BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
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i hope we dont go back to some authoritarian form of moderation, which seems to be andys tone here?
personally, i didnt think MB was particularly insulting, he had a belief that the ALi thread should be of hushed respect and in this thread, i ve seen no real insults - this is an important issue or it wouldnt be 55 pages long.
Of course nothing political is going to get resolved on here but then again i doubt my one single vote will make diddly either.0 -
anyway back on topic.... this is a pretty good website explaining the bump and grind of leaving
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the ... rticle-50/0 -
What I did today pt 94...
I got up early and drove to Belgium and France to buy beer and wine. I do this every so often when the cellars at chez BBGeek are running low.
I had a chat with a Belgian farmer who was also popping into the shop for a crate of ale. As they do. My extremely poor French and his excellent English led to a chat in the car park. He firmly expressed the wish that the UK doesn't leave, because what would be the point? and that Cameron and Farage were idiots. Playing games was the term and I had to agree.
My lunch in Calais was excellent, my those border fences are going up quick, and we loaded the car up with lots of wine and goodies. Yes, it's money to the French chancellor, but who cares?
A group of school kids were being counted in by French and English teacher. The French kids were charming, the Brits less so. Hey ho. In the interest of balance, the Polish guys next to me just drank lots of beer on the crossing.
Dover is a nightmare. Somebody sort that out! Drove home to sunny South Hampshire.
Watched two debates tonight on this referendum thing. By the gods it's getting nasty. A lot of guff being spouted. I watched the ITV one and despite a short detour to Building Alaska on Ch 42 (I am not paid by them) the stayers had it to start butthe Brexiteers kind of won the day. IMHO Gisela Stuart had probably the most cogent "arguments" I have heard. If one could argue about the future. N Sturgeon was also great, and I might spoil this by saying I think I might be a bit in love with her.
The Beeb Q Time was horrific. Instantly descended into vitriol and slanging. Eddie Izzard duly provoked Nigel Farrige and it got worse. I have rarely seen the bigoted nature of my fellow countrymen and politicians get so nasty.
I am a European, my grandfather escaped some of the worst excesses of the 20th century inflicted on his country and through various means came to Britain where fought bravely and was injured for his actions. He stayed here, and raised a family. I am a enduring part of that family, and as British as I am European.
I would just like to say: we all have to come from somewhere. I have heard, and read a lot of questioning about people's background, ie their sincerity on any topic and I deplore this. Debate is fine, and yes, it is right to be questioned one where you stand, but respect must come first. Yep, this is a big issue (who knew the Brits cared about politics?), and I care a lot about it. But leave off the boasting about who came here first, who's the Jonny come lately etc.
This might be a big decision for some.
Peace and Love.Ecrasez l’infame0 -
You almost wrote one of the best posts in this thread but lost all credibility with that sentence.BelgianBeerGeek wrote:..N Sturgeon was also great, and I might spoil this by saying I think I might be a bit in love with her.
....The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
was looking to have my mind changed but i just dont get the "take control" mantra, would imply we ve lost control... where?
Sturgeon is the best labour leader that party will never have, the claims over £350 per week, lose the outs credibility but i wish the INs were more positive over the benefits of the EU.
Big shame immigration is what it has all boiled down to.0 -
Lookyhere wrote:was looking to have my mind changed but i just dont get the "take control" mantra, would imply we ve lost control... where?
Ask a fisherman. The threat to the fishing industry was the main reason the Norwegians stayed out and it's the biggest example of a UK industry diminished by EU membership.
It also concentrates power at the top- so for example Cameron will argue for a UK position in the EU commission rather than the house of commons - an example of this was his opposition to tariffs on Chinese steel. If he had to argue that position in cabinet and in the commons he would have been held more responsible for it.
Last nights debate was the worst yet. The Remain camp just targeted Boris's motives. Leave spent ages shouting "Project Fear." It seems the one at a time Q&As eren't such a bad idea after all.0 -
PBlakeney wrote:
You almost wrote one of the best posts in this thread but lost all credibility with that sentence.BelgianBeerGeek wrote:..N Sturgeon was also great, and I might spoil this by saying I think I might be a bit in love with her.
....
mmm, I think I just tasted a little bit of sick at the back of my throat.0 -
Cod Wars, anyone?mrfpb wrote:Ask a fisherman. The threat to the fishing industry was the main reason the Norwegians stayed out and it's the biggest example of a UK industry diminished by EU membership.
I can't see how the threat of over-fishing can be solved by any mechanism other than a multi-national body, unless we're going to return to using the Royal Navy (or what's left of it) to enforce a unilateral solution. Ultimately, without the EU (or something doing a similar job), the fishing industry would be ruined by lack of fish. And part of those discussions involve talks between the EU and Norway. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-n ... d-35013101 and https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/n ... /id712303/0 -
i do agree that discard is seemingly a crazy policy but if the fishermen had nt tried to by pass the rules, the eu would nt have introduced it.
