BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

ddraver

I'...take a cheque then...

(Weird come back but ok)

briantrumpet

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

rjsterry

When not if.

surrey_commuter

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

briantrumpet

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

As said before, 'world market prices' means you offshore your food supply to the lowest welfare, environmental and worker protection standards - a true race to the bottom. And your very existence depends on world markets supplying the stuff of life at all times. As recent events demonstrate, the post-WW2 certainties that you and I have never been hungry don't look so sure looking into the future.

The race to the bottom would mean little UK food production or resilience, while increasing dependence on other countries for our food supply and reliance on long-distance transport of that food, whilst fertile UK land remains out of production. Great plan.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

Once food production is state financed an export ban isn't much more. As the EU discovered there would need to be some consideration given to the NI border.

briantrumpet

We put up all sorts of 'barriers to entry' when we want to preserve particular standards in our own neck of the woods... architects, doctors, train drivers, etc. We don't allow a 'race to the bottom' for very good reason.

I'll continue to argue that in the world of food, putting up barriers to food that hasn't been produced to the standards we expect of our own farmers is entirely reasonable, both for the moral standpoint of not rewarding bad practice on a global scale, but also for the goal of food resilience, especially in uncertain times, both politically and climatically. If you allow the UK farming industry to be destroyed, even partially, it's not something you can just turn back on overnight.

masjer

Farming needs to change, full stop. Unless we adopt a far more plant based diet, we’re all screwed anyway. Growing animal feed to generate animal protein is the most destructive (rainforests Co2) and inefficient use of land and is totally unsustainable.

Even though animal agriculture currently uses 77% of agricultural land, it produces only 18% of global calories and 37% of global protein in the world’s food supply.

surrey_commuter

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

As said before, 'world market prices' means you offshore your food supply to the lowest welfare, environmental and worker protection standards - a true race to the bottom. And your very existence depends on world markets supplying the stuff of life at all times. As recent events demonstrate, the post-WW2 certainties that you and I have never been hungry don't look so sure looking into the future.

The race to the bottom would mean little UK food production or resilience, while increasing dependence on other countries for our food supply and reliance on long-distance transport of that food, whilst fertile UK land remains out of production. Great plan.

Think the other way round. If the price of wheat quadruples on world markets why would farmer Giles sell it at less?

briantrumpet

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

As said before, 'world market prices' means you offshore your food supply to the lowest welfare, environmental and worker protection standards - a true race to the bottom. And your very existence depends on world markets supplying the stuff of life at all times. As recent events demonstrate, the post-WW2 certainties that you and I have never been hungry don't look so sure looking into the future.

The race to the bottom would mean little UK food production or resilience, while increasing dependence on other countries for our food supply and reliance on long-distance transport of that food, whilst fertile UK land remains out of production. Great plan.

Think the other way round. If the price of wheat quadruples on world markets why would farmer Giles sell it at less?

Of course agricultural production shouldn't be completely divorced from commercial fluctuations. But do you get anything of what I've said? No insurance policy, no resilience, no consideration of the environment, animal welfare or worker protection? You can't see why the stuff that keeps us alive might not be best served by unfettered free markets?

If the SHTF on a global scale, you can be pretty certain that every nation will ringfence food supplies for their own people, and that will be a complete breakdown of normal market mechanism.

rick_chasey

Free market farms have generated more food than any other system by quite a long way.

Go look at Ukraine 100 years ago.

I get the want to protect farms but let’s be real - farmers being forced to improve efficiency and yield is what will save us. Not propping up inefficient farms.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

Free market farms have generated more food than any other system by quite a long way.

Go look at Ukraine 100 years ago.

I get the want to protect farms but let’s be real - farmers being forced to improve efficiency and yield is what will save us. Not propping up inefficient farms.

This is true but how do we get there?
Won't happen if there are no farmers.

Then go tell Victoria Prentis.

surrey_commuter

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

As said before, 'world market prices' means you offshore your food supply to the lowest welfare, environmental and worker protection standards - a true race to the bottom. And your very existence depends on world markets supplying the stuff of life at all times. As recent events demonstrate, the post-WW2 certainties that you and I have never been hungry don't look so sure looking into the future.

The race to the bottom would mean little UK food production or resilience, while increasing dependence on other countries for our food supply and reliance on long-distance transport of that food, whilst fertile UK land remains out of production. Great plan.

Think the other way round. If the price of wheat quadruples on world markets why would farmer Giles sell it at less?

