BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.0 -
to state that the EU is a political project and the economics is an add on is a sectacular revision of history that is so fvcked up I doubt you couldeven find a single DT article to agree with you.Stevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
The only controversy over joining the CPTTP is claiming a £1.8bn gain in a decade is a big win0 -
Joining the CPTPP seems straightforward now. Complications will begin if China or USA joinrjsterry said:I don't think you can split the two.
Trading bloc needs rules => who sets the rules? => Politicians.
A trading bloc is a political creation. You can't take the eggs out of the cake. At least the EU has a parliament with some limited oversight of the operation of the EU. What's the body overseeing the CPTPP and who decides on any rule changes? I mean, joining wasn't even put to a vote in our parliament, nor was it in the last Conservative manifesto. So is it just at the whim of whoever is in government?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
pblakeney said:
Joining the CPTPP seems straightforward now. Complications will begin if China or USA joinrjsterry said:I don't think you can split the two.
Trading bloc needs rules => who sets the rules? => Politicians.
A trading bloc is a political creation. You can't take the eggs out of the cake. At least the EU has a parliament with some limited oversight of the operation of the EU. What's the body overseeing the CPTPP and who decides on any rule changes? I mean, joining wasn't even put to a vote in our parliament, nor was it in the last Conservative manifesto. So is it just at the whim of whoever is in government?
I think it seems straightforward as it's still quite a woolly concept, at least in terms of where it ends up.
Anyway, I'm sure it'll be great if we can get emergency tomatoes from Brunei when needed.0 -
I believe we have a vetopblakeney said:
Joining the CPTPP seems straightforward now. Complications will begin if China or USA joinrjsterry said:I don't think you can split the two.
Trading bloc needs rules => who sets the rules? => Politicians.
A trading bloc is a political creation. You can't take the eggs out of the cake. At least the EU has a parliament with some limited oversight of the operation of the EU. What's the body overseeing the CPTPP and who decides on any rule changes? I mean, joining wasn't even put to a vote in our parliament, nor was it in the last Conservative manifesto. So is it just at the whim of whoever is in government?
0 -
I asked before if it is in our interests to be the country that blocks China from joining. Is that worth what we get out of it?surrey_commuter said:
I believe we have a vetopblakeney said:
Joining the CPTPP seems straightforward now. Complications will begin if China or USA joinrjsterry said:I don't think you can split the two.
Trading bloc needs rules => who sets the rules? => Politicians.
A trading bloc is a political creation. You can't take the eggs out of the cake. At least the EU has a parliament with some limited oversight of the operation of the EU. What's the body overseeing the CPTPP and who decides on any rule changes? I mean, joining wasn't even put to a vote in our parliament, nor was it in the last Conservative manifesto. So is it just at the whim of whoever is in government?
Nice for the local countries to have us as a reason.
Interesting if Taiwan wants to join too.0 -
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Don't take it from me or the DT, here's what two of the 'founding fathers' of the EU said on the subject:surrey_commuter said:
to state that the EU is a political project and the economics is an add on is a sectacular revision of history that is so fvcked up I doubt you couldeven find a single DT article to agree with you.Stevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
The only controversy over joining the CPTTP is claiming a £1.8bn gain in a decade is a big win
1. Jean Monnet
"There will be no peace in Europe if the States rebuild themselves on the basis of national sovereignty, with its implications of prestige politics and economic protection... The countries of Europe are not strong enough individually to be able to guarantee prosperity and social development for their peoples. The States of Europe must therefore form a federation or a European entity that would make them into a common economic unit."
"The fusion (of economic functions) would compel nations to fuse their sovereignty into that of a single European State."
"There is no real peace in Europe, if the states are reconstituted on a basis of national sovereignty. (…) They must have larger markets. Their prosperity is impossible, unless the States of Europe form themselves in a European Federation."
An author who covered Monnet in a book also wrote this about what he believed:
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”
2. Robert Schuman
“A united Europe was not achieved and we had war. Europe will not be made all at once, or according to a single plan. It will be built through concrete achievements which first create a de facto solidarity”.
Which is also quoted on the strasbourg-eu website.
