BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
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Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?
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Or maybe other people have more imagination than just simply banging on about how we used to do things. Unless you commute from Cambridge on a flatbed wagon, your experience of the railways is as relevant to road freight as having a Megabus season ticket.rick_chasey said:I get that we are in a sort of neo victorian world where we have to rely on a few ultra rich benefactors to make interesting technological developments and blame the poor for their own poverty, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised everyone gets a hard on over rail.
My experience of rail is that it is abhorrently expensive and British rail cannot cope with any increased demand, and any attempt to improve capacity is met with shrieking nimbyism that massively increases the cost of it.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition2 -
Yes. We all know this. But we aren't rejoining the SM or suddenly issuing lots of visas for truck drivers. We *are* going to get used to higher prices. This has already happened in the construction industry. It doesn't matter whether any of us here want it or not.rick_chasey said:
Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Your experience is completely wrong, which is why we're investing in rail.rick_chasey said:I get that we are in a sort of neo victorian world where we have to rely on a few ultra rich benefactors to make interesting technological developments and blame the poor for their own poverty, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised everyone gets a hard on over rail.
My experience of rail is that it is abhorrently expensive and British rail cannot cope with any increased demand, and any attempt to improve capacity is met with shrieking nimbyism that massively increases the cost of it.
Plus we need to if we want to meet climate change targets.
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I don't think the lack of HGV drivers is the right lever though.rick_chasey said:You gotta build the case for rejoining.
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Increasing the price of food, which is what the CBI and supermarket consortiums are suggesting will happen, as well as things like construction, including the cost of building new homes, are all things that should go down badly and people feel should not be tolerated.elbowloh said:
I don't think the lack of HGV drivers is the right lever though.rick_chasey said:You gotta build the case for rejoining.
These are not things that are good or people like. In a very narrow sense Brexiters can be pleased that these issues, which are most noticable when they first happen, are being shrouded in part by the broader disruption of the global pandemic.
It is harder to see reduced resilience to shocks when the shock is very large and affects the world, right? We all lump it into the same "Corona, world is f*cked" bucket.
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Have you really forgotten why many people voted to leave? Economics or logical argument didn't come into it and those pushing for Brexit will just find a way to make everything the EU's fault. The conclusion will probably be to tighten immigration so that there is less need for deliveries #britishfoodforbritishpeoplerick_chasey said:
Increasing the price of food, which is what the CBI and supermarket consortiums are suggesting will happen, as well as things like construction, including the cost of building new homes, are all things that should go down badly and people feel should not be tolerated.elbowloh said:
I don't think the lack of HGV drivers is the right lever though.rick_chasey said:You gotta build the case for rejoining.
These are not things that are good or people like. In a very narrow sense Brexiters can be pleased that these issues, which are most noticable when they first happen, are being shrouded in part by the broader disruption of the global pandemic.
It is harder to see reduced resilience to shocks when the shock is very large and affects the world, right? We all lump it into the same "Corona, world is f*cked" bucket.0 -
I think things like prices of food rising, shortage etc, is tangible and people notice.
People aren't swayed by "it'll knock of 2% of gdp, which compounded means blah blah". I get that.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.0 -
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.0 -
Haha, not in that instance, but that was the crux of the newsnight interview with whichever industry representative it was.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.
They were livid. Really annoyed.0 -
Doing something the same as we did it two years ago doesn't work, get a grip.rick_chasey said:
Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?0 -
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.0 -
But it did work? Very well as it turned out.darkhairedlord said:
Doing something the same as we did it two years ago doesn't work, get a grip.rick_chasey said:
Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?0 -
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.0 -
We left the EU, I didn't vote for it either but here we are.rick_chasey said:
But it did work? Very well as it turned out.darkhairedlord said:
Doing something the same as we did it two years ago doesn't work, get a grip.rick_chasey said:
Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?
It's time to stop crying in your 0,5L0 -
IT'S.rick_chasey said:
But it did work? Very well as it turned out.darkhairedlord said:
Doing something the same as we did it two years ago doesn't work, get a grip.rick_chasey said:
Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?
GONE.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.0 -
Are we just ignoring the truckers who have said they have seen the rates increase by 40% and are still not interested in returning to the trade?darkhairedlord said:
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.
