BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    PeteMadoc wrote:
    The BHS thing really confuses me and I've seen it happen before. How can an unsuccessful company making losses pay out large wages and dividends and then fold. Seems like daylight robbery.

    At the moment most of the oil & gas companies are sacking people while simultaneously borrowing large sums of money to allow them to continue paying dividends (and thus prop up their share price).

    I don't have a problem with companies laying off workers if they are losing money, or with companies paying out big dividends and wages to their bosses if they are making money - but paying out lots of money to managers/shareholders while at the same time losing money and sacking people doesn't seem very moral.

    Does this make you in or out?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    briantrumpet wrote:
    JoeNobody wrote:
    So, again (in my opinion), it's just not worth it.
    And that ain't sexy. There's the rub.

    Essentially all Remain can say is "We know it's not perfect, but it's kinda working." That's a hard sell, however you package it.

    And won't have them jumping out of bed 10 mins early to cast their vote... Which is why you get all the scare stories
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    PeteMadoc wrote:
    The BHS thing really confuses me and I've seen it happen before. How can an unsuccessful company making losses pay out large wages and dividends and then fold. Seems like daylight robbery.

    At the moment most of the oil & gas companies are sacking people while simultaneously borrowing large sums of money to allow them to continue paying dividends (and thus prop up their share price).

    I don't have a problem with companies laying off workers if they are losing money, or with companies paying out big dividends and wages to their bosses if they are making money - but paying out lots of money to managers/shareholders while at the same time losing money and sacking people doesn't seem very moral.

    Does this make you in or out?

    It doesn't really affect my feelings on the EU, maybe they could have tried to put in some sort of fair play rules or something but I don't think that's exclusively the EU's responsibility (we could be doing it ourselves). It seems that most of these companies are either UK or US registered, but I think that's more to do with where big companies choose to be listed.

    I am in FWIW.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    PeteMadoc wrote:
    The BHS thing really confuses me and I've seen it happen before. How can an unsuccessful company making losses pay out large wages and dividends and then fold. Seems like daylight robbery.

    At the moment most of the oil & gas companies are sacking people while simultaneously borrowing large sums of money to allow them to continue paying dividends (and thus prop up their share price).

    I don't have a problem with companies laying off workers if they are losing money, or with companies paying out big dividends and wages to their bosses if they are making money - but paying out lots of money to managers/shareholders while at the same time losing money and sacking people doesn't seem very moral.

    Preach Brother!

    :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    ddraver wrote:
    Gregger wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    this is probably the best precis of the issues - well written and concise

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/ ... eferendum/


    My annual post
    That is a good summary, thanks for that link
    Damned if we stay in, more damned if we leave?

    Yep, thanks, that was good!
    Not a million miles from my overall views on the subject.

    Already stuck my vote in the post.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • secretsam
    secretsam Posts: 5,120
    letap73 wrote:
    However, the likes of Gove, Johnson and Patel will be pushed to the fore in running this country if Brexit was to occur, I would have very serious misgivings as to which direction they will want to steer.

    I can summarise the direction in one word: RIGHT
    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    SecretSam wrote:
    letap73 wrote:
    However, the likes of Gove, Johnson and Patel will be pushed to the fore in running this country if Brexit was to occur, I would have very serious misgivings as to which direction they will want to steer.

    I can summarise the direction in one word: RIGHT
    You could also argue that an 'out' vote might be the one decent chance that Corbyn has to get his hands on the levers of power in the UK, given the political turmoil that a BREXIT will likely cause. Another good reason to vote 'in' :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Some fat woman in Lincoln on the BBC just said we'll be fine if we leave so now I know which way to vote.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    I'm hoping that it's going to play out similar to the Scots referendum... Leave got much closer in the run up to the poll, even leading in some polls, but then come the day it didn't materialise.

    FT still has it's poll of polls at 46% remain to 43% leave (with the rest undecided).
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    SecretSam wrote:
    letap73 wrote:
    However, the likes of Gove, Johnson and Patel will be pushed to the fore in running this country if Brexit was to occur, I would have very serious misgivings as to which direction they will want to steer.