Trouble is, too many of you swallow the EU's line of 'it's only economic' too easily. An the EU is wise enough to know that if they do it little by little, they will eventually get there: try to do it all at once of too obviously and people/countries will resist."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?0 -
Closer political integration has always part of the EU and indeed the EEC before that, but thats not surprising given large swathes of Europes history has been nations at war with each other; this is seen as a way of making future wars impossible across the continent. Those drivers don't exist with CPTTP and other trade bloks.rick_chasey said:
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
Its a bit disingenous to call that scope creep as this was known and understood in 1975 referendum (not that I was alive to see it, but videos and posters resurfaced at the time of the 2016 one).
But yet to hear a convincing reason why this is a bad thing.0 -
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
A recommended listen
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Any aspirations for a flag, national anthem and single currency?rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?1 -
EU formed 1948, flag 1955, anthem 1972 and currency 1995.TheBigBean said:
Any aspirations for a flag, national anthem and single currency?rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
So the CPTPP formed in 2018 has until 2025, 2042 and 2065 respectively.
The flag range is close enough to call as unlikely in that timescale. It’s too early to tell about the rest.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The EU’s Council of Ministers has never caused too much ire amongst eurosceptics. They are all elected, albeit by different electorates.rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
It’s the Commission, that is appointed, and which for years was the retirement home of failed U.K. politicians that was the eurosceptics’ target. And with the rarely sober Jean-Claude juncker and the rarely competent Ursula vdl as its most recent presidents, one can easily sympathise with the eurosceptics.
0 -
Since when did the Brits dislike drunks (Churchill) or the incompetent (any Tory leader election winner this century)?wallace_and_gromit said:
The EU’s Council of Ministers has never caused too much ire amongst eurosceptics. They are all elected, albeit by different electorates.rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
It’s the Commission, that is appointed, and which for years was the retirement home of failed U.K. politicians that was the eurosceptics’ target. And with the rarely sober Jean-Claude juncker and the rarely competent Ursula vdl as its most recent presidents, one can easily sympathise with the eurosceptics.0 -
Not yet.TheBigBean said:
Any aspirations for a flag, national anthem and single currency?rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
There's also ASEAN, which does have a flag.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
There is already a de facto default global trading currency. USD. So a bit irrelevant.0
-
If you can't see that political integration is a key aim of the EU then you have probably swallowed the EU narrative how line and sinker. Never thought you were that gullible tbh.rick_chasey said:
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I don't know of any other trading blocs who have or want those things.TheBigBean said:
Any aspirations for a flag, national anthem and single currency?rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Why did the EU introduce their own then?morstar said:There is already a de facto default global trading currency. USD. So a bit irrelevant.
0 -
What exactly is the problem with closer political integration? I've never understood the argument personally.Stevo_666 said:
If you can't see that political integration is a key aim of the EU then you have probably swallowed the EU narrative how line and sinker. Never thought you were that gullible tbh.rick_chasey said:
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
0 -
It is mainly an economic integration.Stevo_666 said:
If you can't see that political integration is a key aim of the EU then you have probably swallowed the EU narrative how line and sinker. Never thought you were that gullible tbh.rick_chasey said:
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
That’s a fact you disputed.0 -
It's fine if all the citizens are keen. If they're not it looks more like empire building.super_davo said:
What exactly is the problem with closer political integration? I've never understood the argument personally.Stevo_666 said:
If you can't see that political integration is a key aim of the EU then you have probably swallowed the EU narrative how line and sinker. Never thought you were that gullible tbh.rick_chasey said:
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?0 -
Some people will never understand representative democracy.TheBigBean said:
It's fine if all the citizens are keen. If they're not it looks more like empire building.super_davo said:
What exactly is the problem with closer political integration? I've never understood the argument personally.Stevo_666 said:
If you can't see that political integration is a key aim of the EU then you have probably swallowed the EU narrative how line and sinker. Never thought you were that gullible tbh.rick_chasey said:
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
There is a good reason why being a high functioning democracy is a key part of being a member.0 -
Here you go.Stevo_666 said:
I don't know of any other trading blocs who have or want those things.TheBigBean said:
Any aspirations for a flag, national anthem and single currency?rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASEAN
Significant overlap with CPTPP.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
If it's used more like a corporate logo, so can be filed as decoration, then I'm happy to let it slide.rjsterry said:
Here you go.Stevo_666 said:
I don't know of any other trading blocs who have or want those things.TheBigBean said:
Any aspirations for a flag, national anthem and single currency?rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASEAN
Significant overlap with CPTPP.0 -
I wasn’t claiming the Eurosceptics weren’t exhibiting blatant double standards!rick_chasey said:
Since when did the Brits dislike drunks (Churchill) or the incompetent (any Tory leader election winner this century)?wallace_and_gromit said:
The EU’s Council of Ministers has never caused too much ire amongst eurosceptics. They are all elected, albeit by different electorates.rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
It’s the Commission, that is appointed, and which for years was the retirement home of failed U.K. politicians that was the eurosceptics’ target. And with the rarely sober Jean-Claude juncker and the rarely competent Ursula vdl as its most recent presidents, one can easily sympathise with the eurosceptics.
