BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

skyblueamateur

Stevo_666 said:

skyblueamateur said:

That is utterly brilliant. So it’s the EU’s fault not the decline of the Empire and colonialism?

What source are you quoting from out of interest?

Missing the point completely. I'm showing Rick a real life historical example that goes against the gravity model.

Sound. We’ll just subjugate the rest of the world to our rule again and we’ll be sound. Good luck 👍

Stevo_666

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

On the Dover queues.

Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?

This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.

My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.

@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?

Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...

The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"

It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.

True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.

What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.

There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.

It would be good if the government acknowledged this.

For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.

And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?

We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.

pangolin

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Lol, "a source" being another telegraph opinion column.

So mount a counter argument. Do you reckon you can mange that?

It's utter fluff and nonsense.

Those wishing to push us back towards a Eurocentric trading system are harking back to the illusions of the 1950s.

So before we were in the EU? Come on you can find better than this drivel.

This is the "source" if anyone is interested. I wonder why Stevo doesn't post these links?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/brexit-britain-is-finally-breaking-free-from-the-declining/

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Lol, "a source" being another telegraph opinion column.

So mount a counter argument. Do you reckon you can mange that?

It's utter fluff and nonsense.

Those wishing to push us back towards a Eurocentric trading system are harking back to the illusions of the 1950s.

So before we were in the EU? Come on you can find better than this drivel.

This is the "source" if anyone is interested. I wonder why Stevo doesn't post these links?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/brexit-britain-is-finally-breaking-free-from-the-declining/

Where's the counter argument?

Stevo_666

I live in hope that one day Pangolin might state some views of his own rather than sniping from the sidelines...

pangolin

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Lol, "a source" being another telegraph opinion column.

So mount a counter argument. Do you reckon you can mange that?

It's utter fluff and nonsense.

Those wishing to push us back towards a Eurocentric trading system are harking back to the illusions of the 1950s.

So before we were in the EU? Come on you can find better than this drivel.

This is the "source" if anyone is interested. I wonder why Stevo doesn't post these links?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/brexit-britain-is-finally-breaking-free-from-the-declining/

Where's the counter argument?

They published it on the 1st April 😂

pangolin

Stevo_666 said:

I live in hope that one day Pangolin might state some views of his own rather than sniping from the sidelines...

Yeah odd that people are reluctant to engage with you in serious debate Stevo. Really strange.

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Lol, "a source" being another telegraph opinion column.

So mount a counter argument. Do you reckon you can mange that?

It's utter fluff and nonsense.

Those wishing to push us back towards a Eurocentric trading system are harking back to the illusions of the 1950s.

So before we were in the EU? Come on you can find better than this drivel.

This is the "source" if anyone is interested. I wonder why Stevo doesn't post these links?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/brexit-britain-is-finally-breaking-free-from-the-declining/

Where's the counter argument?

They published it on the 1st April 😂

That's a bit weak. Again

briantrumpet

I'd not bother probing the logic of a person who can write this tosh as as opening salvo - it's just a long shouty piece to try to tell people not to ask what we've lost or what we've gained by leaving the EU. Because they rely on ignorance.

A favourite question that Remainers, with an air of triumph, ask people like me is: “What single practical benefit have we gained from Brexit?” Now that we are joining the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), the world’s most dynamic economic grouping, the question is obsolete.

That's the usual party line of "Stop carrying about Brexit, it's over, and whatever you do, don't analyse what we've lost or what was promised or have gained, I see unicorns over there!"

An utter disregard of logic, as ever, with Brexit. No actual economic analysis, no recognition of the benefits that the EU gave the UK over 50 years (remember where we were in the 1970s?), and a Unicorns-R-Us puff about the 0.08% over 10 years.

It's really hard to distinguish the Telegraph from the Mail or Express these days, apart from the size of the paper.

ddraver

...and Caesar wept for there were no more forumites to sealion...

wallace_and_gromit

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

On the Dover queues.

Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?

This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.

My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.

@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?

Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...

The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"

It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.

True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.

What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.

There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.

It would be good if the government acknowledged this.

For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.

And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?

We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.

So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.

TheBigBean

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

On the Dover queues.

Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?

This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.

My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.

@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?

Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...

The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"

It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.

True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.

What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.

There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.

It would be good if the government acknowledged this.

For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.

And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?

We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.

So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.

Gene editing crops.

Stevo_666

ddraver said:

...and Caesar wept for there were no more forumites to sealion...

Welcome back, Sea Lion boy I'll ask questions as I see fit and there's nothing you can do about it, apart from posting yet more Sea Lion pics which will make no difference at all. Life's tough, eh?

Stevo_666

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

On the Dover queues.

Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?

This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.

My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.

@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?

Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...

The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"

It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.

True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.

What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.

There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.

It would be good if the government acknowledged this.

For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.

And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?

We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.

So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.

It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.

sungod

Stevo_666 said:

sungod said:

Stevo_666 said:

webboo said:

At least we have got our blue passports.