    I can summarise the direction in one word: RIGHT
    You could also argue that an 'out' vote might be the one decent chance that Corbyn has to get his hands on the levers of power in the UK, given the political turmoil that a BREXIT will likely cause. Another good reason to vote 'in' :)

    not even the prize of kicking the Tories out, would have made me vote Leave :shock:

    this referendum has made some strange bedfellows.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    SecretSam wrote:
    letap73 wrote:
    However, the likes of Gove, Johnson and Patel will be pushed to the fore in running this country if Brexit was to occur, I would have very serious misgivings as to which direction they will want to steer.

    I can summarise the direction in one word: RIGHT
    You could also argue that an 'out' vote might be the one decent chance that Corbyn has to get his hands on the levers of power in the UK, given the political turmoil that a BREXIT will likely cause. Another good reason to vote 'in' :)

    not even the prize of kicking the Tories out, would have made me vote Leave :shock:

    this referendum has made some strange bedfellows.
    Sure has - both in politics and on this forum...

    If there is an in vote then I'm sure that normal service will be resumed on or soon after 24th June :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    Bit late now, but reckon Shiny Faced Dave should have weighted votes by IQ. As it is, the leavers don't have to fool all the people all the time, just enough of the people once.

    Macroeconomic / political decision should not be made on sum of micro decisions like whether Joe the Plumber has Polish competition, or Madge thinks there are too many foreigners, of whatever skin tint.

    SFD has to be toast either way surely.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I'm hoping that it's going to play out similar to the Scots referendum... Leave got much closer in the run up to the poll, even leading in some polls, but then come the day it didn't materialise.

    FT still has it's poll of polls at 46% remain to 43% leave (with the rest undecided).

    There's a big difference between the 2 campaigns though, and that difference is that the Scottish "remain" supporters tended to be older people who are more likely to go and vote, whereas the EU "remain" supporters are mainly younger people who are less likely to go and vote.

    Seeing as the government are so desperate to win this one, and the fact that opposition to the EU is known to be stiffest amongst old voters, I'm a bit bemused that the referendum is being held on a weekday. Surely holding it at the weekend would have got a higher turnout of younger voters?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Who wants to give up a weekend to man a polling station or count votes?
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,398
    orraloon wrote:
    Bit late now, but reckon Shiny Faced Dave should have weighted votes by IQ.
    It would keep Labour out of power for generations.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Who wants to give up a weekend to man a polling station or count votes?

    People who get paid for it. It was £75 when I counted votes for the 2001 GE, probably more like £100 now. Not bad for the world's easiest job.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    finchy wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I'm hoping that it's going to play out similar to the Scots referendum... Leave got much closer in the run up to the poll, even leading in some polls, but then come the day it didn't materialise.

    FT still has it's poll of polls at 46% remain to 43% leave (with the rest undecided).

    There's a big difference between the 2 campaigns though, and that difference is that the Scottish "remain" supporters tended to be older people who are more likely to go and vote, whereas the EU "remain" supporters are mainly younger people who are less likely to go and vote.

    Seeing as the government are so desperate to win this one, and the fact that opposition to the EU is known to be stiffest amongst old voters, I'm a bit bemused that the referendum is being held on a weekday. Surely holding it at the weekend would have got a higher turnout of younger voters?


    Or set the polling booths up at post offices on pension day. :lol:
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Well, it'll help you kill 2 birds with 1 stone, Bally. :wink:
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    Vote leave = Christmas come early for Putin
    left the forum March 2023
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Mr Goo wrote:
    If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).

    Why did you state this as a fact?
    Why did you not highlight the fact it is your opinion?
    Why did you not give a source for your information?