Though Churchill and the Tory PMs of recent years did all have to win their seat in public elections, which probably offsets drunkenness and incompetence. Jcj was not drunk and unelected, a tough cv to sell to the eurosceptics.
0 -
I don’t think folk are against the idea of reducing the risk of wars assuming that this is what “this” refers to in your final paragraph. The eurosceptic view is that NATO in general and a bazzillion US tanks parked (etc) in the eastern-most parts of Western Europe during the Cold War has maintained peace in Europe rather than the EU.super_davo said:
Closer political integration has always part of the EU and indeed the EEC before that, but thats not surprising given large swathes of Europes history has been nations at war with each other; this is seen as a way of making future wars impossible across the continent. Those drivers don't exist with CPTTP and other trade bloks.rick_chasey said:
I know proportions are difficult for you, but I can’t really help you here as it’s self evident the integration is much deeper economically than it is politically.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
Its a bit disingenous to call that scope creep as this was known and understood in 1975 referendum (not that I was alive to see it, but videos and posters resurfaced at the time of the 2016 one).
But yet to hear a convincing reason why this is a bad thing.
0 -
Nonsense they were elected. By representatives who are in turn elected.wallace_and_gromit said:
I wasn’t claiming the Eurosceptics weren’t exhibiting blatant double standards!rick_chasey said:
Since when did the Brits dislike drunks (Churchill) or the incompetent (any Tory leader election winner this century)?wallace_and_gromit said:
The EU’s Council of Ministers has never caused too much ire amongst eurosceptics. They are all elected, albeit by different electorates.rjsterry said:
The CPTPP has a Commission made up of ministers from the member nations. That sounds fairly political and not wildly dissimilar to the EU Council.Stevo_666 said:
If its mainly economic, why all the political integration outside of the purely economic?rick_chasey said:
No it’s largely economic but economics is political and you can’t have one without the otherStevo_666 said:
Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.wallace_and_gromit said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.Stevo_666 said:
It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.wallace_and_gromit said:
So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.Stevo_666 said:
We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.wallace_and_gromit said:
It would be good if the government acknowledged this.Stevo_666 said:
There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.wallace_and_gromit said:
True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.Stevo_666 said:
It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.wallace_and_gromit said:
The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"Stevo_666 said:
Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...surrey_commuter said:
My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.rick_chasey said:On the Dover queues.
Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?
This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.
@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?
What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.
For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.
And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?
It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.
Also, if its such a good idea, why don't other trade blocs also move towards political integration in the same way as the EU?
It’s the Commission, that is appointed, and which for years was the retirement home of failed U.K. politicians that was the eurosceptics’ target. And with the rarely sober Jean-Claude juncker and the rarely competent Ursula vdl as its most recent presidents, one can easily sympathise with the eurosceptics.
Though Churchill and the Tory PMs of recent years did all have to win their seat in public elections, which probably offsets drunkenness and incompetence. Jcj was not drunk and unelected, a tough cv to sell to the eurosceptics.
Like I said I’m always perplexed how elusive people find the concept of representative democracy.0
