BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

TheBigBean

GBP has done better than EUR. Both have dropped against USD. Too much dithering with rate increases hasn't helped the EUR.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

For clarity it is the lowest real growth in 2023. Real growth over 2022/3 is similar to other countries. Nominal growth in 2023 is also high. So all of it boils down to high inflation in 2023 and a better 2022 than other countries.

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

What is the silence? Every industry body i know is wanging on about it.

The City is one of the few places that is going gangbusters but that is because we're just cresting another boom and it's in for a rough couple of years.

try looking in the press for industry bodies, or CEOs mentioning the impact of Brexit

That is because we are in a polarised state where criticising the govt on the economy is now considered to be a political statement.

Doubly so if it is Brexit related.

Welcome to populism where criticism is considered partisan by definition.

Look at the trade press for any industry and it's all they're talking about.

briantrumpet

Project Fear...

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1534476095784947714

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

Project Fear...

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1534476095784947714

That's a pretty embarrassing error for a journalist.

Stevo_666

TheBigBean said:

GBP has done better than EUR. Both have dropped against USD. Too much dithering with rate increases hasn't helped the EUR.

And the Yen has slumped against GBP, EUR and USD recently.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

When I bang on about this I get called a doom monger and a Britain hater, so curious to see how you get on with this line of argument.

now some of these are interconnected but it is getting interesting.

I would love to know how they are enforcing the silence as that would tell us when it is likely to break.

Not sure who you think is being silent?

wallace_and_gromit

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

When I bang on about this I get called a doom monger and a Britain hater, so curious to see how you get on with this line of argument.

now some of these are interconnected but it is getting interesting.

I would love to know how they are enforcing the silence as that would tell us when it is likely to break.

Not sure who you think is being silent?

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

davebradswmb

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

In fact for the company I work for things are worse still. Our only major export market in the EU is Ireland and we have lost the majority of this business because of the high cost of exporting. We have a major competitor in Ireland who have mopped up most of that business. We have always been able to out-compete this competitor in the UK but now we are seeing them being much more aggressive in our home market. We don't know for sure, but it wouldn't stretch the imagination to think that they are using their sudden strength in their home market to fund expansion into the UK while they funnel all their product through Northern Ireland to avoid the kinds of costs that we have to deal with when exporting to Ireland.

The oven ready Brexit deal is still not finished, not by a long chalk and as long as these gaping holes are left then British industry will be at a significant disadvantage.

wallace_and_gromit

davebradswmb said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

True. And I guess the Brexit angle for us wasn't huge. But either way, directing one's energies to productive use minimises the losses, whereas complaining just helps the losses get bigger.

No-one at our place has a good thing to say about Brexit, that's for sure!

kingstongraham

wallace_and_gromit said:

davebradswmb said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

True. And I guess the Brexit angle for us wasn't huge. But either way, directing one's energies to productive use minimises the losses, whereas complaining just helps the losses get bigger.

No-one at our place has a good thing to say about Brexit, that's for sure!

If anything to close the gaps is dismissed as "can't do that, it's undoing Brexit", then nothing is going to change.

I wish the Brexiteers would accept that Brexit is done, it's now about making the best out of what they've done.

From a political standpoint, pointing out that they've made bad decisions is surely entirely justified. It doesn't stop anyone getting on with things, but hopefully makes it less likely they'll be around to make more of them in the future.

Stevo_666

wallace_and_gromit said:

davebradswmb said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

But either way, directing one's energies to productive use minimises the losses, whereas complaining just helps the losses get bigger.

I've made this point several times, but it seems this is the thread where people just want to keep on complaining.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

davebradswmb said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

But either way, directing one's energies to productive use minimises the losses, whereas complaining just helps the losses get bigger.

I've made this point several times, but it seems this is the thread where people just want to keep on complaining.

Mainly because we've had 10 years of largely f*cking stupid leadership and decision making - certainly the last 5.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

davebradswmb said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

But either way, directing one's energies to productive use minimises the losses, whereas complaining just helps the losses get bigger.

I've made this point several times, but it seems this is the thread where people just want to keep on complaining.

Mainly because we've had 10 years of largely f*cking stupid leadership and decision making - certainly the last 5.

To what end?

As mentioned above, much more productive to put our efforts into making the best of the current situation.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

davebradswmb said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

But either way, directing one's energies to productive use minimises the losses, whereas complaining just helps the losses get bigger.

