BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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KingstonGraham wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:MikeBrew is making a very reasonable point about Ugo's argument of why someone who constantly puts down the UK way of life (3rd world standard of accomodation, etc) but still chooses to continue to live in these conditions.
Read again what ugo wrote in the post mentioning third world accommodation. It is very specifically about the UK not being attractive for people coming just for benefits. Not about the UK in general.
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Thank you, yes, indeed that was my point...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:MikeBrew is making a very reasonable point about Ugo's argument of why someone who constantly puts down the UK way of life (3rd world standard of accommodation, etc) but still chooses to continue to live in these conditions.
Read again what ugo wrote in the post mentioning third world accommodation. It is very specifically about the UK not being attractive for people coming just for benefits. Not about the UK in general.
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Thank you, yes, indeed that was my point...
Except we do not have third world accommodation. It may not be brilliant but it is definitely 1st world, e.g it has a flushing toilet, connected to the electricity network, etc.
The words he uses to make his point are not the real world that the UK inhabits so why use them? It just comes across as someone talking down the UK0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:
Except we do not have third world accommodation. It may not be brilliant but it is definitely 1st world, e.g it has a flushing toilet, connected to the electricity network, etc.
The words he uses to make his point are not he real world that the UK inhabits so why use them? It just comes across as someone talking down the UK
That wasn't my intention. Much of the council house offering as part of the benefit package is sub-standard... at least that's what we see on TV, I personally have never taken advantage of council housing, so I might be fooled by propaganda, but that's what we see. My point is that it is unlikely that someone is attracted to the UK for that... I hope you will agree with me that the job seeker allowance is definitively not an attractive.... what is it, 100 quid a week or so?
Did we not ride in the same club years ago? Did we not even ride together to Bray once with Andrew T.? Am I going bonkers? Neither of us is an extremist and we shouldn't try depicting each other as such...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:
Except we do not have third world accommodation. It may not be brilliant but it is definitely 1st world, e.g it has a flushing toilet, connected to the electricity network, etc.
The words he uses to make his point are not he real world that the UK inhabits so why use them? It just comes across as someone talking down the UK
That wasn't my intention. Much of the council house offering as part of the benefit package is sub-standard... at least that's what we see on TV, I personally have never taken advantage of council housing, so I might be fooled by propaganda, but that's what we see. My point is that it is unlikely that someone is attracted to the UK for that... I hope you will agree with me that the job seeker allowance is definitively not an attractive.... what is it, 100 quid a week or so?
Sub-standard is different to third world. Sub-standard still has flushing toilet, electricity, etc. Yes it is not palatial but it should not be, it is council supplied housing and something free should be adequate so to encourage people to better themselves rather than rely on others.
I agree with you on the job seeker allowance not being attractive on its own, but combine that with all the other benefits and the level of the national minimum wage and you can see the 'pull' this has in the EU. I'm not arguing about the benefits though, introducing the 'control' mechanism to EU migrants would solve this issue and resolve the issue I have of a critical system missing a control point.ugo.santalucia wrote:Did we not ride in the same club years ago? Did we not even ride together to Bray once with Andrew T.? Am I going bonkers? Neither of us is an extremist and we shouldn't try depicting each other as such...
Yes, we have met and ridden together for the same club outside of this forum. I'm with you that neither of us are extremists, I have not said you are
. In the same way neither of us are stupid, loonies or racists which is what I have been labelled with on this board recently. I'm picking you up on your exaggerated points which are not true. 0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:
Except we do not have third world accommodation. It may not be brilliant but it is definitely 1st world, e.g it has a flushing toilet, connected to the electricity network, etc.
The words he uses to make his point are not he real world that the UK inhabits so why use them? It just comes across as someone talking down the UK
That wasn't my intention. Much of the council house offering as part of the benefit package is sub-standard... at least that's what we see on TV, I personally have never taken advantage of council housing, so I might be fooled by propaganda, but that's what we see. My point is that it is unlikely that someone is attracted to the UK for that... I hope you will agree with me that the job seeker allowance is definitively not an attractive.... what is it, 100 quid a week or so?
