BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
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TheBigBean said:
Is there much appetite in the EU?tailwindhome said:Can't imagine there's a huge appetite over there for a trade war with the EU over NI?
We always seem to return to a question of scale0 -
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
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We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
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Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
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TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.0 -
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Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.0 -
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.0 -
TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-government-publishes-brexit-proposals/Irish border ‘moves, in effect, into the Irish Sea’
The only part of the deal that has been changed relates to Northern Ireland, with the controversial “backstop” removed. The original proposal would have kept the UK under some EU rules until both sides agreed on new arrangements to ensure an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland – a key feature of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, which ended decades of sectarian violence.
The backstop was anathema to many right-wing Tory backbenchers – who provoked May’s downfall by repeatedly rejecting her deal, and then formed the bedrock of support for Johnson’s successful Conservative leadership campaign – because it could have kept the UK bound to some EU laws indefinitely.
Under Johnson’s agreement, the Northern Irish border will remain open; there will be no customs checks on the frontier between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Instead of the backstop to guarantee this, there will be customs checks on goods between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
This means that the Irish border “moves, in effect, into the Irish Sea”, noted Katy Haywood, a senior fellow at the UK in a Changing Europe think-tank, in a Twitter post.
Remember, Johnson will do anything to get to the day after today. If that means proposing something while privately saying he'll not honour it, that's what he'll do.0 -
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.0 -
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/12/10/news/the-story-of-the-irish-sea-border-in-six-quotes-2155761/"There will be no border down the Irish Sea… over my dead body." British Prime Minister Boris Johnson speaking to The Irish News in August 2020.
"Agreement being reached is confirmation that there will be a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This proposal from Boris Johnson last year was endorsed by Arlene Foster and her DUP colleagues on October 2 2019." Lord Reg Empey December 2020.
It does make me think that Johnson's main job qualification, for those that have enabled him (including voters) is that he can lie so blatantly: that at the same time he was telling people about his dead body, he was proposing exactly the opposite. Remember that the long-standing EU proposal had been the backstop.0 -
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking
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I thought EU intransigence and inflexibility of laws and regulations were one of the reasons we left? Surely we can't then be shocked that the EU is intransigent and follows the rules to the letter of the law.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking
Brexiteers should stop being so disingenuous and own this. It's what they voted for.0 -
skyblueamateur said:
I thought EU intransigence and inflexibility of laws and regulations were one of the reasons we left? Surely we can't then be shocked that the EU is intransigent and follows the rules to the letter of the law.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking
Brexiteers should stop being so disingenuous and own this. It's what they voted for.
They've been lied to so blatantly by others, they are lying to themselves now.0 -
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking0 -
Lies and betrayals. Totally on-brand Johnson.
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/boris-johnson-wholly-blame-disaster-irish-sea-border-1888501Mr Johnson, when he was on manoeuvres against Theresa May, came to Northern Ireland in late 2018 and denounced Theresa May’s Brexit deal for creating a border in the Irish Sea. During that speech to the DUP, he specified the unacceptable nature of tariffs and regulatory checks for goods within the UK. Then, months later, he voted for Mrs May’s deal at the third attempt.
As if that betrayal of his own rhetoric was not bad enough, then, after the failure of that deal to pass the House of Commons, Mr Johnson again began to talk as if he would stand by Northern Ireland unionists when he wanted the Tory leadership. He came to the Province during the party hustings and emphasised his support for the Union at the Tory conference.
Then, before that event had even ended, his first offer to the EU of a full regulatory border in the Irish Sea was unveiled. When that was rejected, Mr Johnson betrayed the DUP fully by also agreeing with Leo Varadkar to Irish Sea tariffs, at a meeting in Cheshire – thus a full internal UK trade border (despite NI staying nominally within UK customs).