I've made this point several times, but it seems this is the thread where people just want to keep on complaining.

Mainly because we've had 10 years of largely f*cking stupid leadership and decision making - certainly the last 5.

To what end?

As mentioned above, much more productive to put our efforts into making the best of the current situation.

Well, taking the slightly longer-term view, 'making the best of where we're at' might involve persuading those who cling to the notion that leaving the Single Market and Customs Union was a cracking idea that they were mistaken. Then we might be able to make pragmatic decisions on the political direction to take, and whether we might be better off not pretending we can alienate our nearest neighbours and still prosper. If all we are concerned about is making the best of a bad job in our own little worlds, then we might miss the bigger picture.

rjsterry

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

When I bang on about this I get called a doom monger and a Britain hater, so curious to see how you get on with this line of argument.

now some of these are interconnected but it is getting interesting.

I would love to know how they are enforcing the silence as that would tell us when it is likely to break.

Not sure who you think is being silent?

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Of course. People are getting on because what else is there? But if asked we, like you I imagine , will not pretend that everything is fine.

pangolin

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

davebradswmb said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Our business has been adversely affected by Brexit, but it is what it is. We could waste energy complaining about it or expend that energy adapting to the new "lie of the land". We obviously go for the latter approach. But tbh, constant adaptation is something you have to be good at as a small outfit as otherwise you tend to become an ex-business pdq.

Great attitude, but it doesn't really address the problem that you have lost business as a result of Brexit.

But either way, directing one's energies to productive use minimises the losses, whereas complaining just helps the losses get bigger.

I've made this point several times, but it seems this is the thread where people just want to keep on complaining.

Mainly because we've had 10 years of largely f*cking stupid leadership and decision making - certainly the last 5.

To what end?

As mentioned above, much more productive to put our efforts into making the best of the current situation.

Well, taking the slightly longer-term view, 'making the best of where we're at' might involve persuading those who cling to the notion that leaving the Single Market and Customs Union was a cracking idea that they were mistaken. Then we might be able to make pragmatic decisions on the political direction to take, and whether we might be better off not pretending we can alienate our nearest neighbours and still prosper. If all we are concerned about is making the best of a bad job in our own little worlds, then we might miss the bigger picture.

If we are going to take a long term view then maybe we need to wait longer to see how things go. Then after that a considered decision could be made. Given we had a 47 year stunt to try and get comfortable in the EU, maybe we look again somewhere around 2067?

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

Are we talking Rees-Smug, 50 years' patience? How long are we supposed to wait while staring at this decomposing pile of poo and hoping it'll turn into Brexit gold? Are there any economic figures you can point us to to give us something to reward the patience we should be showing?

As Johnson found out with covid, being optimistic and too late making in making decisions doesn't always turn out well. I admire your ability to stay chipper while everyone else in the house is telling you that they can smell burning (apologies for my abrupt change of metaphor), but, in defence of pessimism, things have turned out just about as bad as the Brexit pessimists suggested. It's going to be more than just the toast that has been burnt, while you pop your head out of the window and tell us how lovely the outside air smells, and to "see how things go".

skyblueamateur

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

Do you agree then that the DUP should give it 50 years then and stop their moaning?

I have been pragmatic through all of this and like most SME’s have got our heads down and got on with things.

As some of our parts come from the Far East we have been essentially trading with the EU on WTO terms. There is no ‘deal’. There will be a huge number of SME’s similar to ourselves.

As mentioned on here previously we have seen the biggest increase in paperwork, red tape and beaurocracy in generations if not ever.

Coupled with a trebling in costs of shipping due to duty, customs clearance etc it has been a tough, tough couple of years.

Johnson wasn’t wrong when he said ‘f*ck business’ but we get on with things.

Forgive me if I’m incredulous though that they will then ride rough shod over their ‘deal’ for the sake of the DUP. I wish they’d stop moaning and just get on with things. Would you not agree?

Or is it okay to renegotiate certain parts of the deal but anything that would help business is off the table for 50 years?

skyblueamateur

Someone needs to tell the remoaners at the Express to crack on with things. Brexit dominates their homepage and they still don't think it's done .

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1623246/brexit-news-Jacob-Rees-mogg-poisoned-chalice-brexit-not-done

surrey_commuter

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

Do you agree then that the DUP should give it 50 years then and stop their moaning?

I have been pragmatic through all of this and like most SME’s have got our heads down and got on with things.