Sub-standard is different to third world. Sub-standard still has flushing toilet, electricity, etc. Yes it is not palatial but it should not be, it is council supplied housing and something free should be adequate so to encourage people to better themselves rather than rely on others.
I agree with you on the job seeker allowance not being attractive on its own, but combine that with all the other benefits and the level of the national minimum wage and you can see the 'pull' this has in the EU. I'm not arguing about the benefits though, introducing the 'control' mechanism to EU migrants would solve this issue and resolve the issue I have of a critical system missing a control point.
why is not this attractive benefits package "attractive" to the 2m unemployed or the 600k who are under 25 and been on the dole for 12months or more?
if you r 21yo and worked for 35hours per week, you d earn £234 pounds, pay some NI but the no or little tax.
and should we vote OUT, what is going to change? there is right now, nothing stopping the single unemployed from working, if there really is nothing local, then moving to an area where there is work, i had to do this and its horrible but its not as bad as claiming benefits.
i m not voting out, because as far as i can see, our problems are of our own making ie a combination of benefits trap and a lack of education/work ethic and not the EU's0 -
The last time I ate out (last week) we were served exclusively by Polish ladies. I did think about all the British people here who could easily do that job instead...but I suspect they couldn't be arsed because of the UK benefit culture. It takes a lot of guts to up-sticks and travel half way around europe in order to get a better quality of life and yet a large percentage of the UK cannot even be bothered to work if it means catching a bus or, heaven forbid, ride a bike.
Yes, I do resent the sheer number of Poles over here...but I think I equally resent the lazy feckers who have made the jobs (the Poles have taken) such easy pickings.0 -
mamba80 wrote:why is not this attractive benefits package "attractive" to the 2m unemployed or the 600k who are under 25 and been on the dole for 12months or more?
if you r 21yo and worked for 35hours per week, you d earn £234 pounds, pay some NI but the no or little tax.
and should we vote OUT, what is going to change? there is right now, nothing stopping the single unemployed from working, if there really is nothing local, then moving to an area where there is work, i had to do this and its horrible but its not as bad as claiming benefits.
i m not voting out, because as far as i can see, our problems are of our own making ie a combination of benefits trap and a lack of education/work ethic and not the EU's
The first thing migration 'control' can do is remove the unlimited supply of workers for these £234 a week jobs. Then the dole claimants will not be able to claim someone else was given the job who was better educated, etc and thus the removal of benefits process will kick in for them.
These claimants will not move to a different area for £234 a week. The reality is you and I do not have the same mindset as some of those claiming. You are to be admired for doing what you have done to find work. I have similarly moved around the country to progress my career
Yes, there are problems of our own making but that is not what this vote is about. Remaining with uncontrolled EU migration is storing up a huge future problem. There has to be a limit to the number of people this country can support and I'm sure we all have a different number of what this can be(no one on the remain side can say what this number is though!). We have a chance to change this now rather than wait until we breach that number and when it will be too late. Those currently residing in the UK with suffer whatever consequences this reality brings.0 -
Vote leave and get someone lazy as your waiter. I might have misinterpreted the message there.0
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the idea that the predominately right-wing, rich, powerful, scumbags who are all hot and sweaty for 'out' would ever restrict immigration is laughable
they want out of the eu to be free to further strip rights from people with no annoying restraint from eu/echr, or simply because they live in a fantasy world of empire that was already dying in the nineteenth century
either way, they will not suffer from the negative effects of brexit, they can afford to spout their nonsense
the immigration hoohah is simply pandering to the base tendency to hate the 'other', as they know it will get out that vote
if the vote is 'out', the low paying jobs will still be there, they will not pay more, they might even pay less, and they'll happily employ anyone they can get at those rates
the usa has strict controls, but every year huge numbers of locals lose their jobs to lower cost workers shipped in on h1b visas by large corporations - in some cases getting to train their replacements before being riffed - and of course the flow of migrants from the south, 'illegal' but happily employed in huge numbers because they'e cheap and will do the jobs the locals won't touch, which is why no state really wants to stop them, they love all those cheap labourers that they don't need to provide with even basic services, the new slaves
if uk governments of the last thirty years had spent more time engaging with the eu to fix some of the stupidity, playing the game exactly as the french do, we'd all be better off today, instead the very people whinging about it were the ones who failed to do it
the uk's problem isn't the eu, it's the gutless, hypocritical, self-serving , lying, log rolling, thieving, dogfuckers, of all parties, that run the country, together with the cosy revolving door into industry that has corrupted the senior civil service for so long
we don't need brexit, we need a revolutionmy bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
No one on the "out" side is saying how many people is too many either. The whole "too many people" argument is quite complex anyway...
