BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    the question i d like to have seen Cameron asked yesterday on ITV, was "if the stakes are so high, why did you call this vote?" Tory self interest so i win an election, might not have been the answer he d have given!!!

    Apparently, until he promised a vote, the EU didnt even figure in the electorates top 10 concerns, domestic issues filled this list together with international terrorism.

    As for what the EU will or wont negotiate with the UK, we dont know, we would obviously be in the weaker position as uk population would still want to buy all the eu goods and at the same price we pay now, meaning the uk could nt threaten any retaliatory tariffs if the eu made life awkward for us, meanwhile our FS can relocate to Euroland, bribed with some nice big cheques to do so.
    its also obvious that if we introduce a points style immigration system, that inc eu citizens then the eu will do the same for our citizens too and as so much of our healthcare and manufacturing is propped up by unskilled or semi skilled workers, we d still be bring in workers from somewhere in the world and tbh, i d rather bring in unskilled workers from europe than permanent ones from Africa or Asia, after all, as east europes economy picks up (poland has europes fastest growing economy) Poles etc are likely to return, a family from Asia wont.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    Apparently there is already a points based immigration system for non EU incomers, which is sort of not working if the objective was to control the numbers coming in.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Lookyhere wrote:
    the question i d like to have seen Cameron asked yesterday on ITV, was "if the stakes are so high, why did you call this vote?" Tory self interest so i win an election, might not have been the answer he d have given!!!

    Apparently, until he promised a vote, the EU didnt even figure in the electorates top 10 concerns, domestic issues filled this list together with international terrorism.

    As for what the EU will or wont negotiate with the UK, we dont know, we would obviously be in the weaker position as uk population would still want to buy all the eu goods and at the same price we pay now, meaning the uk could nt threaten any retaliatory tariffs if the eu made life awkward for us, meanwhile our FS can relocate to Euroland, bribed with some nice big cheques to do so.
    its also obvious that if we introduce a points style immigration system, that inc eu citizens then the eu will do the same for our citizens too and as so much of our healthcare and manufacturing is propped up by unskilled or semi skilled workers, we d still be bring in workers from somewhere in the world and tbh, i d rather bring in unskilled workers from europe than permanent ones from Africa or Asia, after all, as east europes economy picks up (poland has europes fastest growing economy) Poles etc are likely to return, a family from Asia wont.

    Back in December before a package was negotiated with the EU, Cameron stated that he would campaign to leave if a deal couldn't be done. He obviously didn't feel that leaving would be the disaster he now claims in the scaremongering.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-benefits
  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    orraloon wrote:
    Apparently there is already a points based immigration system for non EU incomers, which is sort of not working if the objective was to control the numbers coming in.

    such is our dire education system, laziness and a non contributory benefits culture that keeps you on them, this immigration issue wont go away in or out.
    What no one is addressing is, why with 2m unemployed, plus many more on various schemes to keep them off the figures, we need to import unskilled labour? we ve also got 631,000 u25's unemployed for over 12 months !!!

    so if a pr of 19yo Romanians can get in a car, drive to the UK and get a job picking fruit/packing boxes or what ever in the UK, why cant our home grown unemployed?
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    I wonder if there is going to be an exodus of old wrinklies from the green pastures of the Costa Del Whatever when they can no longer draw their pensions and benefits in the EU - because Spain will be classed as 'abroad' surely?
    I imagine that it would be not be much/any different to drawing their pensions in New Zealand (as an example).

    You should know me by now Blakey.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    the question i d like to have seen Cameron asked yesterday on ITV, was "if the stakes are so high, why did you call this vote?" Tory self interest so i win an election, might not have been the answer he d have given!!!

    Apparently, until he promised a vote, the EU didnt even figure in the electorates top 10 concerns, domestic issues filled this list together with international terrorism.

    As for what the EU will or wont negotiate with the UK, we dont know, we would obviously be in the weaker position as uk population would still want to buy all the eu goods and at the same price we pay now, meaning the uk could nt threaten any retaliatory tariffs if the eu made life awkward for us, meanwhile our FS can relocate to Euroland, bribed with some nice big cheques to do so.
    its also obvious that if we introduce a points style immigration system, that inc eu citizens then the eu will do the same for our citizens too and as so much of our healthcare and manufacturing is propped up by unskilled or semi skilled workers, we d still be bring in workers from somewhere in the world and tbh, i d rather bring in unskilled workers from europe than permanent ones from Africa or Asia, after all, as east europes economy picks up (poland has europes fastest growing economy) Poles etc are likely to return, a family from Asia wont.