As some of our parts come from the Far East we have been essentially trading with the EU on WTO terms. There is no ‘deal’. There will be a huge number of SME’s similar to ourselves.

As mentioned on here previously we have seen the biggest increase in paperwork, red tape and beaurocracy in generations if not ever.

Coupled with a trebling in costs of shipping due to duty, customs clearance etc it has been a tough, tough couple of years.

Johnson wasn’t wrong when he said ‘f*ck business’ but we get on with things.

Forgive me if I’m incredulous though that they will then ride rough shod over their ‘deal’ for the sake of the DUP. I wish they’d stop moaning and just get on with things. Would you not agree?

Or is it okay to renegotiate certain parts of the deal but anything that would help business is off the table for 50 years?

If we separate the Brexit leadership from the electorate then it was about politics/sovereignty and nothing to do with business/economics. The subject has dominated their entire adult lives so they are not about to let it go.

The brexit backer in the street does not understand business/economics so does not care. What they do care about is minor inconveniences in life and it is these longer queues and costs that will to them far outweigh sovereignty. As these stack up the pressure will build for a more pragmatic relationship with the EU and business/economics will gain.

The loss of hundreds of billions of pounds will be far outweighed by a long queue at Dover and paying £200 to take your dog with you.

briantrumpet

surrey_commuter said:

The loss of hundreds of billions of pounds will be far outweighed by a long queue at Dover and paying £200 to take your dog with you.

Not forgetting roaming charges... expect the sob stories about 'unexpected' massive bills after a week in Brittany.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

Do you agree then that the DUP should give it 50 years then and stop their moaning?

I have been pragmatic through all of this and like most SME’s have got our heads down and got on with things.

As some of our parts come from the Far East we have been essentially trading with the EU on WTO terms. There is no ‘deal’. There will be a huge number of SME’s similar to ourselves.

As mentioned on here previously we have seen the biggest increase in paperwork, red tape and beaurocracy in generations if not ever.

Coupled with a trebling in costs of shipping due to duty, customs clearance etc it has been a tough, tough couple of years.

Johnson wasn’t wrong when he said ‘f*ck business’ but we get on with things.

Forgive me if I’m incredulous though that they will then ride rough shod over their ‘deal’ for the sake of the DUP. I wish they’d stop moaning and just get on with things. Would you not agree?

Or is it okay to renegotiate certain parts of the deal but anything that would help business is off the table for 50 years?

If we separate the Brexit leadership from the electorate then it was about politics/sovereignty and nothing to do with business/economics. The subject has dominated their entire adult lives so they are not about to let it go.

The brexit backer in the street does not understand business/economics so does not care. What they do care about is minor inconveniences in life and it is these longer queues and costs that will to them far outweigh sovereignty. As these stack up the pressure will build for a more pragmatic relationship with the EU and business/economics will gain.

The loss of hundreds of billions of pounds will be far outweighed by a long queue at Dover and paying £200 to take your dog with you.

An increasing number of more thoughtful prominent Brexit supporters are coming out and saying that while they still support the principle of leaving, the way in which we have left is a bit sh*t and we should be working on incrementally improving the deal rather than frotting the hardcore Europhobes.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

Do you agree then that the DUP should give it 50 years then and stop their moaning?

I have been pragmatic through all of this and like most SME’s have got our heads down and got on with things.

As some of our parts come from the Far East we have been essentially trading with the EU on WTO terms. There is no ‘deal’. There will be a huge number of SME’s similar to ourselves.

As mentioned on here previously we have seen the biggest increase in paperwork, red tape and beaurocracy in generations if not ever.

Coupled with a trebling in costs of shipping due to duty, customs clearance etc it has been a tough, tough couple of years.

Johnson wasn’t wrong when he said ‘f*ck business’ but we get on with things.

Forgive me if I’m incredulous though that they will then ride rough shod over their ‘deal’ for the sake of the DUP. I wish they’d stop moaning and just get on with things. Would you not agree?

Or is it okay to renegotiate certain parts of the deal but anything that would help business is off the table for 50 years?

If we separate the Brexit leadership from the electorate then it was about politics/sovereignty and nothing to do with business/economics. The subject has dominated their entire adult lives so they are not about to let it go.

The brexit backer in the street does not understand business/economics so does not care. What they do care about is minor inconveniences in life and it is these longer queues and costs that will to them far outweigh sovereignty. As these stack up the pressure will build for a more pragmatic relationship with the EU and business/economics will gain.

