we are talking different languages.

I was going to post something but I have deleted it now as there is no point.

I'm thinking. I'm thinking this:

- Where is the control mechanism on EU migration? What are the negatives to the UK population of not having this control mechanism?
- Based on February's reform outcome, how likely is it that the EU be reformed the way it needs to be?

The remainers just do not get it and are still not getting it. You are not going to win or positively influence an argument if you taking the approach that your view is superior to those who view opposite to yours.

this is the problem with the leave's its all about immigration, this transitory, do you think Poland can prosper if all its best youngsters are working in the UK ? the real issue to make our own unemployed do unskilled work and raise their work ethic, this and having a contributory benefits system, these two alone would slash migrants coming to UK.

as a UKIP supporter said on Radio this morning, voting OUT wont solve the immigrant issue.

as for control of our borders? a suspected murderer from Latvia just got on a ferry to france the other day, we ve cut back on border force staff and equipment, how is that the EUs fault?

This issue is a binary one of where control of our immigration is decided, Westminster or Brussels. Which political body is going to be making this decision in the UK's interests and will be accountable to the UK electorate on this issue?

Having control of immigration within a UK elected body looking out for the UK interests that is accountable to the UK electorate can only improve the chances of improving the immigrant issue. The 'status quo' is not going to address the issue.

Having the EU as part of our political process allows UK politicians to move the blame elsewhere and dilute there responsibility on the issues. Removing the EU from this process makes the Westminster politicians more accountable for their actions as there is no outside influence to blame.

I can't see how you can argue against this. Your view comes across as by diluting the UK parliament it is better for us