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What's wrong with pointing out the best solution? It's entirely in the UK's grasp.rjsterry said:
IT'S.rick_chasey said:
But it did work? Very well as it turned out.darkhairedlord said:
Doing something the same as we did it two years ago doesn't work, get a grip.rick_chasey said:
Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?
GONE.
There's no mandate for either position re the EU single market. It is causing problems in Northern Ireland - they haven't disappeared.
It's now causing problems elsewhere. Why should it be off the table?0 -
So where does rejoining the EU help that and why do EU drivers seem more prepared to accept rubbish working practices?rick_chasey said:
Are we just ignoring the truckers who have said they have seen the rates increase by 40% and are still not interested in returning to the trade?darkhairedlord said:
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.0 -
I don't know, to be clear ,but that does seem to be the case.Pross said:
So where does rejoining the EU help that and why do EU drivers seem more prepared to accept rubbish working practices?rick_chasey said:
Are we just ignoring the truckers who have said they have seen the rates increase by 40% and are still not interested in returning to the trade?darkhairedlord said:
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.
At a guess, I would imagine the markets these people are coming from have fewer opportunities to do other more lucrative or fulfilling jobs than the EU.
These guys are not driving lorries at the UK minimum wage AFIK.
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They're not but I never had you as an advocate of getting immigrant labour to do jobs so that the conditions don't have to be improved.rick_chasey said:
I don't know, to be clear ,but that does seem to be the case.Pross said:
So where does rejoining the EU help that and why do EU drivers seem more prepared to accept rubbish working practices?rick_chasey said:
Are we just ignoring the truckers who have said they have seen the rates increase by 40% and are still not interested in returning to the trade?darkhairedlord said:
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.
At a guess, I would imagine the markets these people are coming from have fewer opportunities to do other more lucrative or fulfilling jobs than the EU.
These guys are not driving lorries at the UK minimum wage AFIK.0 -
It's been causing problems since we left. You've only just encountered them with your fridge. But we aren't going back to the SM. It's not the best solution; it's just wishing for stuff that won't happen. It would take years even if they agreed to do it tomorrow. There is no way this government will do it so that puts us some time in the 2030S at the absolute earliest.rick_chasey said:
What's wrong with pointing out the best solution? It's entirely in the UK's grasp.rjsterry said:
IT'S.rick_chasey said:
But it did work? Very well as it turned out.darkhairedlord said:
Doing something the same as we did it two years ago doesn't work, get a grip.rick_chasey said:
Let me get this straight, you want to pay more for the same food because you care about the nationality of the lorry driver?darkhairedlord said:
Financially cost effective you mean.rick_chasey said:
It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.rjsterry said:
You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.rick_chasey said:Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.
It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.
And then, it is assuming things return to pre-brexit driver availability and costs. This isn't happening. so road haulage is not cost effective, because it isn't able to do the job!
Christ on a bike.
Supermarkets having increased supply costs will lose them money even if they off-set the entirity of their costs onto consumers, as the consumers don't suddenly have more money - the money goes so far, so they will just end up buying less.
You do know this, right?
GONE.
There's no mandate for either position re the EU single market. It is causing problems in Northern Ireland - they haven't disappeared.
It's now causing problems elsewhere. Why should it be off the table?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Unless there's something morally wrong with the conditions, inhumane etc, then why not?Pross said:
They're not but I never had you as an advocate of getting immigrant labour to do jobs so that the conditions don't have to be improved.rick_chasey said:
I don't know, to be clear ,but that does seem to be the case.Pross said:
So where does rejoining the EU help that and why do EU drivers seem more prepared to accept rubbish working practices?rick_chasey said:
Are we just ignoring the truckers who have said they have seen the rates increase by 40% and are still not interested in returning to the trade?darkhairedlord said:
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.
At a guess, I would imagine the markets these people are coming from have fewer opportunities to do other more lucrative or fulfilling jobs than the EU.
These guys are not driving lorries at the UK minimum wage AFIK.