    Back in December before a package was negotiated with the EU, Cameron stated that he would campaign to leave if a deal couldn't be done. He obviously didn't feel that leaving would be the disaster he now claims in the scaremongering.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-benefits

    Doesnt that show a complete lack of intelligence? and/or he never thought it through. When so many business sectors claim it will lead to disinvestment and have been warning of this for years, he shouldnt have put the country in potential peril as he has done.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    Lookyhere wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Apparently there is already a points based immigration system for non EU incomers, which is sort of not working if the objective was to control the numbers coming in.

    such is our dire education system, laziness and a non contributory benefits culture that keeps you on them, this immigration issue wont go away in or out.
    What no one is addressing is, why with 2m unemployed, plus many more on various schemes to keep them off the figures, we need to import unskilled labour? we ve also got 631,000 u25's unemployed for over 12 months !!!

    so if a pr of 19yo Romanians can get in a car, drive to the UK and get a job picking fruit/packing boxes or what ever in the UK, why cant our home grown unemployed?

    This.

    Without reciprocal arrangements, if boat loads of people want to come across La Manche to the new off shore nation, maybe the French will give them rubber dinghies.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    edited June 2016
    Lookyhere wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Apparently there is already a points based immigration system for non EU incomers, which is sort of not working if the objective was to control the numbers coming in.

    such is our dire education system, laziness and a non contributory benefits culture that keeps you on them, this immigration issue wont go away in or out.
    What no one is addressing is, why with 2m unemployed, plus many more on various schemes to keep them off the figures, we need to import unskilled labour? we ve also got 631,000 u25's unemployed for over 12 months !!!

    so if a pr of 19yo Romanians can get in a car, drive to the UK and get a job picking fruit/packing boxes or what ever in the UK, why cant our home grown unemployed?

    it's the usual barking at the wrong tree case. There isn't a case in history where immigration caused the nation to get poorer... not even the East-West Germany case... even then they didn't get poorer!! there are however cases where finger pointing the foreigner has turned sour, even economically.

    The same happens everywhere else, who do you think pick the grapes in Tuscany? Romanians, not Italians.

    So what is the real problem? Simple, the pay is driven by the market, therefore unskilled labour is paid less than doing nothing... the real problem that should be address is why the poor bastard who earns minimum wage should spenjd a portion of it to watch a bunch of multimillionaires kicking a ball... why shouldn't the millionaires pay good money to go and watch the poor bastards pick strawberries in the fields?
    Address social injustice and you might be up to something...

    It's funny how those who really want Brexit are the most likely to suffer from it
    left the forum March 2023
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Always perplexed by the argument that there was no appetite for a referendum on the EU, espoused by some that are fearful that 50+% will vote to leave.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Apparently there is already a points based immigration system for non EU incomers, which is sort of not working if the objective was to control the numbers coming in.

    such is our dire education system, laziness and a non contributory benefits culture that keeps you on them, this immigration issue wont go away in or out.
    What no one is addressing is, why with 2m unemployed, plus many more on various schemes to keep them off the figures, we need to import unskilled labour? we ve also got 631,000 u25's unemployed for over 12 months !!!

    so if a pr of 19yo Romanians can get in a car, drive to the UK and get a job picking fruit/packing boxes or what ever in the UK, why cant our home grown unemployed?

    it's the usual barking at the wrong tree case. There isn't a case in history where immigration caused the nation to get poorer... there are however cases where finger pointing the foreigner has turned sour, even economically.

    The same happens everywhere else, who do you think pick the grapes in Tuscany? Romanians, not Italians.

    So what is the real problem? Simple, the pay is driven by the market, therefore unskilled labour is paid less than doing nothing... the real problem that should be address is why the poor bastard who earns minimum wage should spenjd a portion of it to watch a bunch of multimillionaires kicking a ball... why shouldn't the millionaires pay good money to go and watch the poor bastards pick strawberries in the fields?
    Address social injustice and you might be up to something...

    It's funny how those who really want Brexit are the most likely to suffer from it

    As Looky says, there are 2m unemployed in this country so in theory there should be no jobs for immigrants to come to. In previous threads, the generous benefits culture has been highlighted and lefties have howled that the unemployed are all seeking work.
    As regards your watching football analogy, it is free choice what people do with their dosh. If someone wants to blow his wages on watching football, that's his choice.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    The 'generous' benefit system is our fault (if it's true). The lack of a healthy work ethic amongst the long term unemployed is our fault.
    Leaving the EU is not going to change either.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    So what is the real problem? Simple, the pay is driven by the market, therefore unskilled labour is paid less than doing nothing... the real problem that should be address is why the poor bastard who earns minimum wage should spenjd a portion of it to watch a bunch of multimillionaires kicking a ball... why shouldn't the millionaires pay good money to go and watch the poor bastards pick strawberries in the fields?
    Address social injustice and you might be up to something...

