BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
-
I predict troops needing to be redeployed by Tuesday.tailwindhome said:Ha! Boris is coming on Monday to sort it out.
0 -
Presumably not unfamiliar territory.tailwindhome said:NI Assembly collapses
0 -
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Will there be a backlash against the DUP?0
-
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:0 -
There are 53 MLA’s in favour of the protocol and 37 against it. Make of that what you will.TheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:0 -
Stormont is supposed to work on a cross community basis.skyblueamateur said:
There are 53 MLA’s in favour of the protocol and 37 against it. Make of that what you will.TheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:0 -
Correct.TheBigBean said:
Stormont is supposed to work on a cross community basis.skyblueamateur said:
There are 53 MLA’s in favour of the protocol and 37 against it. Make of that what you will.TheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
0 -
The DUP used to say they wanted the same border arrangement as at Dover.TheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
I am guessing the lot in the middle want what is best for NI
I am also guessing Sinn Fein want whateve leads to a united Ireland.
I just realised this is another example of Catholics playing the long game0 -
Great interview with Jonathan Powell on channel 4 news.
‘I think David Frost knows a lot more about Scotch whiskey then he does about NI’0 -
Why TF would we expect something that wasn't categorically written down? After we'd spent all that time and burnt one PM and you're suggesting we just hoping they didn't really mean it?TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
Why TF would we expect something that wasn't categorically written down? After we'd spent all that time and burnt one PM and you're suggesting we just hoping they didn't really mean it?TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking
Johnson's mendacious habits might be why the EU weren't overly keen on an 'honesty box'. Just putting 'honesty' and 'Johnson' in the same sentence is likely to lead to a kink in the space-time continuum.0 -
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!1 -
Never mind Johnson. If we wanted an honesty box approach but we didn't manage to get the EU to agree to explicitly set out in the agreement then we would have been fools to hope that they would somehow not mind if we did it anyway.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
Why TF would we expect something that wasn't categorically written down? After we'd spent all that time and burnt one PM and you're suggesting we just hoping they didn't really mean it?TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking
Johnson's mendacious habits might be why the EU weren't overly keen on an 'honesty box'. Just putting 'honesty' and 'Johnson' in the same sentence is likely to lead to a kink in the space-time continuum.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yes, and the population of NI voted against Brexit, so that could be cancelled as an act of unity. These are all still solutions that require other people to do stuff. It would be possible, in theory, for NI to agree something that respects the wishes of GB and ROI as well.tailwindhome said:
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement0 -
There are safeguards that are written down e.g. Article 16. Everyone just reads the bit of the agreement that they like.rjsterry said:
Why TF would we expect something that wasn't categorically written down? After we'd spent all that time and burnt one PM and you're suggesting we just hoping they didn't really mean it?TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking0 -
Genius.skyblueamateur said:Great interview with Jonathan Powell on channel 4 news.
‘I think David Frost knows a lot more about Scotch whiskey then he does about NI’
I may be giving it credit it doesn't deserve though.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Sure. It's just that we've been threatening to do it on and off, almost since we signed the thing. And always backing down when we realise we are the junior party. Which suggests that it is more about signalling to supporters than actually achieving an aim.TheBigBean said:
There are safeguards that are written down e.g. Article 16. Everyone just reads the bit of the agreement that they like.rjsterry said:
Why TF would we expect something that wasn't categorically written down? After we'd spent all that time and burnt one PM and you're suggesting we just hoping they didn't really mean it?TheBigBean said:
I think the expectation was more than name only, but much lighter touch than the EU is proposing. It is wishful thinking, but there weren't many alternatives.surrey_commuter said:
so we signed up to what we thought was a border in name only?TheBigBean said:
Customs taxes would be harmonised with the UK and the agreement was dynamic, so the Joint Committee could work together to make sure it works by making changes as required.surrey_commuter said:
Can somebody remind me what the big thing was that Boris proposed that "unlocked" the negotiations?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but your tweet says Johnson proposed the barrier which is a lie. The EU spent years proposing it.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Yes. Just seems strange to call someone a liar and then open up with a lie.surrey_commuter said:
We had plenty of other red linesTheBigBean said:
The EU proposed the barrier. Either that or no deal.briantrumpet said:Dougan doesn't hold back... justified, since we appear to have an AG who has taken her cue for politicised AG'ing from William Barr, when her job description is to uphold the law, not to defend illegal acts because they are proposed by Johnson.