Of course agricultural production shouldn't be completely divorced from commercial fluctuations. But do you get anything of what I've said? No insurance policy, no resilience, no consideration of the environment, animal welfare or worker protection? You can't see why the stuff that keeps us alive might not be best served by unfettered free markets?

If the SHTF on a global scale, you can be pretty certain that every nation will ringfence food supplies for their own people, and that will be a complete breakdown of normal market mechanism.

I think you have an idyllic vision of how farming should be and are backing food security arguments into your justification.

If food security is such a concern why not advocate policies that promote maximum output, whilst aggressively discouraging food exports and educating consumers to eat seasonal British food

pblakeney

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

As said before, 'world market prices' means you offshore your food supply to the lowest welfare, environmental and worker protection standards - a true race to the bottom. And your very existence depends on world markets supplying the stuff of life at all times. As recent events demonstrate, the post-WW2 certainties that you and I have never been hungry don't look so sure looking into the future.

The race to the bottom would mean little UK food production or resilience, while increasing dependence on other countries for our food supply and reliance on long-distance transport of that food, whilst fertile UK land remains out of production. Great plan.

Think the other way round. If the price of wheat quadruples on world markets why would farmer Giles sell it at less?

Of course agricultural production shouldn't be completely divorced from commercial fluctuations. But do you get anything of what I've said? No insurance policy, no resilience, no consideration of the environment, animal welfare or worker protection? You can't see why the stuff that keeps us alive might not be best served by unfettered free markets?

If the SHTF on a global scale, you can be pretty certain that every nation will ringfence food supplies for their own people, and that will be a complete breakdown of normal market mechanism.

I think you have an idyllic vision of how farming should be and are backing food security arguments into your justification.

If food security is such a concern why not advocate policies that promote maximum output, whilst aggressively discouraging food exports and educating consumers to eat seasonal British food

I'm of the opinion that this should be actively encouraged.

rick_chasey

There will always be farmers. Literally civilisation doesn't exist without them.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

There will always be farmers. Literally civilisation doesn't exist without them.

Isn't that Brian's point?

rick_chasey

Markets are good at creating good farms. You want to free market it as much as possible.

I understand there needs to be protection from unsustainable farming practices - I think humanity as a whole benefits from ruling those out.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Free market farms have generated more food than any other system by quite a long way.

Go look at Ukraine 100 years ago.

I get the want to protect farms but let’s be real - farmers being forced to improve efficiency and yield is what will save us. Not propping up inefficient farms.

Efficiency and yield can be incredibly short term as well as environmentally damaging.

kingstongraham

There's a disconnect here between "we" as a planet, and "we" as a country.

Singapore, for example, only produces 4% of the vegetables it consumes. If there is a problem with food security that means barriers go up on borders, they have an issue.

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

As said before, 'world market prices' means you offshore your food supply to the lowest welfare, environmental and worker protection standards - a true race to the bottom. And your very existence depends on world markets supplying the stuff of life at all times. As recent events demonstrate, the post-WW2 certainties that you and I have never been hungry don't look so sure looking into the future.

The race to the bottom would mean little UK food production or resilience, while increasing dependence on other countries for our food supply and reliance on long-distance transport of that food, whilst fertile UK land remains out of production. Great plan.

Think the other way round. If the price of wheat quadruples on world markets why would farmer Giles sell it at less?

Of course agricultural production shouldn't be completely divorced from commercial fluctuations. But do you get anything of what I've said? No insurance policy, no resilience, no consideration of the environment, animal welfare or worker protection? You can't see why the stuff that keeps us alive might not be best served by unfettered free markets?

If the SHTF on a global scale, you can be pretty certain that every nation will ringfence food supplies for their own people, and that will be a complete breakdown of normal market mechanism.

I think you have an idyllic vision of how farming should be and are backing food security arguments into your justification.

If food security is such a concern why not advocate policies that promote maximum output, whilst aggressively discouraging food exports and educating consumers to eat seasonal British food

Biggest issue is food waste. It is also something that I feel the EU is partly liable for with 'marketing standards' that makes it sound like perfectly good food is second rate due to irrelevant things like shape and size. It should either be classed as fit for human consumption or not.

HilaryAmin

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

surrey_commuter said:

briantrumpet said:

So, @surrey_commuter , how's the plan of just importing food if we don't bother to grow it in the UK?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/27/big-falls-in-crop-yields-across-europe-feared-due-to-heatwaves

If summers like this year's happen more often, things could get interesting.

