BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

rick_chasey

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

pangolin

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

Why do people on here seize on one person making a suggestion to the whole board being decided on something? Hyperbole much?

Oh, i forgot, the internet.

darkhairedlord

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

elbowloh

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

Why do people on here seize on one person making a suggestion to the whole board being decided on something? Hyperbole much?

Oh, i forgot, the internet.

The thread seemed to have started talking mostly about rail freight. Forgive me. Is it now up to Brexiteers to solve the climate change issue? We're doomed.

2+2=5 for you?

Pross

rjsterry said:

elbowloh said:

darkhairedlord said:

TheBigBean said:

To answer the question posed above about what the UK government could do about the lorry driver shortage, I think there are three options (I) nothing (ii) get the HGV lorry driver testing working overtime (iii) charging for special work visa to allow a foreign worker.

Ban HGVs on weekends. This will encourage broader use of the the rail network for transportation and distribution. No need for more drivers, more lorries, etc. There is sure to be a shake-out anyway as the min wage gig economy drivers drift to better paid more secure jobs in the sector. Might be curtains for deliveroo and ocado.

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last miles.

Except the rail network was already pretty much at capacity and seemingly everyone hates the idea of building more rail capacity.

You could possibly run freight at night when there are virtually no passenger services. I live near the main South Wales - Manchester line and I think the last passenger train passes at around 11pm with the first in the morning being after 5am. Even in the day it only carries one train each way every 30 minutes. It used to have a lot of freight as it linked the steelworks in Newport to Shotton for finishing but that has drastically reduced.

elbowloh

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

Why do people on here seize on one person making a suggestion to the whole board being decided on something? Hyperbole much?

Oh, i forgot, the internet.

The thread seemed to have started talking mostly about rail freight. Forgive me. Is it now up to Brexiteers to solve the climate change issue? We're doomed.

2+2=5 for you?

I said this HGV driver crisis was a good opportunity for rail freight. I said nothing about it being up to Brexiteers to fix anything let along climate change. It wasn't even a criticism of anyone.

elbowloh

.

rick_chasey

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

elbowloh

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

Surely it's just an expansion of the conversation as happens on any thread?

rick_chasey

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Right. How are you getting the stuff from wherever it is being produced, which changes all the time, to your warehouse and then from your warehouse to your shops?

You can either get a lorry that takes it from the supplier to the warehouse or you can get a lorry that takes it to the rail station, which will then take it near the warehouse where you put it back on a lorry to take it to the warehouse.

And even then you'll still need a lorry to take it from the warehouse to the shops.

Take berries in the summer for example. Earlier on in the season the berries typically come from the south of the UK, as they ripen first. So your suppliers at that part of the season are typically from there. Then, as the summer goes on, the berries start to come from further and further north. By the time you're in August, your berries are coming from Scotland.

This happens for lots of food, for example.

Your walkers crisps - to keep the potatoes growing all year around, they use different potatoes in different parts of the year as they work better in different seasons, so they will get their potatoes from all different farms depending on the time of year.

Are you then going to build a railway to each one? No.


I guess this is annoying me as this is the entire premise of transport tycoon which was my gateway PC game, which I played solidly from the age of about 5 to 11.

Rail made you the most money by far (until you could get concord but that's a different story) but rail only made sense for things that didn't move about.

So passenger rail was always fraught with problems as the town population would ebb and flow so much. No problem with busses, because you could easily re-route them.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Right. How are you getting the stuff from wherever it is being produced, which changes all the time, to your warehouse and then from your warehouse to your shops?

You can either get a lorry that takes it from the supplier to the warehouse or you can get a lorry that takes it to the rail station, which will then take it near the warehouse where you put it back on a lorry to take it to the warehouse.

And even then you'll still need a lorry to take it from the warehouse to the shops.

Take berries in the summer for example. Earlier on in the season the berries typically come from the south of the UK, as they ripen first. So your suppliers at that part of the season are typically from there. Then, as the summer goes on, the berries start to come from further and further north. By the time you're in August, your berries are coming from Scotland.

This happens for lots of food, for example.

Your walkers crisps - to keep the potatoes growing all year around, they use different potatoes in different parts of the year as they work better in different seasons, so they will get their potatoes from all different farms depending on the time of year.

Are you then going to build a railway to each one? No.


I guess this is annoying me as this is the entire premise of transport tycoon which was my gateway PC game, which I played solidly from the age of about 5 to 11.

Rail made you the most money by far (until you could get concord but that's a different story) but rail only made sense for things that didn't move about.

So passenger rail was always fraught with problems as the town population would ebb and flow so much. No problem with busses, because you could easily re-route them.

You have freight rail terminals and lorries to and from them (much like we do with air and sea). No-one is suggesting you do away with lorries all together but if you reduce the long-range lorry journeys you are freeing up capacity for more shorter trips, local trips can be done with smaller vehicles and you also reduce the working hours / overnighting in laybys that are apparently things that drive people out of the job.

kingstongraham

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

Why do people on here seize on one person making a suggestion to the whole board being decided on something? Hyperbole much?