Canada managed to destroy its own cod industry with no help from the EU.
no one held DC to account over eu steel tariffs as few are interested in the finer points of eu policy or not, as its all about immigration
he went to the eu with an agreed cabinet position on chinese steel, if Labour and media dont pick him/them up on this, how is that the eu's fault?
i do agree both sides need to raise the level of argument, i reckon us lot on here are more coherent lol!0 -
Surely the most damning of comments!Lookyhere wrote:i do agree both sides need to raise the level of argument, i reckon us lot on here are more coherent lol!The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Lookyhere wrote:was looking to have my mind changed but i just dont get the "take control" mantra, would imply we ve lost control... where?
Sturgeon is the best labour leader that party will never have, the claims over £350 per week, lose the outs credibility but i wish the INs were more positive over the benefits of the EU.
Big shame immigration is what it has all boiled down to.
The bold parts are linked. The UK government has lost how it can control migration between the UK and the EU. There are others but this is probably the most visible.
Despite her political persuasion I was very impressed with Gisela Stuart. She impressed me most out of the 6 on show.
The IN camp definitely had a plan to attack Boris. Is it like they have decided that their only way forward now is to discredit him rather than re-enforce the positives of remain. They would get more creditability if they stuck to the argument rather than attacking the personalities!
The Out do lose a load of creditability with the £350m claim.
Both camps were until recently in a race to the bottom of the credibility stakes which only reflects poor political campaigns have become0 -
Twice as many people watched DIY SOS.
It doesn't matter what exactly happened in the debate or who said what, only the mood music that comes out from it.0 -
I far as I could see, the main thrust was scaremongering about the other side's alleged scaremongering, simple contradiction, shaking heads, and disapproving looks.
Did anyone see the later debate on question time ? Eddie Izzard seemed to be blissfully unaware that the impassioned, rapid fire mode of delivery that serves him so well on a comedy stage, simply doesn't work at all well in the context of an interactive political debate.0 -
Eddie Izzard, who I admire, was a disaster. He had the Q Time audience booing his treatment of Nigel Farage, how low can a person sink in public opinion!
Farage has moderated his comments since this debate started. He no longer comments about people not speaking English on the bus or not feeling safe if eastern europeans moved next door, but that is still the bedrock of his beliefs. I have been hoping that, In or Out, the referendum will take away UKIPs reason to exist, but the SNP still thrive after losing their referendum so I think that's a vain hope on my part.0 -
mrfpb wrote:Farage has moderated his comments since this debate started. He no longer comments about people not speaking English on the bus or not feeling safe if eastern europeans moved next door, but that is still the bedrock of his beliefs. I have been hoping that, In or Out, the referendum will take away UKIPs reason to exist, but the SNP still thrive after losing their referendum so I think that's a vain hope on my part.
A huge positive of a leave vote is that it would retire UKIP as a political party
, a remain vote will just make then stronger 0 -
Have to agree with that. I watched a bit of the debate but found both sides didn't do much more than irritate the hell out of me.Coopster the 1st wrote:The IN camp definitely had a plan to attack Boris. Is it like they have decided that their only way forward now is to discredit him rather than re-enforce the positives of remain. They would get more creditability if they stuck to the argument rather than attacking the personalities!
The Out do lose a load of creditability with the £350m claim.
Both camps were until recently in a race to the bottom of the credibility stakes which only reflects poor political campaigns have become0 -
No Tory boy me, but some of the comments about Boris were pretty shabby. If that was me, I'd have lost it, but the blond shark just grinned sheepishly and carried on. Our future PM....help.Ecrasez l’infame0
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So for an Out/Labour voter it's win/win.Coopster the 1st wrote:mrfpb wrote:Farage has moderated his comments since this debate started. He no longer comments about people not speaking English on the bus or not feeling safe if eastern europeans moved next door, but that is still the bedrock of his beliefs. I have been hoping that, In or Out, the referendum will take away UKIPs reason to exist, but the SNP still thrive after losing their referendum so I think that's a vain hope on my part.
A huge positive of a leave vote is that it would retire UKIP as a political party , a remain vote will just make then stronger 0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:mrfpb wrote:Farage...part.
A huge positive of a leave vote is that it would retire UKIP as a political party , a remain vote will just make then stronger
Isn't that a bit of an inversion? If we vote to remain, there will be no 2nd referendum and no reason for UKIP to exist with no future.
UKIP may flourish in the event of a Brexit because they can bang their xenophobic drums triumphantly.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I foresee a massive increase in UKIP membership if we vote to Remain. There will be a large number of voters who will feel aggrieved by the outcome and the process. Unfortunately, concentrating the vote on either voting to leave or not leave (as opposed to the benefits of staying) will not really have changed anything.
What should have happened is for the Remain camp to convince the ones thinking about leaving that staying in is better for a number of reasons. Instead, the campaign seems to have been solely focused on the disasters of leaving (much of what has been said there is simply laughable), so therefore remaining is the only option left. That is why I think this referendum will be disastrous for Britain in that it will create a sour legacy whatever the outcome.0 -
Pinno wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:mrfpb wrote:Farage...part.