Both parties agreed the barrier. That's how agreements work.
The problem is that UK thought this would lead to light touch controls and the EU thought it meant the UK had finally agreed to their proposal of regulating NI in full.
Based upon what they knew about the EU that seems like wishful thinking1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I don't really get the point you're trying to make.TheBigBean said:
Yes, and the population of NI voted against Brexit, so that could be cancelled as an act of unity. These are all still solutions that require other people to do stuff. It would be possible, in theory, for NI to agree something that respects the wishes of GB and ROI as well.tailwindhome said:
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
If everyone in NI agreed that the preferred solution would be to have goods checked on both borders then the rest of the world would be perfectly happy. Everyone in NI would be equally inconvenienced and irritated.tailwindhome said:
I don't really get the point you're trying to make.TheBigBean said:
Yes, and the population of NI voted against Brexit, so that could be cancelled as an act of unity. These are all still solutions that require other people to do stuff. It would be possible, in theory, for NI to agree something that respects the wishes of GB and ROI as well.tailwindhome said:
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Clearly, that's a pointless solution, but it is possible for something else to be agreed that shows compromises. Of course, that then needs to be put to the EU/UK, but it would be much more compelling place to start.
For example, do Sinn Fein really care which country sets VAT on domestic heating?0 -
OKTheBigBean said:
If everyone in NI agreed that the preferred solution would be to have goods checked on both borders then the rest of the world would be perfectly happy. Everyone in NI would be equally inconvenienced and irritated.tailwindhome said:
I don't really get the point you're trying to make.TheBigBean said:
Yes, and the population of NI voted against Brexit, so that could be cancelled as an act of unity. These are all still solutions that require other people to do stuff. It would be possible, in theory, for NI to agree something that respects the wishes of GB and ROI as well.tailwindhome said:
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Clearly, that's a pointless solution, but it is possible for something else to be agreed that shows compromises. Of course, that then needs to be put to the EU/UK, but it would be much more compelling place to start.
For example, do Sinn Fein really care which country sets VAT on domestic heating?
I said that the difference in this crisis was that negotiations weren't in the gift of the local parties
You seemed to disagree but have twice pointed out that any solution has to be accepted by the EU and the UK.
The only example solution you come up with you recognise as pointless
All 5 parties have publicly stated that an SPS/Veterinary agreement between the EU and UK is a solution that is workable and that they would support. They could agree that in the morning
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
It's not that I disagree with your point completely, it's just that proposals such as SPS agreements require everyone else outside of NI to compromise for the benefit of NI.tailwindhome said:
OKTheBigBean said:
If everyone in NI agreed that the preferred solution would be to have goods checked on both borders then the rest of the world would be perfectly happy. Everyone in NI would be equally inconvenienced and irritated.tailwindhome said:
I don't really get the point you're trying to make.TheBigBean said:
Yes, and the population of NI voted against Brexit, so that could be cancelled as an act of unity. These are all still solutions that require other people to do stuff. It would be possible, in theory, for NI to agree something that respects the wishes of GB and ROI as well.tailwindhome said:
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Clearly, that's a pointless solution, but it is possible for something else to be agreed that shows compromises. Of course, that then needs to be put to the EU/UK, but it would be much more compelling place to start.
For example, do Sinn Fein really care which country sets VAT on domestic heating?
I said that the difference in this crisis was that negotiations weren't in the gift of the local parties
You seemed to disagree but have twice pointed out that any solution has to be accepted by the EU and the UK.
The only example solution you come up with you recognise as pointless
All 5 parties have publicly stated that an SPS/Veterinary agreement between the EU and UK is a solution that is workable and that they would support. They could agree that in the morning
What I'm saying is that NI itself could try to come up with an idea whereby its population accepts compromises on a cross community basis. Unionists are happy for cows to be checked on arrival. Nationalists should be happy with UK VAT on heating. Keep going until the pain is shared.
I don't expect you to agree.0 -
-
.....
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
-
Is that not just what a lot of us have been saying on here for a long time?TheBigBean said:
0 -
.skyblueamateur said:
Yes, which is why I thanked TBB for linking to it.All of this leaves two fundamental questions hanging over the Protocol, which are acutely relevant as London prepares to dismantle it.