What exactly defines too many people, too many people for what exactly? Too many for the NHS? The NHS isn't a fixed size though. Plus our "indiginous" population is heavily skewed to pensioners, who are, in the nicest possible way, a drain on the NHS, they don't contribute tax and they generally have higher requirements. For the NHS, immigration which skews the population to a more younger healthier average can't be too bad.
Too many for the plot of land? I agree that the south is pretty congested, but there is plenty of "room" elswhere".
Too many for schools? Well more tax payers, more tax income, more schools surely?You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
[post deleted for making generalisations based on nationality]left the forum March 20230
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Coopster the 1st wrote:mamba80 wrote:why is not this attractive benefits package "attractive" to the 2m unemployed or the 600k who are under 25 and been on the dole for 12months or more?
if you r 21yo and worked for 35hours per week, you d earn £234 pounds, pay some NI but the no or little tax.
and should we vote OUT, what is going to change? there is right now, nothing stopping the single unemployed from working, if there really is nothing local, then moving to an area where there is work, i had to do this and its horrible but its not as bad as claiming benefits.
i m not voting out, because as far as i can see, our problems are of our own making ie a combination of benefits trap and a lack of education/work ethic and not the EU's
The first thing migration 'control' can do is remove the unlimited supply of workers for these £234 a week jobs. Then the dole claimants will not be able to claim someone else was given the job who was better educated, etc and thus the removal of benefits process will kick in for them.
These claimants will not move to a different area for £234 a week. The reality is you and I do not have the same mindset as some of those claiming. You are to be admired for doing what you have done to find work. I have similarly moved around the country to progress my career
Yes, there are problems of our own making but that is not what this vote is about. Remaining with uncontrolled EU migration is storing up a huge future problem. There has to be a limit to the number of people this country can support and I'm sure we all have a different number of what this can be(no one on the remain side can say what this number is though!). We have a chance to change this now rather than wait until we breach that number and when it will be too late. Those currently residing in the UK with suffer whatever consequences this reality brings.
try and substitute the initials UK for EU. The South East of England props up the rest of the UK to a far greater degree than the EU leaches off the UK. If Greater London was a nation state it could, like Hong Kong, effectively forgo income tax. Instead we transfer massive sums of money to the regions and have to accept unlimited immigration.