    Pay is not driven by the market at the lowest pay point now there is a minimum wage.

    I can't believe that the real problem is paying to watch football. If you can convince me - I'd be up for supporting a ban. Also, if no one paid to watch the footballers, and they spent their time watching strawberry pickers, there wouldn't be any football millionaires would there? What would they do out of strawberry picking season? You haven't thought this through at all.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    If you look at other EU countries, the benefit system is a lot more generous (Germany, Belgium, Holland) I certainly would not be attracted to the UK for the so called "generous benefit system"... third world standard of accomodation plus a miserable job seeker allowance... I don't think it is as attractive as folks make it sound, not even for a Romanian. The idea that Eu migrants come here seeking benefits has been disproved umpteen times by official statistics and yet it's an argument that keeps popping up in the mouths of a bunch of uneducated and loud ignorants, who are the ones that will suffer the most when the pound drops and prices go up, following an hypotetic brexit.
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    KingstonGraham wrote:

    Pay is not driven by the market at the lowest pay point now there is a minimum wage.

    I can't believe that the real problem is paying to watch football. If you can convince me - I'd be up for supporting a ban. Also, if no one paid to watch the footballers, and they spent their time watching strawberry pickers, there wouldn't be any football millionaires would there? What would they do out of strawberry picking season? You haven't thought this through at all.

    Can you read between the lines? It was a paradox... and minimum wage is imposed, but still driven by the market... if it wasn't and it had to represent the minimum wage for a decent standard of living, it would be a lot higher
    left the forum March 2023
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    Pinno wrote:
    You should know me by now Blakey.
    I do. but that does not detract from me being pissed off by the bullshit being put out by both sides, project daydream and project fear.
    I propose that in any future referendum that any officials putting out lies be jailed for 10 years, and any putting out unsubstantiated "facts" get 5 years.
    Opinions on here can quite right be ignored.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • MikeBrew
    MikeBrew Posts: 814
    edited June 2016
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If you look at other EU countries, the benefit system is a lot more generous (Germany, Belgium, Holland) I certainly would not be attracted to the UK for the so called "generous benefit system"... third world standard of accomodation plus a miserable job seeker allowance... I don't think it is as attractive as folks make it sound, not even for a Romanian. The idea that Eu migrants come here seeking benefits has been disproved umpteen times by official statistics and yet it's an argument that keeps popping up in the mouths of a bunch of uneducated and loud ignorants, who are the ones that will suffer the most when the pound drops and prices go up, following an hypotetic brexit.


    Clearly you find something about the UK very attractive as you choose to live and work here, despite your very often derisive comments about anything from our currency to our topography. Clearly the UK offers you benefits over Italy - the country that you have so much admiration for and yet choose not to live in.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    You...Blakey.
    ...project daydream and project fear.

    I think that sums it up quite neatly.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).

    Why did you state this as a fact?
    Why did you not highlight the fact it is y8our opinion?
    Why did you not give a source for your information?

    Against some tough competition this is probably the stupidest thing I have read on this thread.

    In my opinion. Happy now?

    Btw. Do you talk to your other half, people or you kids like your responses? Or are you a faceless, loner 40s+ ********* that likes to hide behind a computer screen in your bedroom at mum and dads?
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    MikeBrew wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I...brexit.

    Clearly you find something about the UK very attractive as you choose to live and work here, despite your very often derisive comments about anything from our currency to our topography. Clearly the UK offers you benefits over Italy - the country that you have so much admiration for and yet choose not to live in.

    No matter where you live, you cannot be blind to endemic problems. No country is perfect.

    I have been subject to the very xenophobic, one dimensional 'if you don't like it...' or 'if it's so good over there... ... why don't you go back' comments periodically, for a long time. If you cannot see the flaws and the prejudice in that, then join your other soul mates in UKIP and get a Swastika tattoo'd onto your forehead.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Given the crash on the registration site last night, this looks like it could have the highest turnout of any election/referendum - certainly higher than last years general election.

    I think the losing side will find it hard to justify disputing the result.
  • MikeBrew
    MikeBrew Posts: 814
    edited June 2016
    Pinno wrote:
    MikeBrew wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If you look at other EU countries, the benefit system is a lot more generous (Germany, Belgium, Holland) I certainly would not be attracted to the UK for the so called "generous benefit system"... third world standard of accomodation plus a miserable job seeker allowance... I don't think it is as attractive as folks make it sound, not even for a Romanian. The idea that Eu migrants come here seeking benefits has been disproved umpteen times by official statistics and yet it's an argument that keeps popping up in the mouths of a bunch of uneducated and loud ignorants, who are the ones that will suffer the most when the pound drops and prices go up, following an hypotetic brexit.
    Clearly you find something about the UK very attractive as you choose to live and work here, despite your very often derisive comments about anything from our currency to our topography. Clearly the UK offers you benefits over Italy - the country that you have so much admiration for and yet choose not to live in.
    Pinno wrote:
    I have been subject to the very xenophobic, one dimensional 'if you don't like it...' or 'if it's so good over there... ... why don't you go back' comments periodically, for a long time. If you cannot see the flaws and the prejudice in that, then join your other soul mates in UKIP and get a Swastika tattoo'd onto your forehead.
    Very poor and dubious debating tactic, must try hadrer 5/10