The loss of hundreds of billions of pounds will be far outweighed by a long queue at Dover and paying £200 to take your dog with you.

An increasing number of more thoughtful prominent Brexit supporters are coming out and saying that while they still support the principle of leaving, the way in which we have left is a bit sh*t and we should be working on incrementally improving the deal rather than frotting the hardcore Europhobes.

They just annoy me even more, there was nothing the EU was stopping us from doing that would outweigh the costs of leaving the SM/CU. If you gave more than two sh1ts about the economy then the obvious route out was the Norway option with a view to diverging as the opportunities presented themselves.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

skyblueamateur said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

Do you agree then that the DUP should give it 50 years then and stop their moaning?

I have been pragmatic through all of this and like most SME’s have got our heads down and got on with things.

As some of our parts come from the Far East we have been essentially trading with the EU on WTO terms. There is no ‘deal’. There will be a huge number of SME’s similar to ourselves.

As mentioned on here previously we have seen the biggest increase in paperwork, red tape and beaurocracy in generations if not ever.

Coupled with a trebling in costs of shipping due to duty, customs clearance etc it has been a tough, tough couple of years.

Johnson wasn’t wrong when he said ‘f*ck business’ but we get on with things.

Forgive me if I’m incredulous though that they will then ride rough shod over their ‘deal’ for the sake of the DUP. I wish they’d stop moaning and just get on with things. Would you not agree?

Or is it okay to renegotiate certain parts of the deal but anything that would help business is off the table for 50 years?

If we separate the Brexit leadership from the electorate then it was about politics/sovereignty and nothing to do with business/economics. The subject has dominated their entire adult lives so they are not about to let it go.

The brexit backer in the street does not understand business/economics so does not care. What they do care about is minor inconveniences in life and it is these longer queues and costs that will to them far outweigh sovereignty. As these stack up the pressure will build for a more pragmatic relationship with the EU and business/economics will gain.

The loss of hundreds of billions of pounds will be far outweighed by a long queue at Dover and paying £200 to take your dog with you.

An increasing number of more thoughtful prominent Brexit supporters are coming out and saying that while they still support the principle of leaving, the way in which we have left is a bit sh*t and we should be working on incrementally improving the deal rather than frotting the hardcore Europhobes.

They just annoy me even more, there was nothing the EU was stopping us from doing that would outweigh the costs of leaving the SM/CU. If you gave more than two sh1ts about the economy then the obvious route out was the Norway option with a view to diverging as the opportunities presented themselves.

I agree, but I think it's significant that strongly pro Brexit people are now coming out and saying maybe we didn't get the optimal deal and should try to improve on it, rather than just the usual tribal bollox.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

pangolin said:

The notion that you can either make the best of your situation OR acknowledge that the situation is not great, never both, is such a boring strawman.

Of course you can do both, but there isn't much evidence of that on here.

I suspect you'd find that all the posters on here are doing the best with the situations they are in, but you really shouldn't ber surprised that they are going to make observations about the larger political picture and what pile of poo Brexit has turned out to be, and how the government might mitigate the poo. If you can't admit the underlying problem, you're never going to deal with it, you'll just tinker with the symptoms... which, of course, is better than doing nothing at all.

If you have a crystal ball then fine: otherwise, be patient and see how things go. Not much choice in reality...

Are we talking Rees-Smug, 50 years' patience? How long are we supposed to wait while staring at this decomposing pile of poo and hoping it'll turn into Brexit gold? Are there any economic figures you can point us to to give us something to reward the patience we should be showing?

As Johnson found out with covid, being optimistic and too late making in making decisions doesn't always turn out well. I admire your ability to stay chipper while everyone else in the house is telling you that they can smell burning (apologies for my abrupt change of metaphor), but, in defence of pessimism, things have turned out just about as bad as the Brexit pessimists suggested. It's going to be more than just the toast that has been burnt, while you pop your head out of the window and tell us how lovely the outside air smells, and to "see how things go".

Nope, it was my suggestion based on what time frame a long term view might be. I didn't know that Rees-Mogg had mentioned something similar.

I prefer to take the old cliched view of prepare for the worst and hope for the best - which served our business quite well in the Brexit planning as the worst definitely did not transpire for us although we prepared for it.

As for things being bad, well the are are a lot of non-Brexit related 'headwinds' around at present - Russia/Ukraine, global supply chains, previously covid etc, but I know that you and some others will always try to pin problems on Brexit if there is half a chance.