Now assuming you think that is OK then those of us supporting IN think the same about EU membership.0 -
sungod wrote:the idea that the predominately right-wing, rich, powerful, scumbags who are all hot and sweaty for 'out' would ever restrict immigration is laughable
they want out of the eu to be free to further strip rights from people with no annoying restraint from eu/echr, or simply because they live in a fantasy world of empire that was already dying in the nineteenth century
either way, they will not suffer from the negative effects of brexit, they can afford to spout their nonsense
the immigration hoohah is simply pandering to the base tendency to hate the 'other', as they know it will get out that vote
if the vote is 'out', the low paying jobs will still be there, they will not pay more, they might even pay less, and they'll happily employ anyone they can get at those rates
the usa has strict controls, but every year huge numbers of locals lose their jobs to lower cost workers shipped in on h1b visas by large corporations - in some cases getting to train their replacements before being riffed - and of course the flow of migrants from the south, 'illegal' but happily employed in huge numbers because they'e cheap and will do the jobs the locals won't touch, which is why no state really wants to stop them, they love all those cheap labourers that they don't need to provide with even basic services, the new slaves
if uk governments of the last thirty years had spent more time engaging with the eu to fix some of the stupidity, playing the game exactly as the french do, we'd all be better off today, instead the very people whinging about it were the ones who failed to do it
the uk's problem isn't the eu, it's the gutless, hypocritical, self-serving , lying, log rolling, thieving, dogfuckers, of all parties, that run the country, together with the cosy revolving door into industry that has corrupted the senior civil service for so long
we don't need brexit, we need a revolution
this is not well put but I agree with the sentiment.
To paraphrase
The Brexiteers are only out for their own career gains and will be immune from any downside. From a UK point of view the EU is not perfect but they are part of the elite who have failed to make it so. I would up the blame from 30 to 60 years to include those who did not sign us up as initial members.
Not sure that a revolution would be terribly British but some selective use of the guillotine may make the surviving dogfuckers more attentive.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession. My Uni recruits about 10% of non EU undergraduate students, in fear they would lower the stats, by underachieving... I am not even sure there has ever been a comprehensive review showing that being the case... other EU universities are on 40% and seem to manage fine
So to clear, you are accusing Warwick University of institutional racism ?0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession. My Uni recruits about 10% of non EU undergraduate students, in fear they would lower the stats, by underachieving... I am not even sure there has ever been a comprehensive review showing that being the case... other EU universities are on 40% and seem to manage fine
As a fairly recent graduate, I would say my experience of non eu undergraduates was pretty poor on the whole.
Aside from a group who were on a scholarship from BP, the ones I had to do group work with either couldn't speak English (but could do engineering) or could speak English but couldn't do engineering (or touch type/use excel for that matter)
Of course, there wwre plenty of poor students from the UK but generally they didn't get on my particular course...You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
MikeBrew wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession. My Uni recruits about 10% of non EU undergraduate students, in fear they would lower the stats, by underachieving... I am not even sure there has ever been a comprehensive review showing that being the case... other EU universities are on 40% and seem to manage fine
So to clear, you are accusing Warwick University of institutional racism ?
I'm at Warwick studying part-time at the business school and everytime I go there I get the impression the business school at least is well over 10% non-EU... more like 80% Chinese. No racism there - just profiteering off the high fees they seem to be prepared to pay. Apparently some courses got upwards of 90% Chinese applications.0 -
bobmcstuff wrote:MikeBrew wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession. My Uni recruits about 10% of non EU undergraduate students, in fear they would lower the stats, by underachieving... I am not even sure there has ever been a comprehensive review showing that being the case... other EU universities are on 40% and seem to manage fine
So to clear, you are accusing Warwick University of institutional racism ?
I'm at Warwick studying part-time at the business school and everytime I go there I get the impression the business school at least is well over 10% non-EU... more like 80% Chinese. No racism there - just profiteering off the high fees they seem to be prepared to pay. Apparently some courses got upwards of 90% Chinese applications.
Well that sounds far more plausible than Ugo's half baked assertion...Of course the demographic may be different in his chemistry dept, but he did make the comment in relation to the Uni as a whole. I think that we really do need to know if he is actually accusing Warick university of institutional racism, it certainly does appear that he might be. If so, that along with apparently branding the whole UK xenophobic in one broad stroke, would appear rather extreme.0 -
I have had a bit spre time on my hands so have looked out the stats... Which is not as easy as you would expect.