Have you figured out how you stop the farmers from selling at world market prices?

As said before, 'world market prices' means you offshore your food supply to the lowest welfare, environmental and worker protection standards - a true race to the bottom. And your very existence depends on world markets supplying the stuff of life at all times. As recent events demonstrate, the post-WW2 certainties that you and I have never been hungry don't look so sure looking into the future.

The race to the bottom would mean little UK food production or resilience, while increasing dependence on other countries for our food supply and reliance on long-distance transport of that food, whilst fertile UK land remains out of production. Great plan.

Think the other way round. If the price of wheat quadruples on world markets why would farmer Giles sell it at less?

Of course agricultural production shouldn't be completely divorced from commercial fluctuations. But do you get anything of what I've said? No insurance policy, no resilience, no consideration of the environment, animal welfare or worker protection? You can't see why the stuff that keeps us alive might not be best served by unfettered free markets?

If the SHTF on a global scale, you can be pretty certain that every nation will ringfence food supplies for their own people, and that will be a complete breakdown of normal market mechanism.

I think you have an idyllic vision of how farming should be and are backing food security arguments into your justification.

If food security is such a concern why not advocate policies that promote maximum output, whilst aggressively discouraging food exports and educating consumers to eat seasonal British food

Biggest issue is food waste. It is also something that I feel the EU is partly liable for with 'marketing standards' that makes it sound like perfectly good food is second rate due to irrelevant things like shape and size. It should either be classed as fit for human consumption or not.

"You feel.."!

That sounds like Borisy-Bollox to me

Supermarkets in the UK encourage food waste. My mate is a supermarket manager and says they chuck out skip-loads of perfectly good food.

In some towns you can watch the hard up waiting outside supermarkets knowing that they will be invited in and offered food, nearly time-expired, for next to nothing or free.

briantrumpet

There are plenty of good points above.

But I do think food production and food security should be partially insulated from the vagaries of the unfettered free market, for all the points I've repeatedly made above. The challenge is to harness the creativity and entrepreneurship of farmers in meeting challenges without trashing the world bit by bit and not being held to ransom when the world burns.

Another thought: is it morally acceptable to stop farming large chunks of our bit of the world, and then just use our wealth to buy up food from other parts of the world, when elsewhere there might be hunger & starvation? Just spit-balling here, and ready to be shot down.

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

Another thought: is it morally acceptable to stop farming large chunks of our bit of the world, and then just use our wealth to buy up food from other parts of the world, when elsewhere there might be hunger & starvation? Just spit-balling here, and ready to be shot down.

The same logic that applies to everyone not individually farming their own food applies globally too, right?

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

Another thought: is it morally acceptable to stop farming large chunks of our bit of the world, and then just use our wealth to buy up food from other parts of the world, when elsewhere there might be hunger & starvation? Just spit-balling here, and ready to be shot down.

The same logic that applies to everyone not individually farming their own food applies globally too, right?

Probably, though there are lots of examples where food production is shared within communities. Where I am at the moment, it was one reason why communism, in its non-Rusky form, got a strong foothold, as the communist movement in France was involved in encouraging and facilitating communal local food production.

rick_chasey

Communist farms are infamously inefficient. Like, really really really inefficient.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Communist farms are infamously inefficient. Like, really really really inefficient.

Yes, of course, in the Rusky mould, but I think in the French case the communism was more an umbrella/mindset which encouraged co-operation/co-operatives. All tied up with the region's radicalism, Protestantism, and the Resistance. Interesting history.

Dorset_Boy

More a collective farm, so rather than each grow a small amount, they would pool resources to share the growth of larger amounts.

rick_chasey

Dorset_Boy said:

More a collective farm, so rather than each grow a small amount, they would pool resources to share the growth of larger amounts.

So once you're growing enough for your lot, what's the incentive to grow more?

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

More a collective farm, so rather than each grow a small amount, they would pool resources to share the growth of larger amounts.

So once you're growing enough for your lot, what's the incentive to grow more?

Sales, barter, seeds, animal feed....

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

More a collective farm, so rather than each grow a small amount, they would pool resources to share the growth of larger amounts.

So once you're growing enough for your lot, what's the incentive to grow more?

Sales, barter, seeds, animal feed....

Right, but if there are limits on where you can sell your food to?

There's a reason the "kulaks" had more food than the collectivist farmers, and so why they were so reviled by communists. They were more productive and farmed more food!