BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

morstar

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

TheBigBean said:

monkimark said:

I doubt anyone chooses their phone/tablet/laptop based on the type of charger it has but it would actually be very helpful to be able to just borrow a phone/laptop charger off someone and know it would work.

I'm surprised there isn't more standardisation for laptop chargers, there seem to be hundreds of shapes and sizes - is there any benefit for anyone apart from replacement charger manufacturers?

Laptops are now mostly USB-C, so you can use another laptop one. You can't use a mobile phone charger on a laptop because it isn't powerful enough. In theory, you should be able to charge your mobile with your laptop charger, but as we all know, in theory practice is the same as theory, but in practice it is not.

A big part of the legislation is about reducing waste.

They outlined this intention years ago. Remove the need for chargers to be produced for everything. You can only do that with standardisation.

Tackling the environment can only happen with legislation, the free market will happily burn coal.

You can charge phones with laptop chargers in practice, not just theoretically.

It depends on a whole host of other things such as the cable. The problem is that for the user there is no obvious difference between cables and chargers, yet the performance varies a lot.

Fair point and interesting stats.

Doesn’t the standardisation enable specialist charger and cable makers to do what the free market does and sell good products whilst improving those performances.

Apple hasn’t innovated in this area. They did innovate in order to build a wall around their soon to be stagnant offering. Nobody else is bothered as they are all using or moving towards the defacto standard of USB-C

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

If the standard is legislated for, doesn't that remove the incentive to innovate and come up with a better solution?

Depends how you craft the legislation but that is a downside yes

Changing the standard would be well nigh impossible so nobody would devote resources to looking to improve what already existed.

All the people who would rather the Govt decide rather than market forces must never have considered this decision will be made by some vacuous cretin like JRM or Mad Nad.

The Building Regs, which covers not only electrical safety, but drainage, ventilation, fire safety, prevention of falls, etc, etc. is covered by legislation and is regularly updated. Even under the current bunch of idiots.

Jezyboy

So all the chargers and cables will work but there's different performance between them.

So there is development work in improving charger performance, its just that you'll be able to use someone else's charger when caught short.

This seems like the best of both worlds no?

rick_chasey

https://twitter.com/adriandoran2/status/1534511472205766656?s=21&t=sPwq56Cu-COMRLW4gHkJxw

sungod

TheBigBean said:

sungod said:

usb-c makes a lot more sense than the brexiteers' proposals to force imperial measures on us, that's real idiocy

There is a consultation about whether to change any of the laws around imperial measurements. I really doubt that will end in forced imperial measurements not least because the consultation notes that many people don't understand them. It may end up being possible for a pub to legally sell pints of coke, shandy etc. but no one will notice the change.

a consultation about an act of idiocy

pblakeney

"Is this a good idea?"
"No."
"Next order of business."
Consultation over. Fee - £750,000.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

https://twitter.com/adriandoran2/status/1534511472205766656?s=21&t=sPwq56Cu-COMRLW4gHkJxw

I am starting to understand why they changed their minds about the protocol, if they don’t undo it soon the sane people in NI will refuse.

sungod

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

TheBigBean said:

monkimark said:

I doubt anyone chooses their phone/tablet/laptop based on the type of charger it has but it would actually be very helpful to be able to just borrow a phone/laptop charger off someone and know it would work.

I'm surprised there isn't more standardisation for laptop chargers, there seem to be hundreds of shapes and sizes - is there any benefit for anyone apart from replacement charger manufacturers?

Laptops are now mostly USB-C, so you can use another laptop one. You can't use a mobile phone charger on a laptop because it isn't powerful enough. In theory, you should be able to charge your mobile with your laptop charger, but as we all know, in theory practice is the same as theory, but in practice it is not.

A big part of the legislation is about reducing waste.

They outlined this intention years ago. Remove the need for chargers to be produced for everything. You can only do that with standardisation.

Tackling the environment can only happen with legislation, the free market will happily burn coal.

You can charge phones with laptop chargers in practice, not just theoretically.