Who actually says that and means it?

brexiters, tories mps and ministers made various provably untrue claims in their praise of blue passports, are you agreeing that they were lying?

...
The return of the navy cover, first used in 1921, is being hailed as a victory by pro-Brexit MPs, who had campaigned for a return to the colour.

...

Brandon Lewis, the immigration minister, said: “Leaving the EU gives us a unique opportunity to restore our national identity and forge a new path for ourselves in the world.

“That is why I am delighted to announce that the British passport will be returning to the iconic blue and gold design after we have left the European Union in 2019.”

...

Under a system first agreed by Margaret Thatcher’s government in 1981, Britain is not legally obliged to use the same burgundy design as most other members but agreed to do so in a joint resolution of member states in the European council.

...

Speaking in April, the Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell said the burgundy EU passport had been a source of national “humiliation”.

“The restoration of our own British passport is a clear statement to the world that Britain is back. Our British identity was slowly but surely being submerged into an artificial European one that most Brits felt increasingly unhappy about,” he told Press Association.

“The humiliation of having a pink European Union passport will now soon be over and the United Kingdom nationals can once again feel pride and self-confidence in their own nationality when travelling, just as the Swiss and Americans can do.

“National identity matters and there is no better way of demonstrating this today than by bringing back this much-loved national symbol when travelling overseas.”

I don't really give a toss as that's a very small number of people - unlike you who seems to be rather angry about it. If its that bad here, why not move to the land of milk and honey across the channel?

you're clearly steamed up enough to spend so much time posting in this thread

kingstongraham

Isn't it a bit more difficult to move across the channel than it used to be?

surrey_commuter

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

Lol, "a source" being another telegraph opinion column.

So mount a counter argument. Do you reckon you can mange that?

It's utter fluff and nonsense.

Those wishing to push us back towards a Eurocentric trading system are harking back to the illusions of the 1950s.

So before we were in the EU? Come on you can find better than this drivel.

This is the "source" if anyone is interested. I wonder why Stevo doesn't post these links?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/01/brexit-britain-is-finally-breaking-free-from-the-declining/

Where's the counter argument?

the counter argument is that they quote a time of greater prosperity which relied upon enslavement and empire. This led to Britain being very prosperous but is not a repeatable strategy.

Since the end of the empire at roughly the end of WW1 Britain was in relative economic decline. This was only reversed by membership of the EU. This reversal was itself reversed by Brexit.

If trade gravity is not a thing why is every trade area (EEA, NAFTA, CPTTP) based upon proximity?

wallace_and_gromit

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

On the Dover queues.

Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?

This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.

My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.

@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?

Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...

The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"

It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.

True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.

What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.

There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.

It would be good if the government acknowledged this.

For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.

And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?

We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.

So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.

It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.

I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.

surrey_commuter

With Dover I flick between despair and amusement.

I see the ferries have already followed my suggestion of limiting coaches but the only long term solution is to accept that the amount of people who can travel through Dover is less than it was.

pblakeney

Border control.
It’s what “we” voted for.

wallace_and_gromit

surrey_commuter said:

With Dover I flick between despair and amusement.

I see the ferries have already followed my suggestion of limiting coaches but the only long term solution is to accept that the amount of people who can travel through Dover is less than it was.

Brexit benefit = coach travel to France will now be a premium product, with limited tickets fought over by the Kardashians and every self-respecting "internet influencer". Didn't see that coming, I have to say.

rick_chasey

wallace_and_gromit said:

surrey_commuter said:

With Dover I flick between despair and amusement.

I see the ferries have already followed my suggestion of limiting coaches but the only long term solution is to accept that the amount of people who can travel through Dover is less than it was.

Brexit benefit = coach travel to France will now be a premium product, with limited tickets fought over by the Kardashians and every self-respecting "internet influencer". Didn't see that coming, I have to say.

This is what Brexiters wanted isn’t it? Cappuccino drinking wannabe tw@ts who come back in the summer all tanned, having to pay more to go abroad.

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

surrey_commuter said:

With Dover I flick between despair and amusement.

I see the ferries have already followed my suggestion of limiting coaches but the only long term solution is to accept that the amount of people who can travel through Dover is less than it was.

Brexit benefit = coach travel to France will now be a premium product, with limited tickets fought over by the Kardashians and every self-respecting "internet influencer". Didn't see that coming, I have to say.

This is what Brexiters wanted isn’t it? Cappuccino drinking wannabe tw@ts who come back in the summer all tanned, having to pay more to go abroad.

I genuinely don't think they wanted this as the whole premise of Brexit was that nothing would happen on the downside, with the only changes being cake, unicorns and other upsides.

rick_chasey

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

surrey_commuter said:

With Dover I flick between despair and amusement.

I see the ferries have already followed my suggestion of limiting coaches but the only long term solution is to accept that the amount of people who can travel through Dover is less than it was.