While some details of that agreement, which formed the basis of the Brexit deal, have yet to be thrashed out, a full trade border is the thrust of what Mr Johnson conceded. It is the disaster that he created to further his own ambition.0 -
The backstop seemed like a pretty good one. Staying in the CU which was promised by the Leave side before the vote, would have been a pretty good option as well. That's been done to death.TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking
I'd be interested to see what posters on here were saying around the time this 'oven ready deal' was signed as I'm sure all of the issues we are currently experiencing were all suggested on here and dismissed as Remoaner Project Fear nonsense. Oh well.0 -
Fact:ddraver said:Once again, the EU just ignores Britain until we sheepishly just have to use their standards anyway...
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/foreign-office-passport-validity-europe-travel-b2077606.html
"The Foreign Office has finally changed its advice on passport validity for travel to the EU after dozens of airline passengers were wrongly told they couldn’t fly.
Officials have changed the wording of travel advice to bring it into line with the European Commission."
Fiction:
"A Foreign Office spokesperson said: “FCDO travel advice is kept under constant review to ensure British travellers are aware of the risks and have accurate information to help plan their trip.
“We welcome that the European Commission is now updating its guidance in regards to their rules affecting some UK passports”
The ambivalence in the UK government position has caused widespread confusion and distress."
I plan to visit the mainland soon. I realise it will be far harder than it was once and it could even be my last chance before WW3.0 -
A decision had to be made to adopt the least worse option but that should been done transparently to the UK electorate and in good faith to the EU. Not doing so has cuased this mess.TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking0 -
They could have been more transparent, but that is politics. I do think it was done in good faith, but that expectations were simply different. (I know everyone will laugh at me for believing that).surrey_commuter said:
A decision had to be made to adopt the least worse option but that should been done transparently to the UK electorate and in good faith to the EU. Not doing so has cuased this mess.TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking0 -
I thought the protocol was a decent idea. Second only to the honesty box.skyblueamateur said:
The backstop seemed like a pretty good one. Staying in the CU which was promised by the Leave side before the vote, would have been a pretty good option as well. That's been done to death.TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking
I'd be interested to see what posters on here were saying around the time this 'oven ready deal' was signed as I'm sure all of the issues we are currently experiencing were all suggested on here and dismissed as Remoaner Project Fear nonsense. Oh well.0 -
Sebastian Vettel on QT (so many questions) beautifully illustrated the mild bemusement and lack of interest of everyone outside Britain to brexit...
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
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Hence why I posted it in this thread.rick_chasey said:
Brexit innitmorstar said:Seems we've gained 90,000 civil servants since 2016.
Startling stuff given the wheels of government provided services seem to creak so badly.
Do you think I’m hard of understanding?0 -
Nah i realised after the fact, hence this post:morstar said:
Hence why I posted it in this thread.rick_chasey said:
Brexit innitmorstar said:Seems we've gained 90,000 civil servants since 2016.
Startling stuff given the wheels of government provided services seem to creak so badly.
Do you think I’m hard of understanding?rick_chasey said:For other stating the already obvious posts, see my TED talk
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My recollection is that the EU's preference initially was the Sea Border that we now have (at least on paper).TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
TM didn't like this and negotiated remaining in the CU until a solution to customs checks and keeping the Ireland/NI border open could be found. The EU weren't overly happy with this concept but went for it.
The ERG didn't like TM's CU-based approach and voted it down, ditching TM along the way.
Boris becomes PM and promises all things to all men, and then signs up to the Sea Border, presenting the act of giving the EU what it had originally wanted as an act of great statesmanship on his behalf.
Boris then wins a big majority, instructs his MPs to vote against allowing time for the deal to be debated and then to approve the deal.
UK leaves EU, trade deal negotiated, transition period ends and the EU then starts taking a tough line, as was wholly predictable given that the ERG etc. had routinely insulted the EU for years.
Boris starts crying about the sh*t deal that only a few months earlier was presented as his greatest triumph, blaming the EU for actually expecting the UK to honour the deal it signed.
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This thread is a good reminder of the government's own impact assessment, before the protocol was signed.
It only really makes sense now if you assume they never intended to honour it. Liars, through and through.
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NI Assembly collapses
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Ha! Boris is coming on Monday to sort it out.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