You have to remember the majority of my family are "immigrant labour". Absolutely nothing wrong for someone coming to a country to work there. I believe they should be welcomed with open arms.0 -
It was more that they should be prepared to work in the conditions that British drivers have decided are not good enough for them. That said it feels like drivers are looking for things to blame as previously they complained about foreign drivers keeping wages down.rick_chasey said:
Unless there's something morally wrong with the conditions, inhumane etc, then why not?Pross said:
They're not but I never had you as an advocate of getting immigrant labour to do jobs so that the conditions don't have to be improved.rick_chasey said:
I don't know, to be clear ,but that does seem to be the case.Pross said:
So where does rejoining the EU help that and why do EU drivers seem more prepared to accept rubbish working practices?rick_chasey said:
Are we just ignoring the truckers who have said they have seen the rates increase by 40% and are still not interested in returning to the trade?darkhairedlord said:
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.
At a guess, I would imagine the markets these people are coming from have fewer opportunities to do other more lucrative or fulfilling jobs than the EU.
These guys are not driving lorries at the UK minimum wage AFIK.
You have to remember the majority of my family are "immigrant labour". Absolutely nothing wrong for someone coming to a country to work there. I believe they should be welcomed with open arms.0 -
Yeah I mean I have no idea why they will work in conditions the locals won't, but that doesn't mean the conditions are horrendous per se.Pross said:
It was more that they should be prepared to work in the conditions that British drivers have decided are not good enough for them. That said it feels like drivers are looking for things to blame as previously they complained about foreign drivers keeping wages down.rick_chasey said:
Unless there's something morally wrong with the conditions, inhumane etc, then why not?Pross said:
They're not but I never had you as an advocate of getting immigrant labour to do jobs so that the conditions don't have to be improved.rick_chasey said:
I don't know, to be clear ,but that does seem to be the case.Pross said:
So where does rejoining the EU help that and why do EU drivers seem more prepared to accept rubbish working practices?rick_chasey said:
Are we just ignoring the truckers who have said they have seen the rates increase by 40% and are still not interested in returning to the trade?darkhairedlord said:
once the doors are open. The whole thing smells like a put up job by the RHA to suppress wages and working conditions. They want their cake...surrey_commuter said:
but how long will it take to gear up o that they can train the additional drivers? why not bring in enough to alleviate the problem but not enough to push up wages and increase the numbers training?darkhairedlord said:
The free market can adjust quickly when it wants to. those that do adjust prosper, those firms that keep standing around saying "wish we had some drivers, wish we had single maket, yaddah yaddah.." they go bust and someone else picks up the slack.surrey_commuter said:
in whatever a live blog is, does anybody point out the contradiction between an immediate shortage and long-term investment?rick_chasey said:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/sep/06/keir-starmer-labour-national-insurance-boris-johnson-nhs-covid-afghanistan-uk-politics-live
from the liveblogAnd he confirmed that the government was opposed to putting HGV drivers on the government’s shortage occupation list, which would make it easier for firms to hire drivers from abroad. “We want to see employers make long-term investments in the UK domestic workforce, rather than relying on labour from abroad,” he said.
At a guess, I would imagine the markets these people are coming from have fewer opportunities to do other more lucrative or fulfilling jobs than the EU.
These guys are not driving lorries at the UK minimum wage AFIK.
You have to remember the majority of my family are "immigrant labour". Absolutely nothing wrong for someone coming to a country to work there. I believe they should be welcomed with open arms.
If they are horrendous then of course, there should be both some legislation and enforcement in place to ensure that's not the case, but I really don't think it is.
Not that I would have much say over what my children did, but if they asked me about a career in haulage I would suggest they do another job - I suspect a lot of us here would too.0 -
Every freight train I have ever seen pulling loads is a couple of diesel locomotives. Not sure that is the green answer you are looking for. When we all have electric vehicles and most of our power comes from carbon free sources why are we bothered about trains when they don't take those outside cities from door to door. This is the elephant in the room the greens miss in that if technology makes something green then they lose their objection. Why not another motorway when everything on it is green for example.elbowloh said:
Your experience is completely wrong, which is why we're investing in rail.rick_chasey said:I get that we are in a sort of neo victorian world where we have to rely on a few ultra rich benefactors to make interesting technological developments and blame the poor for their own poverty, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised everyone gets a hard on over rail.
My experience of rail is that it is abhorrently expensive and British rail cannot cope with any increased demand, and any attempt to improve capacity is met with shrieking nimbyism that massively increases the cost of it.
Plus we need to if we want to meet climate change targets.0