Brexit benefit = coach travel to France will now be a premium product, with limited tickets fought over by the Kardashians and every self-respecting "internet influencer". Didn't see that coming, I have to say.

This is what Brexiters wanted isn’t it? Cappuccino drinking wannabe tw@ts who come back in the summer all tanned, having to pay more to go abroad.

I genuinely don't think they wanted this as the whole premise of Brexit was that nothing would happen on the downside, with the only changes being cake, unicorns and other upsides.

That’s not what I encountered when I was canvassing.

orraloon

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

surrey_commuter said:

With Dover I flick between despair and amusement.

I see the ferries have already followed my suggestion of limiting coaches but the only long term solution is to accept that the amount of people who can travel through Dover is less than it was.

Brexit benefit = coach travel to France will now be a premium product, with limited tickets fought over by the Kardashians and every self-respecting "internet influencer". Didn't see that coming, I have to say.

This is what Brexiters wanted isn’t it? Cappuccino drinking wannabe tw@ts who come back in the summer all tanned, having to pay more to go abroad.

I genuinely don't think they wanted this as the whole premise of Brexit was that nothing would happen on the downside, with the only changes being cake, unicorns and other upsides.

That’s not what I encountered when I was canvassing.

I do wonder just how 'happy' the Brexshit voters are now, with both a brown skinned HiRisk PM and top slot minister Cruella mouthing away.

rick_chasey

I remember one of the vibes on the around the vote was much more “f@ck you, we want to make things sh!t for you too” as much as it was sunlit uplands.

Obviously different all over the place but I don’t think anyone thought there were no downsides.

rick_chasey

Remember all that “if you’re a citizen of the world you’re a citizen of nowhere”?

Comes from the same place.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

I remember one of the vibes on the around the vote was much more “f@ck you, we want to make things sh!t for you too” as much as it was sunlit uplands.

Obviously different all over the place but I don’t think anyone thought there were no downsides.

I know people who claimed otherwise.
Now they moan about the EU screwing up Brexit.

Stevo_666

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

On the Dover queues.

Do people not remember that having to stamp all your passports and having a "hard border" slows everything down?

This was always going to be the scenario. Everyone who had done more than 3 minutes of reading could see that, as did the government, hence all the additional parking spaces for lorries all over Kent.

My memory must be playing tricks with me as I would have said that by the mid/late '80s you needed to do no more that wave a passport in the general direction of passport control. ie nobody under 40 appreciated the EU as they could not remember life before it.

@Stevo_666 how did Brexiteers think the borders were going to remain seamless for Brits?

Better ask them. Maybe the French border force should staff up a bit in busy times...

The question for Brexiteers is thus "Why put yourselves in the position of being reliant on the French for favours at busy times?"

It's no different to when they go on strike, which has happened for decades and seems to happen more often than school holidays.

True. But as a nation, we can't control the Frenchies going on strike. But as a nation, we had the right to unfettered passage across the border when the Frenchies were working, but we gave away that right, seemingly just so we could get angry more often.

What's good about increasing the number of things that can blow up and leave folk stranded in massive queues when trying to go on hols? Frenchies on strike = bad. Frenchies on strike or passport checking process overwhelmed => even badder, surely.

There were pluses and minuses to the whole thing.

It would be good if the government acknowledged this.

For interest, what do you see as the pluses and minuses? Or more accurately, the minuses and pluses, to acknowledge that the minuses, on the whole, occur a lot earlier than the pluses.

And when do you think the aggregate impact of the pluses will offset the aggregate impact of the minuses?

We are not comparing purely economic or financial pluses and minuses here. As I said upthread, a lot of people voted to leave because of non-economic considerations such as ability set our own laws in certain areas, and removing EU interference in national matters.

So where do you feel the eu interfered too much? I’m not a big fan of the ex-banana regulations etc. but that was small beer on the grand scale of things.

It's spread over a wide range of things, but the bigger concern is (or rather was) the continual scope creep.

I have a lot of sympathy with this view. Despite being a remain voter, I was never happy about the way the Commission could initiate legislation, despite not being answerable to the electorate.

Nearly all of the talk on here has focused on the economic arguments - but largely ignored or dismissed the non-economic points, which are probably the main drivers of why we voted to leave. And this is why it's relatively easy and uncontroversial for us to join a trading bloc like the CPTPP but rejoining the EU is something that may never happen.

It's also easy to forget that the EU is primarily a political project despite all the economic bells and whistles.

rjsterry

I don't think you can split the two.
Trading bloc needs rules => who sets the rules? => Politicians.

A trading bloc is a political creation. You can't take the eggs out of the cake. At least the EU has a parliament with some limited oversight of the operation of the EU. What's the body overseeing the CPTPP and who decides on any rule changes? I mean, joining wasn't even put to a vote in our parliament, nor was it in the last Conservative manifesto. So is it just at the whim of whoever is in government?