    Against some tough competition this is probably the stupidest thing I have read on this thread.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    Interesting that Norway has to pay the EU fees and agree on all the points, including free movement of people, in order to have access to the common market, but don't get to vote... that is what I call getting a good deal, well done Norway!!
    left the forum March 2023
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Interesting that Norway has to pay the EU fees and agree on all the points, including free movement of people, in order to have access to the common market, but don't get to vote... that is what I call getting a good deal, well done Norway!!

    probably more a reflection of where the power lies when an individual country negotiates with the world's largest trading bloc.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Mr Goo wrote:
    If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).

    But if it is a win for Remain, I'm sure that it will be accepted graciously by those in favour of leaving as the democratic decision.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Interesting that Norway has to pay the EU fees and agree on all the points, including free movement of people, in order to have access to the common market, but don't get to vote... that is what I call getting a good deal, well done Norway!!

    probably more a reflection of where the power lies when an individual country negotiates with the world's largest trading bloc.

    It must be plainly obvious to those in power (in the UK & the EU) that there is a big issue with the 'free movement of labour'. I cannot work out how you can build such a critical system without an inbuilt control mechanism. That is stupidity!

    I suspect Norway's trading with the EU is far less than the UK's so the influence is not comparable. Again you seem to be talking down the UK's influence. If you are so negative about the UK and its influence, why are you here?
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).

    But if it is a win for Remain, I'm sure that it will be accepted graciously by those in favour of leaving as the democratic decision.

    Which ever way the vote goes I suspect the result in the 2020 general election will be much more representative of the electorates view on the EU and this referendum result. As it was with Scotland in the 2015 GE
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    If its a 1-3% win for the Leave, Cameron and the EU Commission will state that it is not decisive enough for the UK to exit and that we either vote again or forget it and carry on with EU. So all you out there that are so pro EU worry not and sleep tight, you'll still be a member of a nice cosy little club (for some).

    But if it is a win for Remain, I'm sure that it will be accepted graciously by those in favour of leaving as the democratic decision.

    Which ever way the vote goes I suspect the result in the 2020 general election will be much more representative of the electorates view on the EU and this referendum result. As it was with Scotland in the 2015 GE
    ??????? You have gone from making very little sense to making none.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Interesting that Norway has to pay the EU fees and agree on all the points, including free movement of people, in order to have access to the common market, but don't get to vote... that is what I call getting a good deal, well done Norway!!

    probably more a reflection of where the power lies when an individual country negotiates with the world's largest trading bloc.

    The UK would get the same deal... a different deal would encourage other countries to leave the EU (others aren't happy) and that's not in the EU interest. So same deal as Norway, take it or leave it... the EU is weaker without the UK, but the UK is much weaker outside the EU market... UK needs EU more than the other way round

    I know you like to think you are special and people will treat you differently because you are so important and special... but really that is not the case, as Obama clearly pointed out... outside the EU you are only Great Britain, a small island with a big ego
    left the forum March 2023
  • MikeBrew
    MikeBrew Posts: 814
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    outside the EU you are only Great Britain, a small island with a big ego


    Could it be that, being a small man with a big ego, that commonality is what so attracted you to come to live and work here on our small island ? :wink:
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    The UK would get the same deal... a different deal would encourage other countries to leave the EU (others aren't happy) and that's not in the EU interest. So same deal as Norway, take it or leave it... the EU is weaker without the UK, but the UK is much weaker outside the EU market... UK needs EU more than the other way round

    Yes, BMW/Renault/Fiat will all accept their politicians approach to increasing the costs and administration of what they sell to the UK. The UK is over 20% of BMW's sales. BMW will in no way be telling Merkal how they want Germany to represent them in these negotiations. And that one company in one industry.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I know you like to think you are special and people will treat you differently because you are so important and special... but really that is not the case, as Obama clearly pointed out... outside the EU you are only Great Britain, a small island with a big ego

    I see your issue here. You measure it in egos. I view it in pounds and euros. Pounds and euros will trump egos very quickly. When a bad deal is negative to the EU powerhouse countries (Germany, France, Spain) the views of say Slovakia will be influenced to what is best for the EU powerhouses.

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