Uk trade debit In goods and services in 2014 was £65bn. I could not find a more up to date number but as EU GDP is circa £11 trillion. I believe thos makes 5he EU trade surplus with the Uk just over half of one %.
unemployment in this country is 1.7million (not 2 million) this is arguably our natural rate of unemployment... Or everybody who wants a job has one. Does not mean 1.7 million scrounges as will always be people in transition or economically inactive for different reasons0 -
MikeBrew wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession. My Uni recruits about 10% of non EU undergraduate students, in fear they would lower the stats, by underachieving... I am not even sure there has ever been a comprehensive review showing that being the case... other EU universities are on 40% and seem to manage fine
So to clear, you are accusing Warwick University of institutional racism ?
You clearly have no idea of boundaries. Everybody else on this forum understands where the line lies why can't you? And if it is not for you go and inhabit the rest of the Internet where you can dwell with fellow travellers.0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:mamba80 wrote:why is not this attractive benefits package "attractive" to the 2m unemployed or the 600k who are under 25 and been on the dole for 12months or more?
if you r 21yo and worked for 35hours per week, you d earn £234 pounds, pay some NI but the no or little tax.
and should we vote OUT, what is going to change? there is right now, nothing stopping the single unemployed from working, if there really is nothing local, then moving to an area where there is work, i had to do this and its horrible but its not as bad as claiming benefits.
i m not voting out, because as far as i can see, our problems are of our own making ie a combination of benefits trap and a lack of education/work ethic and not the EU's
The first thing migration 'control' can do is remove the unlimited supply of workers for these £234 a week jobs. Then the dole claimants will not be able to claim someone else was given the job who was better educated, etc and thus the removal of benefits process will kick in for them.
These claimants will not move to a different area for £234 a week. The reality is you and I do not have the same mindset as some of those claiming. You are to be admired for doing what you have done to find work. I have similarly moved around the country to progress my career
Yes, there are problems of our own making but that is not what this vote is about. Remaining with uncontrolled EU migration is storing up a huge future problem. There has to be a limit to the number of people this country can support and I'm sure we all have a different number of what this can be(no one on the remain side can say what this number is though!). We have a chance to change this now rather than wait until we breach that number and when it will be too late. Those currently residing in the UK with suffer whatever consequences this reality brings.
At the end of the day, the limits to immigration is job supply and housing, if we had a contributory benefits system, then that would mean no one could come here and and just claim benefits or get HB if their wage was low enough, until they d paid in.
Of course longer term, it is in our own interests to boost trade with eastern europe, this will make their economies more attractive to their own young people, the EU has just started doing this with Eritrea and in Europe, many more educated Poles are returning home, such as my Polish friend, i met whilst out cycling, he has been here for 8 years and now has better paid work back home.
Incidentally, i do agree with Sungod regarding root causes but we aint going to get a revolution
, so we need to be pragmatic. 0 -
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MikeBrew wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:MikeBrew wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession. My Uni recruits about 10% of non EU undergraduate students, in fear they would lower the stats, by underachieving... I am not even sure there has ever been a comprehensive review showing that being the case... other EU universities are on 40% and seem to manage fine
So to clear, you are accusing Warwick University of institutional racism ?
You clearly have no idea of boundaries. Everybody else on this forum understands where the line lies why can't you? And if it is not for you go and inhabit the rest of the Internet where you can dwell with fellow travellers.
Frankly i think that you have no idea what the fork you're talking about . If you think that it is OK for Ugo, or anyone else, to make sweeping statements about the British being obsessively xenophobic, and "back it up" with unsubstantiated statements about "his Uni" then I think that maybe a previous posters character assessment of you hit the nail smack bang on the head :
Anonymity is all well and good while talking about bicycles and other such trivial pursuits, but lets face it a lot of folk on here know exactly who Ugo is and where he works, so his claims about that establishment either have to be backed up or left unsaid. And let's not forget, he used so called facts about his workplace - a UK University to back up the outrageous statement :Mr Goo wrote:Btw. Do you talk to your other half, people or you kids like your responses? Or are you a faceless, loner 40s+ ********* that likes to hide behind a computer screen in your bedroom at mum and dads?Ugo wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession
What he then followed up with is s an outrageous claim for anyone to make about any UK university, named or not - unless they are going to substantiate their claims.