Did Boris Johnson deliberately sign the Protocol (triggering an election and a landslide majority) knowing he would disregard it later?
Or did he sign it and then hope that things would work out, and if they didn’t the UK would back out of its obligations anyway?
Andrew McCormick believes it was the latter.
Yet another example of Johnson doing stuff just to escape today and survive till tomorrow. He's a walking catastrophe, without a single redeeming feature.1 -
The Northern Ireland parties don't have the agency to decide either of those two items.TheBigBean said:
It's not that I disagree with your point completely, it's just that proposals such as SPS agreements require everyone else outside of NI to compromise for the benefit of NI.tailwindhome said:
OKTheBigBean said:
If everyone in NI agreed that the preferred solution would be to have goods checked on both borders then the rest of the world would be perfectly happy. Everyone in NI would be equally inconvenienced and irritated.tailwindhome said:
I don't really get the point you're trying to make.TheBigBean said:
Yes, and the population of NI voted against Brexit, so that could be cancelled as an act of unity. These are all still solutions that require other people to do stuff. It would be possible, in theory, for NI to agree something that respects the wishes of GB and ROI as well.tailwindhome said:
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Clearly, that's a pointless solution, but it is possible for something else to be agreed that shows compromises. Of course, that then needs to be put to the EU/UK, but it would be much more compelling place to start.
For example, do Sinn Fein really care which country sets VAT on domestic heating?
I said that the difference in this crisis was that negotiations weren't in the gift of the local parties
You seemed to disagree but have twice pointed out that any solution has to be accepted by the EU and the UK.
The only example solution you come up with you recognise as pointless
All 5 parties have publicly stated that an SPS/Veterinary agreement between the EU and UK is a solution that is workable and that they would support. They could agree that in the morning
What I'm saying is that NI itself could try to come up with an idea whereby its population accepts compromises on a cross community basis. Unionists are happy for cows to be checked on arrival. Nationalists should be happy with UK VAT on heating. Keep going until the pain is shared.
I don't expect you to agree.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Yes I know, but if the NI government put forward something with cross party support that doesn't require GB or Ireland to change, then it would be very compelling. They are much more aware of what works and what doesn't than the UK government and the EU.tailwindhome said:
The Northern Ireland parties don't have the agency to decide either of those two items.TheBigBean said:
It's not that I disagree with your point completely, it's just that proposals such as SPS agreements require everyone else outside of NI to compromise for the benefit of NI.tailwindhome said:
OKTheBigBean said:
If everyone in NI agreed that the preferred solution would be to have goods checked on both borders then the rest of the world would be perfectly happy. Everyone in NI would be equally inconvenienced and irritated.tailwindhome said:
I don't really get the point you're trying to make.TheBigBean said:
Yes, and the population of NI voted against Brexit, so that could be cancelled as an act of unity. These are all still solutions that require other people to do stuff. It would be possible, in theory, for NI to agree something that respects the wishes of GB and ROI as well.tailwindhome said:
They didTheBigBean said:
If Stormont presented a united view on Brexit, it would be hard to ignore, so it is easy to say that the issue lies with the actions of others, but I'm not sure it is really true.tailwindhome said:
Nope. The difference is that the negotiations which will lead to resumption aren't in the gift of the parties in StormontTheBigBean said:
Every MLA voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Every MP voted to reject the Withdrawal Agreement
Clearly, that's a pointless solution, but it is possible for something else to be agreed that shows compromises. Of course, that then needs to be put to the EU/UK, but it would be much more compelling place to start.
For example, do Sinn Fein really care which country sets VAT on domestic heating?
I said that the difference in this crisis was that negotiations weren't in the gift of the local parties
You seemed to disagree but have twice pointed out that any solution has to be accepted by the EU and the UK.
The only example solution you come up with you recognise as pointless
All 5 parties have publicly stated that an SPS/Veterinary agreement between the EU and UK is a solution that is workable and that they would support. They could agree that in the morning
What I'm saying is that NI itself could try to come up with an idea whereby its population accepts compromises on a cross community basis. Unionists are happy for cows to be checked on arrival. Nationalists should be happy with UK VAT on heating. Keep going until the pain is shared.
I don't expect you to agree.0