Oh, i forgot, the internet.

The thread seemed to have started talking mostly about rail freight. Forgive me. Is it now up to Brexiteers to solve the climate change issue? We're doomed.

2+2=5 for you?

You say the problem with a short term supply of HGV drivers caused by Brexit is an opportunity to reconfigure the whole supply chain from road focused to rail focused, and then accuse me of making illogical connections?

elbowloh

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Right. How are you getting the stuff from wherever it is being produced, which changes all the time, to your warehouse and then from your warehouse to your shops?

You can either get a lorry that takes it from the supplier to the warehouse or you can get a lorry that takes it to the rail station, which will then take it near the warehouse where you put it back on a lorry to take it to the warehouse.

And even then you'll still need a lorry to take it from the warehouse to the shops.

Take berries in the summer for example. Earlier on in the season the berries typically come from the south of the UK, as they ripen first. So your suppliers at that part of the season are typically from there. Then, as the summer goes on, the berries start to come from further and further north. By the time you're in August, your berries are coming from Scotland.

This happens for lots of food, for example.

Your walkers crisps - to keep the potatoes growing all year around, they use different potatoes in different parts of the year as they work better in different seasons, so they will get their potatoes from all different farms depending on the time of year.

Are you then going to build a railway to each one? No.


I guess this is annoying me as this is the entire premise of transport tycoon which was my gateway PC game, which I played solidly from the age of about 5 to 11.

Rail made you the most money by far (until you could get concord but that's a different story) but rail only made sense for things that didn't move about.

So passenger rail was always fraught with problems as the town population would ebb and flow so much. No problem with busses, because you could easily re-route them.

oh feck off

There are already railway lines over a huge proportion of the country and why are you focusing on home produced food? A lot of the HGV issue stories in the press seem to focus on imports of stuff. I'd assume almost every major container port has a railhead. It seems plausible to get that much of that freight from the ships onto rail and into the major distribution hubs/warehouses across the country in place of HGVs.

kingstongraham

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Right. How are you getting the stuff from wherever it is being produced, which changes all the time, to your warehouse and then from your warehouse to your shops?

You can either get a lorry that takes it from the supplier to the warehouse or you can get a lorry that takes it to the rail station, which will then take it near the warehouse where you put it back on a lorry to take it to the warehouse.

And even then you'll still need a lorry to take it from the warehouse to the shops.

Take berries in the summer for example. Earlier on in the season the berries typically come from the south of the UK, as they ripen first. So your suppliers at that part of the season are typically from there. Then, as the summer goes on, the berries start to come from further and further north. By the time you're in August, your berries are coming from Scotland.

This happens for lots of food, for example.

Your walkers crisps - to keep the potatoes growing all year around, they use different potatoes in different parts of the year as they work better in different seasons, so they will get their potatoes from all different farms depending on the time of year.

Are you then going to build a railway to each one? No.


I guess this is annoying me as this is the entire premise of transport tycoon which was my gateway PC game, which I played solidly from the age of about 5 to 11.

Rail made you the most money by far (until you could get concord but that's a different story) but rail only made sense for things that didn't move about.

So passenger rail was always fraught with problems as the town population would ebb and flow so much. No problem with busses, because you could easily re-route them.

oh censored off

There are already railway lines over a huge proportion of the country and why are you focusing on home produced food? A lot of the HGV issue stories in the press seem to focus on imports of stuff. I'd assume almost every major container port has a railhead. It seems plausible to get that much of that freight from the ships onto rail and into the major distribution hubs/warehouses across the country in place of HGVs.

I think you are missing one important point about getting the trains from the railhead at the port to the current locations of the distribution centres.

elbowloh

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

So we're decided that the solution to a short term lack of lorry drivers is to increase rail freight capacity and have all the companies reconfigure their supply chains to include rail terminals rather than road distribution centres? Sounds reasonable.

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

Why do people on here seize on one person making a suggestion to the whole board being decided on something? Hyperbole much?

Oh, i forgot, the internet.

The thread seemed to have started talking mostly about rail freight. Forgive me. Is it now up to Brexiteers to solve the climate change issue? We're doomed.

2+2=5 for you?

You say the problem with a short term supply of HGV drivers caused by Brexit is an opportunity to reconfigure the whole supply chain from road focused to rail focused, and then accuse me of making illogical connections?

This is what i said

This is a real opportunity for getting more freight on rail and making rail hubs where the lorries or smaller vehicles do the last mile

I said to take more freight from road and put it on rail, nor reconfiguring the whole supply chain. We already transport a lot of stuff by rail, we can do a lot more.

I'm not the only one who have had this thought either.

https://www.railfreight.com/railfreight/2021/09/02/uk-rail-freight-can-answer-the-truck-driver-crisis/?gdpr=accept

https://www.railfreight.com/business/2020/09/04/around-europe-premium-logistics-return-to-rail/

https://apex-insight.com/varamis-rail-could-trains-take-the-strain-off-the-hgv-driver-shortage/

elbowloh

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Right. How are you getting the stuff from wherever it is being produced, which changes all the time, to your warehouse and then from your warehouse to your shops?