In truth, even if the percentages that he quotes are correct, that is probably more down to the size of the Uni population and the huge fees that non EU students would have to pay to attend . As already mentioned by a student of Warick, very few Uni's will turn away non EU students precisely because of the revenue from massive fees that such students have to pay.
If any one doesn't know where the line is, I submit that that person is him [and by implication , you also]. My advice to you would be to limit your concerns to simple things like which set of wheels you buy next - from what I've read that trivial topic is quite serious enough to cause you more than your fair share of angst and uncertainty. In my opinion many of Ugo's posts are targeted for consumption by the likes of yourself. If you can see nothing wrong with his post that I replied to, then you must be incredibly naive.
Go on then I'll bite - show me my angst and uncertainty about wheels0 -
My vote is posted off.0
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Surrey Commuter wrote:Mr Goo wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:Mr Goo wrote:If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).
Why did you state this as a fact?
Why did you not highlight the fact it is y8our opinion?
Why did you not give a source for your information?
Against some tough competition this is probably the stupidest thing I have read on this thread.
In my opinion. Happy now?
Btw. Do you talk to your other half, people or you kids like your responses? Or are you a faceless, loner 40s+ * that likes to hide behind a computer screen in your bedroom at mum and dads?
I will moderate my opinion to it being one of the dumbest things I have read. Why don't you explain what your opinion is based upon. Read your comment back - you are saying that the EU will say it is not decisive enough and force us to stay!!! the whole point of the referendum is that we have the unilateral right to opt out.
I think I can guess upon you you are basing your stereotype
This is MY OPINION. Nothing has been mentioned by either campaign about a very close result' ie; an EXIT win by 0.5%-3%. Given the Remain campaigns aggressive scaremongering, it is MY OPINION that the government, house of commons and the EU will intervene and declare that it was not decisive enough. Lets face it, if the UK does leave, then financially the EU as an organisation is financial screwed, given that one of the three nett contributors has decided to leave.
On the flip side if its a very close called Remain victory, the 'Democracy and Common Sense has Spoken' will be the declaration from Cameron and Osborne. And all the banks and financial institutions can rest easy. IN MY OPINION this is what the EU referendum seems to all be about for the Remain Campaigners.....The Banking Industry and The Banking Industry.
These are MY VIEWS, MY OPINIONS. MY OBSERVATIONS.
Are they right are they wrong?, who knows.
But do not insult me or anyone else on this forum or thread because of your London/Commuter/Metropolitan centric standpoint. There are plenty out there who want to leave, mostly outside London I WOULD THINK. Infact I have only met one person who is going to vote to Remain. Are WE ALL STUPID and poorly educated outside of London and Leafy Surrey?Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
Both sides are scaremongering, I don't think there is any doubt about that.Mr Goo wrote:Given the Remain campaigns aggressive scaremongering0 -
Veronese68 wrote:
Both sides are scaremongering, I don't think there is any doubt about that.Mr Goo wrote:Given the Remain campaigns aggressive scaremongering
My side is warning of a very likely outcome, the other side is scare mongering.0 -
Screw the European Onion! CS7
Surrey Hills
What's a Zwift?0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Fear of the foreigner is a very British obsession. My Uni recruits about 10% of non EU undergraduate students, in fear they would lower the stats, by underachieving... I am not even sure there has ever been a comprehensive review showing that being the case... other EU universities are on 40% and seem to manage fine
That's very true and IMO stems from the reality that so few people ever go abroad. Leave aside the people that go to "Spain" only to stay in British enclaves or their middle class equivalents who go to Thailand and stay in beach hotels where the only Thai they meet is the barman or the maid, very few of my uni friends have left to live abroad for even the shortest amount of time (say, the Erasmus scheme).
Living abroad gives you a much wider view of the world, and in particular gives you an outsiders view of your own country - something that Farage and a great deal of UKIP voters could do with.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0