A huge positive of a leave vote is that it would retire UKIP as a political party , a remain vote will just make then stronger
Isn't that a bit of an inversion? If we vote to remain, there will be no 2nd referendum and no reason for UKIP to exist with no future.
UKIP may flourish in the event of a Brexit because they can bang their xenophobic drums triumphantly.
The Scottish independence vote didn't kill of the SNP did it?
Neither side have really made their case to me. As it's gone on I think I've started to lean towards possibly considering out (having started firmly on the remain side). Project fear has just ended up a massive turn off...plus the first few minutes of brexit the movie made me wonder just how democratic the eu is...
I think an out vote might split UKIP up, as aside from eu exit they do not have coherent policies.
Otoh if we narrowly vote to remain I can see membership rising as they would have wide appeal for disappoint "out" voters.
Either way, if the result is close there is going to be a lot of disappointment.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Bobbinogs wrote:I foresee a massive increase in UKIP membership if we vote to Remain. There will be a large number of voters who will feel aggrieved by the outcome and the process. Unfortunately, concentrating the vote on either voting to leave or not leave (as opposed to the benefits of staying) will not really have changed anything.
What should have happened is for the Remain camp to convince the ones thinking about leaving that staying in is better for a number of reasons. Instead, the campaign seems to have been solely focused on the disasters of leaving (much of what has been said there is simply laughable), so therefore remaining is the only option left. That is why I think this referendum will be disastrous for Britain in that it will create a sour legacy whatever the outcome.
But remaining isn't better than now, it's probably better than leaving. People know what now feels like, the alternative is to make things probably worse in the short and long term (maybe not medium), or not make things probably worse.
They could have done this without exaggerating though.0 -
On the 14th October 2014 I wrote on another thread....PBlakeney wrote:.....As I have said earlier, the points being made for and against are very similar to the points made during the Scottish referendum.
The points made for and against in that referendum were equally full of holes. They will be the same in the EU referendum. ...
Still standing by that. So predictable.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Has anyone been firmly set on leave/remain and then changed their minds in the last month?
It seems most people have their mind made up and no amount of counter arguments are enough to make them switch. I know there are a few undecideds out there, but it'd be interesting to hear what made someone change from leave to remain or vice versa.0 -
The Tory bint that just changed from leave to stay because of the lies about money and the NHS.Prhymeate wrote:Has anyone been firmly set on leave/remain and then changed their minds in the last month?0 -
Developing a sinking feeling that we are indeed xxxxed and Leave will win.
Just listened to an interview by The Economist with Howard Dean, who was a US presidential candidate in 2004. He makes cogent points that in several parts of Europe and in particular the Brexiters in the UK have a lot in common with what's going on the US and the appeal of Der Trumpf.
A significant segment of the population are hacked off with the system, don't see they get any benefit from the status quo, and are looking for someone to blame. In our case it's convenient to blame "Brussels". The Leavers are playing the same sort of cards as Trump, to feed off peoples' anger with the system.
And regretably it seems to be working. Ho hum, I see trouble ahead. Who will get the blame next then, when they can no longer blame the EU?0 -
Immigrants being blamed for the woes of native citizens have been recorded since at least ancient Roman times, it's somewhat disappointing we are here yet again. The supposedly well educated politicians should be fully aware of this and so it's quite disgraceful they are prepared to claim that housing, education, healthcare have suffered and will continue to do so because of EU membership and giving them more power by leaving will change this. All those things are and have long been under national government control. Boris Johnson and the like do not care one bit about the welfare of the kind of people whos vote he is courting, those same politicians have long been part of a bureacratic system that could have affected change for those voters and simply haven't bothered as they do not suffer the consequences of their own policies.
Unfortunately years of under-investment in education and companies that actually make stuff has left a rather large and fertile target base for such fanciful promises coming from the leave camp. If we had a decent education system that raised the skill levels of the workforce enabling them a decent standard of living of their own then such tactics wouldn't have much success as the unskilled labour from overseas wouldn't be head to head with UK workers. This problem goes back many years now, decades, spanning many different government administrations and it's probably too late to turn the tide now unfortunately.0 -
I think (read hope) that just like the Scottish referendum, the majority are happy / happier with he status quo but simply aren't shouting abut it.
The leave story is always going to be more exciting so people will be more vociferous. There is something new to sell a dream or a vision around. Whether that dream or vision is even vaguely realistic is a whole different matter but it is naturally a more exciting story than trying to generate a buzz around the status quo.
There are many positives around staying in that are consistently stated. The problem is, every single in positive can be trumped by a speculative improvement if we leave.
I.e. The EU has given us this, ah yes, but if we leave, we'll do that even better. My biggest frustration is the fraudulent financial argument being made. Gove, Farage and Johnson continually stating they want the money back to invest in public services. Really? To quote a common leave argument; Open your eyes!0 -
morstar wrote:I think (read hope) that just like the Scottish referendum, the majority are happy / happier with he status quo but simply aren't shouting abut it.
I think there is a lot of truth in that. I see plenty of Vote Leave posters and billboards when out and about round here and haven't seen a single remain one. It's those who want change that are making the noise. The in voters are content to just keep their heads down and go about their business.0