It depends on a whole host of other things such as the cable. The problem is that for the user there is no obvious difference between cables and chargers, yet the performance varies a lot.

no, it simply reflects the fact that usb c standard permits a range of capabilities - just as uk mains leads can have different current ratings, and be two or three core - there's no need for every usb c device/cable to be able to deliver the maximum power

usb c has evolved over time, same physical connector, different capabilities, it'll continue to evolve, i.e. innovation has continued, being 'limited' to usb c has not stopped innovation, new devices use the new capabilities, old ones carry on working as before

ddraver

Blimey, that blew up like a bad Lightning port...

TheBigBean

Jezyboy said:

So all the chargers and cables will work but there's different performance between them.

So there is development work in improving charger performance, its just that you'll be able to use someone else's charger when caught short.

This seems like the best of both worlds no?

Not all of them. As I said, my phone won't charge with my laptop cable. I suspect because its charging protocol is too old.

Also, the point of the legislation is that phone manufacturers don't supply chargers with phones thereby cutting down on waste. It skips over the issue that the lifespan of a cable is often less than a phone, but the point is that if consumers need Samsung cables to work best with Samsung phones, then it really isn't much different to a proprietary connection.

They could legislate that the description "USB-C cable" should be provided with more detail. That sounds like it would be helpful for the consumer.

TheBigBean

sungod said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

TheBigBean said:

monkimark said:

I doubt anyone chooses their phone/tablet/laptop based on the type of charger it has but it would actually be very helpful to be able to just borrow a phone/laptop charger off someone and know it would work.

I'm surprised there isn't more standardisation for laptop chargers, there seem to be hundreds of shapes and sizes - is there any benefit for anyone apart from replacement charger manufacturers?

Laptops are now mostly USB-C, so you can use another laptop one. You can't use a mobile phone charger on a laptop because it isn't powerful enough. In theory, you should be able to charge your mobile with your laptop charger, but as we all know, in theory practice is the same as theory, but in practice it is not.

A big part of the legislation is about reducing waste.

They outlined this intention years ago. Remove the need for chargers to be produced for everything. You can only do that with standardisation.

Tackling the environment can only happen with legislation, the free market will happily burn coal.

You can charge phones with laptop chargers in practice, not just theoretically.

It depends on a whole host of other things such as the cable. The problem is that for the user there is no obvious difference between cables and chargers, yet the performance varies a lot.

no, it simply reflects the fact that usb c standard permits a range of capabilities - just as uk mains leads can have different current ratings, and be two or three core - there's no need for every usb c device/cable to be able to deliver the maximum power

usb c has evolved over time, same physical connector, different capabilities, it'll continue to evolve, i.e. innovation has continued, being 'limited' to usb c has not stopped innovation, new devices use the new capabilities, old ones carry on working as before

If that was the case a OnePlus cable with a Hauwei 40W charger would produce different results.

rick_chasey

..

TheBigBean

I know this is the thread for things mostly unrelated to Brexit, but I can't see a tenuous link with that and Brexit.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

Jezyboy said:

So all the chargers and cables will work but there's different performance between them.

So there is development work in improving charger performance, its just that you'll be able to use someone else's charger when caught short.

This seems like the best of both worlds no?

Not all of them. As I said, my phone won't charge with my laptop cable. I suspect because its charging protocol is too old.

Also, the point of the legislation is that phone manufacturers don't supply chargers with phones thereby cutting down on waste. It skips over the issue that the lifespan of a cable is often less than a phone, but the point is that if consumers need Samsung cables to work best with Samsung phones, then it really isn't much different to a proprietary connection.

They could legislate that the description "USB-C cable" should be provided with more detail. That sounds like it would be helpful for the consumer.

I've just remembered: you're the guy who wants mobile phones to have physical buttons rather than touchscreens. I think you are destined to be annoyed by electronic devices.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

sungod said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

TheBigBean said:

monkimark said:

I doubt anyone chooses their phone/tablet/laptop based on the type of charger it has but it would actually be very helpful to be able to just borrow a phone/laptop charger off someone and know it would work.