    Poppycock. I know some lovely Italians. Very tediously PC, and a just a tiny bit convenient, to trot out trite accusations about something being "xenophobic" or "racist" when it suits your agenda.
    Besides, I did not say " if it's so good over there... ... why don't you go back' ", those are you words not mine. What I actually said is that he clearly sees a personal benefit in being here over being in Italy. Despite his often derisive comments about the UK.
    Your problem Gregio, is that you try to present as being a lot brighter than you actually are.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    It's the tone and context of your comment.

    I have no idea why you have to use Ugo's apparent (to you) nationality to make a point.

    Sounds like Alf Garnett - 'I know a super black bloke down the local chippy - he's very friendly' . The difference is that Alf Garnett was tongue in cheek, whereas you aren't.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • MikeBrew
    MikeBrew Posts: 814
    edited June 2016
    As already said Gregio, your comments are more trite than bright. Your comments - Your characterizations. It really is a very disingenuous debating tactic. By the way, have you looked up what a participle actually is yet ? :wink:
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).

    Why did you state this as a fact?
    Why did you not highlight the fact it is y8our opinion?
    Why did you not give a source for your information?

    Against some tough competition this is probably the stupidest thing I have read on this thread.

    In my opinion. Happy now?

    Btw. Do you talk to your other half, people or you kids like your responses? Or are you a faceless, loner 40s+ * that likes to hide behind a computer screen in your bedroom at mum and dads?

    I will moderate my opinion to it being one of the dumbest things I have read. Why don't you explain what your opinion is based upon. Read your comment back - you are saying that the EU will say it is not decisive enough and force us to stay!!! the whole point of the referendum is that we have the unilateral right to opt out.

    I think I can guess upon you you are basing your stereotype
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    MikeBrew wrote:
    As already said Gregio, your comments are more trite than bright. Your comments - Your characterizations. It really is a very disingenuous debating tactic. By the way, have you looked up what a participle actually is yet ? :wink:

    Come on - surely you can add to that? That's a hopeless 'put someone down' effort.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • MikeBrew
    MikeBrew Posts: 814
    Pinno wrote:
    MikeBrew wrote:
    As already said Gregio, your comments are more trite than bright. Your comments - Your characterizations. It really is a very disingenuous debating tactic. By the way, have you looked up what a participle actually is yet ? :wink:

    Come on - surely you can add to that? That's a hopeless 'put someone down' effort.In my (not very reliable) opinion


    So... Participle ? You can also look up disingenuous while you're there and see where you're going wrong.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,316
    edited June 2016
    ....
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:

    Pay is not driven by the market at the lowest pay point now there is a minimum wage.

    I can't believe that the real problem is paying to watch football. If you can convince me - I'd be up for supporting a ban. Also, if no one paid to watch the footballers, and they spent their time watching strawberry pickers, there wouldn't be any football millionaires would there? What would they do out of strawberry picking season? You haven't thought this through at all.

    Can you read between the lines? It was a paradox... and minimum wage is imposed, but still driven by the market... if it wasn't and it had to represent the minimum wage for a decent standard of living, it would be a lot higher

    Imposed but still driven by the market? That would be a paradox (if it really existed). It may be set at a level that companies can reasonably afford, but that is not the same as being driven by the market.

    And you didn't answer what people would do out of strawberry season.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Most of what I am reading over the last two pages is attacking of characters, either posters or the politicians supporting the leave side. This is mainly coming from the remainers.

    This referendum is not about who is leading either campaign and if your view is influenced by this you are supplying air to a poor debate.

    MikeBrew is making a very reasonable point about Ugo's argument of why someone who constantly puts down the UK way of life (3rd world standard of accomodation, etc) but still chooses to continue to live in these conditions.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    MikeBrew is making a very reasonable point about Ugo's argument of why someone who constantly puts down the UK way of life (3rd world standard of accomodation, etc) but still chooses to continue to live in these conditions.

    Read again what ugo wrote in the post mentioning third world accommodation. It is very specifically about the UK not being attractive for people coming just for benefits. Not about the UK in general.

    I find a lot of things in the UK tiresome, but still think it's a good place to live.

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