BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

...We have recently seen what less busy looks like, with the lockdowns and it was disastrous for lots of people.

The reasons for it being disastrous wasn't because it was quiet though.
Quiet was the consequence, not the source of the problem.

rick_chasey

The cliche has always been whatever country is too full and the optimum population level is at whatever range it was when they were growing up.

Let's get down to numbers. What number means the UK is too full and how are you arriving at that number?

pblakeney

Let's get down to numbers. What number means the SE is too full and how are you arriving at that number?

Probably more accurate. 😉
Reason - Centralisation.

rjsterry

john80 said:

morstar said:

pangolin said:

"We can't accommodate infinite people"

"You guys are making straw men arguments"

Ok got me.

But to take the arguments being made, no amount possible is too many it seems.

I know not everyone wants to live here but there’s 7bn on the planet.

I’d guess we could quite easily get to 100-200 million that would quite happily give it a go.

FFS, it’s a really weird conversation. I’m not actually arguing for population reduction, just saying I find the country fuller than I think would be optimum. It’s hardly an extreme view.

It’s on a par with being stuck in traffic and thinking it’d be nice if the roads were less busy. Really not too sure what point everybody thinks they’re proving by rallying against such an innocuous opinion.

What people are also missing is that outside office blocks in the centres of cities the UK is not set up for high density living. To do what people are advocating you would have to start buying people's houses through forced purchases and then build 10 plus storey buildings. Can't see many voting for this but I can see a lot voting for the status quo with limits on population increases and economic strategies to stop them all living in the South East.

As an aside the northern sections of the M6 is not a traffic jam for most of the day now which was not the case 20 years ago. This is due to people building houses and industry along this route. Now we are all having electric vehicles what is the argument for not building more roads.

This goes on already. A local authority sells off a big chunk of their housing to a developer. Tenants are evicted/rehomed and leaseholders bought out; site is redeveloped with flats sold on the open market, which are then bought as investments and left empty. For example, the Elephant and Castle redevelopment.



People do seem to vote for it.

elbowloh

And as for food security, we are already reliant on other nations and imports for this.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

So the straw man is up to a population of 200 million and compulsory purchases of our houses

That's slightly unfair. Rick was advocating complete freedom of movement of labour from the entire world. This would lead to a lot of minimum wage jobs and a population increase. No one knows what that increase would be, but it would presumably be a lot.

It's a pointless discussion, because it makes no sense and won't happen.

TheBigBean

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

pblakeney

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

I predict - (I).

darkhairedlord

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

kingstongraham

I've changed my mind, we aren't big enough to ignore the benefits of being in the single market/customs union, despite it meaning we'll be rule takers with no say in the process. It's madness.

darkhairedlord

kingstongraham said:

.

Lorry drivers start somewhere.

kingstongraham

darkhairedlord said:

kingstongraham said:

.

Lorry drivers start somewhere.

Sorry, I realised I was talking nonsense and misreading your post, so deleted mine.

darkhairedlord

kingstongraham said:

darkhairedlord said:

kingstongraham said:

.

Lorry drivers start somewhere.

Sorry, I realised I was talking nonsense and misreading your post, so deleted mine.

Don't say sorry, I was probably rambling.
If you passed your test before 1997 then you can already drive a 7.5t lorry. So most of us over 42 ish. Easy enough to swap from doing min wage hermes deliveries out the back of a citroen saxo.

kingstongraham

darkhairedlord said:

kingstongraham said:

darkhairedlord said:

kingstongraham said:

.

Lorry drivers start somewhere.

Sorry, I realised I was talking nonsense and misreading your post, so deleted mine.

Don't say sorry, I was probably rambling.
If you passed your test before 1997 then you can already drive a 7.5t lorry. So most of us over 42 ish. Easy enough to swap from doing min wage hermes deliveries out the back of a citroen saxo.

Are there shortages of drivers for that size vehicle? If not, maybe there will be when thousands of them go off to train and earn the big bucks driving an HGV.

TheBigBean

darkhairedlord said:

kingstongraham said:

darkhairedlord said:

kingstongraham said:

.

Lorry drivers start somewhere.

Sorry, I realised I was talking nonsense and misreading your post, so deleted mine.

Don't say sorry, I was probably rambling.
If you passed your test before 1997 then you can already drive a 7.5t lorry. So most of us over 42 ish. Easy enough to swap from doing min wage hermes deliveries out the back of a citroen saxo.