I'm surprised there isn't more standardisation for laptop chargers, there seem to be hundreds of shapes and sizes - is there any benefit for anyone apart from replacement charger manufacturers?

Laptops are now mostly USB-C, so you can use another laptop one. You can't use a mobile phone charger on a laptop because it isn't powerful enough. In theory, you should be able to charge your mobile with your laptop charger, but as we all know, in theory practice is the same as theory, but in practice it is not.

A big part of the legislation is about reducing waste.

They outlined this intention years ago. Remove the need for chargers to be produced for everything. You can only do that with standardisation.

Tackling the environment can only happen with legislation, the free market will happily burn coal.

You can charge phones with laptop chargers in practice, not just theoretically.

It depends on a whole host of other things such as the cable. The problem is that for the user there is no obvious difference between cables and chargers, yet the performance varies a lot.

no, it simply reflects the fact that usb c standard permits a range of capabilities - just as uk mains leads can have different current ratings, and be two or three core - there's no need for every usb c device/cable to be able to deliver the maximum power

usb c has evolved over time, same physical connector, different capabilities, it'll continue to evolve, i.e. innovation has continued, being 'limited' to usb c has not stopped innovation, new devices use the new capabilities, old ones carry on working as before

If that was the case a OnePlus cable with a Hauwei 40W charger would produce different results.

It probably does. You would need to control for battery capacity and condition. The cheapo IKEA multi charger is slower than my Sony one with the same cable.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

sungod said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

TheBigBean said:

monkimark said:

I doubt anyone chooses their phone/tablet/laptop based on the type of charger it has but it would actually be very helpful to be able to just borrow a phone/laptop charger off someone and know it would work.

I'm surprised there isn't more standardisation for laptop chargers, there seem to be hundreds of shapes and sizes - is there any benefit for anyone apart from replacement charger manufacturers?

Laptops are now mostly USB-C, so you can use another laptop one. You can't use a mobile phone charger on a laptop because it isn't powerful enough. In theory, you should be able to charge your mobile with your laptop charger, but as we all know, in theory practice is the same as theory, but in practice it is not.

A big part of the legislation is about reducing waste.

They outlined this intention years ago. Remove the need for chargers to be produced for everything. You can only do that with standardisation.

Tackling the environment can only happen with legislation, the free market will happily burn coal.

You can charge phones with laptop chargers in practice, not just theoretically.

It depends on a whole host of other things such as the cable. The problem is that for the user there is no obvious difference between cables and chargers, yet the performance varies a lot.

no, it simply reflects the fact that usb c standard permits a range of capabilities - just as uk mains leads can have different current ratings, and be two or three core - there's no need for every usb c device/cable to be able to deliver the maximum power

usb c has evolved over time, same physical connector, different capabilities, it'll continue to evolve, i.e. innovation has continued, being 'limited' to usb c has not stopped innovation, new devices use the new capabilities, old ones carry on working as before

If that was the case a OnePlus cable with a Hauwei 40W charger would produce different results.

It probably does. You would need to control for battery capacity and condition. The cheapo IKEA multi charger is slower than my Sony one with the same cable.

I showed a graph evidencing that it doesn't...

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

Jezyboy said:

So all the chargers and cables will work but there's different performance between them.

So there is development work in improving charger performance, its just that you'll be able to use someone else's charger when caught short.

This seems like the best of both worlds no?

Not all of them. As I said, my phone won't charge with my laptop cable. I suspect because its charging protocol is too old.

Also, the point of the legislation is that phone manufacturers don't supply chargers with phones thereby cutting down on waste. It skips over the issue that the lifespan of a cable is often less than a phone, but the point is that if consumers need Samsung cables to work best with Samsung phones, then it really isn't much different to a proprietary connection.

They could legislate that the description "USB-C cable" should be provided with more detail. That sounds like it would be helpful for the consumer.

I've just remembered: you're the guy who wants mobile phones to have physical buttons rather than touchscreens. I think you are destined to be annoyed by electronic devices.

Yes, I like keys. Not sure that is relevant though.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

I know this is the thread for things mostly unrelated to Brexit, but I can't see a tenuous link with that and Brexit.

Wrong thread soz

HilaryAmin

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

If the standard is legislated for, doesn't that remove the incentive to innovate and come up with a better solution?

Depends how you craft the legislation but that is a downside yes

Changing the standard would be well nigh impossible so nobody would devote resources to looking to improve what already existed.

All the people who would rather the Govt decide rather than market forces must never have considered this decision will be made by some vacuous cretin like JRM or Mad Nad.

The Building Regs, which covers not only electrical safety, but drainage, ventilation, fire safety, prevention of falls, etc, etc. is covered by legislation and is regularly updated. Even under the current bunch of idiots.

In the old days governments were happy to appoint experts to decide safety regulations, e.g. the IEE.

Sadly these days everything has become politicised and politicians dare not trust experts as demonstrated by the appointment of the Prime Minister who is only an expert in a field of bullshit, lies and personal ambition.

Obviously we need regulations and cannot leave it to individual commercial interests as demonstrated by the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

rjsterry

HilaryAmin said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

If the standard is legislated for, doesn't that remove the incentive to innovate and come up with a better solution?

Depends how you craft the legislation but that is a downside yes

Changing the standard would be well nigh impossible so nobody would devote resources to looking to improve what already existed.

All the people who would rather the Govt decide rather than market forces must never have considered this decision will be made by some vacuous cretin like JRM or Mad Nad.

The Building Regs, which covers not only electrical safety, but drainage, ventilation, fire safety, prevention of falls, etc, etc. is covered by legislation and is regularly updated. Even under the current bunch of idiots.

In the old days governments were happy to appoint experts to decide safety regulations, e.g. the IEE.

Sadly these days everything has become politicised and politicians dare not trust experts as demonstrated by the appointment of the Prime Minister who is only an expert in a field of bullshit, lies and personal ambition.

Obviously we need regulations and cannot leave it to individual commercial interests as demonstrated by the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

They still do rely on experts including the IEE and British Standards. The Building Regulations aren't generally politicised and seem to generally cope well with developing technology. My point was that legislating for standards does not restrict innovation.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

Jezyboy said:

So all the chargers and cables will work but there's different performance between them.

So there is development work in improving charger performance, its just that you'll be able to use someone else's charger when caught short.

This seems like the best of both worlds no?

Not all of them. As I said, my phone won't charge with my laptop cable. I suspect because its charging protocol is too old.

Also, the point of the legislation is that phone manufacturers don't supply chargers with phones thereby cutting down on waste. It skips over the issue that the lifespan of a cable is often less than a phone, but the point is that if consumers need Samsung cables to work best with Samsung phones, then it really isn't much different to a proprietary connection.

They could legislate that the description "USB-C cable" should be provided with more detail. That sounds like it would be helpful for the consumer.

I've just remembered: you're the guy who wants mobile phones to have physical buttons rather than touchscreens. I think you are destined to be annoyed by electronic devices.

Yes, I like keys. Not sure that is relevant though.

I think you are something of an outlier when it comes to your views on electronic devices.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

Jezyboy said:

So all the chargers and cables will work but there's different performance between them.

So there is development work in improving charger performance, its just that you'll be able to use someone else's charger when caught short.

This seems like the best of both worlds no?

Not all of them. As I said, my phone won't charge with my laptop cable. I suspect because its charging protocol is too old.

Also, the point of the legislation is that phone manufacturers don't supply chargers with phones thereby cutting down on waste. It skips over the issue that the lifespan of a cable is often less than a phone, but the point is that if consumers need Samsung cables to work best with Samsung phones, then it really isn't much different to a proprietary connection.

They could legislate that the description "USB-C cable" should be provided with more detail. That sounds like it would be helpful for the consumer.