Presumably 7.5t lorries are in short supply at the moment.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

The cliche has always been whatever country is too full and the optimum population level is at whatever range it was when they were growing up.

Let's get down to numbers. What number means the UK is too full and how are you arriving at that number?

The biggest worrier about population density is John who lives in Cumbria which just happens to be the least densely populated English county.

I have no idea why people in the sticks are so worried about population density and traffic congestion in the cities.

pangolin

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The cliche has always been whatever country is too full and the optimum population level is at whatever range it was when they were growing up.

Let's get down to numbers. What number means the UK is too full and how are you arriving at that number?

The biggest worrier about population density is John who lives in Cumbria which just happens to be the least densely populated English county.

I have no idea why people in the sticks are so worried about population density and traffic congestion in the cities.

Or the prospect of being inconvenienced by a protest in a city.

It is an odd phenomenon.

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The cliche has always been whatever country is too full and the optimum population level is at whatever range it was when they were growing up.

Let's get down to numbers. What number means the UK is too full and how are you arriving at that number?

The biggest worrier about population density is John who lives in Cumbria which just happens to be the least densely populated English county.

I have no idea why people in the sticks are so worried about population density and traffic congestion in the cities.

I guess they feel it's the country life that is more under threat with bigger populations rather than urban living.

elbowloh

darkhairedlord said:

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last miles.

Jezyboy

elbowloh said:

darkhairedlord said:

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last miles.

Aren't the railways pretty close to capacity?

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The cliche has always been whatever country is too full and the optimum population level is at whatever range it was when they were growing up.

Let's get down to numbers. What number means the UK is too full and how are you arriving at that number?

The biggest worrier about population density is John who lives in Cumbria which just happens to be the least densely populated English county.

I have no idea why people in the sticks are so worried about population density and traffic congestion in the cities.

Knock on effect of expansion presumably although it would take a huge shift in the dynamics of the country for Cumbria to start to become over-populated (although it probably seems that way in the summer due to the infrastructure just not being suitable for the amount of visitors).

rick_chasey

Wholesale food body was on radio 4 today, basically saying it's a sh!tshow for lots of reasons already covered on the thread.

Basically saying for now the cost rises in food haven't been passed onto consumers yet but they will.

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

The cliche has always been whatever country is too full and the optimum population level is at whatever range it was when they were growing up.

Let's get down to numbers. What number means the UK is too full and how are you arriving at that number?

The biggest worrier about population density is John who lives in Cumbria which just happens to be the least densely populated English county.

I have no idea why people in the sticks are so worried about population density and traffic congestion in the cities.

Knock on effect of expansion presumably although it would take a huge shift in the dynamics of the country for Cumbria to start to become over-populated (although it probably seems that way in the summer due to the infrastructure just not being suitable for the amount of visitors).

if you put in the infrastructure more people would move there

rjsterry

elbowloh said:

darkhairedlord said:

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last miles.

Except the rail network was already pretty much at capacity and seemingly everyone hates the idea of building more rail capacity.

elbowloh

Jezyboy said:

elbowloh said:

darkhairedlord said:

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last miles.

Aren't the railways pretty close to capacity?

Many commuter lines are or were pre-covid, but trains are still not back to capacity and some companies services. For example Southern, my local company is cutting some direct services into London on a commuter line.

elbowloh

rjsterry said:

elbowloh said:

darkhairedlord said:

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last miles.

Except the rail network was already pretty much at capacity and seemingly everyone hates the idea of building more rail capacity.

You talking about HS2?

kingstongraham

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

rjsterry

elbowloh said:

rjsterry said:

elbowloh said:

darkhairedlord said:

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last miles.

Except the rail network was already pretty much at capacity and seemingly everyone hates the idea of building more rail capacity.

You talking about HS2?

Obviously 😏.
It's basically the same as housing. Everyone agrees we need more capacity, just as long as it doesn't cost them anything and isn't built anywhere near them.

elbowloh

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

Why do people on here seize on one person making a suggestion to the whole board being decided on something? Hyperbole much?

Oh, i forgot, the internet.

kingstongraham

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

Why do people on here seize on one person making a suggestion to the whole board being decided on something? Hyperbole much?

Oh, i forgot, the internet.

The thread seemed to have started talking mostly about rail freight. Forgive me. Is it now up to Brexiteers to solve the climate change issue? We're doomed.