I've just remembered: you're the guy who wants mobile phones to have physical buttons rather than touchscreens. I think you are destined to be annoyed by electronic devices.

Yes, I like keys. Not sure that is relevant though.

I think you are something of an outlier when it comes to your views on electronic devices.

"On electronic devices" is probably surplus to requirements there.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

sungod said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

TheBigBean said:

monkimark said:

I doubt anyone chooses their phone/tablet/laptop based on the type of charger it has but it would actually be very helpful to be able to just borrow a phone/laptop charger off someone and know it would work.

I'm surprised there isn't more standardisation for laptop chargers, there seem to be hundreds of shapes and sizes - is there any benefit for anyone apart from replacement charger manufacturers?

Laptops are now mostly USB-C, so you can use another laptop one. You can't use a mobile phone charger on a laptop because it isn't powerful enough. In theory, you should be able to charge your mobile with your laptop charger, but as we all know, in theory practice is the same as theory, but in practice it is not.

A big part of the legislation is about reducing waste.

They outlined this intention years ago. Remove the need for chargers to be produced for everything. You can only do that with standardisation.

Tackling the environment can only happen with legislation, the free market will happily burn coal.

You can charge phones with laptop chargers in practice, not just theoretically.

It depends on a whole host of other things such as the cable. The problem is that for the user there is no obvious difference between cables and chargers, yet the performance varies a lot.

no, it simply reflects the fact that usb c standard permits a range of capabilities - just as uk mains leads can have different current ratings, and be two or three core - there's no need for every usb c device/cable to be able to deliver the maximum power

usb c has evolved over time, same physical connector, different capabilities, it'll continue to evolve, i.e. innovation has continued, being 'limited' to usb c has not stopped innovation, new devices use the new capabilities, old ones carry on working as before

If that was the case a OnePlus cable with a Hauwei 40W charger would produce different results.

It probably does. You would need to control for battery capacity and condition. The cheapo IKEA multi charger is slower than my Sony one with the same cable.

I showed a graph evidencing that it doesn't...

I saw the graph. Possibly I'm too tired, but I couldn't see how that demonstrated anything other than different combinations of charger and cable produce different results.

surrey_commuter

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

skyblueamateur

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

The news hasn't mention the slump of Sterling against the dollar. I assume that crude oil is traded in USD? If so then this will have had a massive affect on the cost of diesel and petrol in this country.

I'd forwarded at $1.35 six months ago and nearly had a heart-attack when I looked recently and saw what the rate was.

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

When I bang on about this I get called a doom monger and a Britain hater, so curious to see how you get on with this line of argument.

surrey_commuter

skyblueamateur said:

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

The news hasn't mention the slump of Sterling against the dollar. I assume that crude oil is traded in USD? If so then this will have had a massive affect on the cost of diesel and petrol in this country.

I'd forwarded at $1.35 six months ago and nearly had a heart-attack when I looked recently and saw what the rate was.

we can't be far off some dodgy FX place offering parity.

Though whether the € or $ officially gets there first is intriguing

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Getting back on topic there really is an avalanche of statistics showing that GB is performing worse than comparative countries.
FTSE 20% down compared to other indices
£ is the 3rd worse performing currency
GB predicted to have lowest growth
GB predicted to have highest inflation

I would love to know how the Govt enforces omertà on the private sector but surely the cracks will show.

When I bang on about this I get called a doom monger and a Britain hater, so curious to see how you get on with this line of argument.

now some of these are interconnected but it is getting interesting.

I would love to know how they are enforcing the silence as that would tell us when it is likely to break.

rick_chasey

What is the silence? Every industry body i know is wanging on about it.

The City is one of the few places that is going gangbusters but that is because we're just cresting another boom and it's in for a rough couple of years.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

What is the silence? Every industry body i know is wanging on about it.

The City is one of the few places that is going gangbusters but that is because we're just cresting another boom and it's in for a rough couple of years.

try looking in the press for industry bodies, or CEOs mentioning the impact of Brexit