You can either get a lorry that takes it from the supplier to the warehouse or you can get a lorry that takes it to the rail station, which will then take it near the warehouse where you put it back on a lorry to take it to the warehouse.

And even then you'll still need a lorry to take it from the warehouse to the shops.

Take berries in the summer for example. Earlier on in the season the berries typically come from the south of the UK, as they ripen first. So your suppliers at that part of the season are typically from there. Then, as the summer goes on, the berries start to come from further and further north. By the time you're in August, your berries are coming from Scotland.

This happens for lots of food, for example.

Your walkers crisps - to keep the potatoes growing all year around, they use different potatoes in different parts of the year as they work better in different seasons, so they will get their potatoes from all different farms depending on the time of year.

Are you then going to build a railway to each one? No.


I guess this is annoying me as this is the entire premise of transport tycoon which was my gateway PC game, which I played solidly from the age of about 5 to 11.

Rail made you the most money by far (until you could get concord but that's a different story) but rail only made sense for things that didn't move about.

So passenger rail was always fraught with problems as the town population would ebb and flow so much. No problem with busses, because you could easily re-route them.

oh censored off

There are already railway lines over a huge proportion of the country and why are you focusing on home produced food? A lot of the HGV issue stories in the press seem to focus on imports of stuff. I'd assume almost every major container port has a railhead. It seems plausible to get that much of that freight from the ships onto rail and into the major distribution hubs/warehouses across the country in place of HGVs.

I think you are missing one important point about getting the trains from the railhead at the port to the current locations of the distribution centres.

Where are those freight trains currently going to?

rick_chasey

Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.

elbowloh

rick_chasey said:

Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.

Doesn't mean they're wrong does it?

The market has a problem, the market is proposing a solution. That's how business works isn't it?

kingstongraham

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Right. How are you getting the stuff from wherever it is being produced, which changes all the time, to your warehouse and then from your warehouse to your shops?

You can either get a lorry that takes it from the supplier to the warehouse or you can get a lorry that takes it to the rail station, which will then take it near the warehouse where you put it back on a lorry to take it to the warehouse.

And even then you'll still need a lorry to take it from the warehouse to the shops.

Take berries in the summer for example. Earlier on in the season the berries typically come from the south of the UK, as they ripen first. So your suppliers at that part of the season are typically from there. Then, as the summer goes on, the berries start to come from further and further north. By the time you're in August, your berries are coming from Scotland.

This happens for lots of food, for example.

Your walkers crisps - to keep the potatoes growing all year around, they use different potatoes in different parts of the year as they work better in different seasons, so they will get their potatoes from all different farms depending on the time of year.

Are you then going to build a railway to each one? No.


I guess this is annoying me as this is the entire premise of transport tycoon which was my gateway PC game, which I played solidly from the age of about 5 to 11.

Rail made you the most money by far (until you could get concord but that's a different story) but rail only made sense for things that didn't move about.

So passenger rail was always fraught with problems as the town population would ebb and flow so much. No problem with busses, because you could easily re-route them.

oh censored off

There are already railway lines over a huge proportion of the country and why are you focusing on home produced food? A lot of the HGV issue stories in the press seem to focus on imports of stuff. I'd assume almost every major container port has a railhead. It seems plausible to get that much of that freight from the ships onto rail and into the major distribution hubs/warehouses across the country in place of HGVs.

I think you are missing one important point about getting the trains from the railhead at the port to the current locations of the distribution centres.

Where are those freight trains currently going to?

Places that already have rail connections, I'm guessing.

When I worked at a steelworks and rail freight was used as well as road, it was obviously not as flexible as road, and moved from a steel factory with a railway line running to it to either a car factory with a railway line running to it or crossdocked to road transport.

rick_chasey

Can recommend transport tycoon by the way.

Pretty sure you can get transport tycoon deluxe as a free download now.

https://www.openttd.org/

elbowloh

These are the main rail freight terminals in the UK (not every railhead, just the main terminals).

Terminals

The rail access to the Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal (DIRFT), a major intermodal terminal
Major intermodal freight terminals include:

Sea ports
Port of Bristol
Felixstowe
Port of Grangemouth
Port of Hull
Immingham
Seaforth Dock, Liverpool
Southampton
Thamesport
Tilbury
Teesport
Inland terminals
Birch Coppice near Tamworth, West Midlands
Barking Rail Freight Terminal [33]
Burton upon Trent Rail Freight Terminal
Birmingham (Lawley Street) Terminal
Coatbridge (Glasgow) Terminal
Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal, West Midlands
Doncaster Inland Port
Doncaster International Railport
Dollands Moor, Kent - for freight via the Channel Tunnel
East Midlands Gateway Rail Freight Terminal, Kegworth, Leicestershire. Near East Midlands Airport.
Hams Hall Rail Freight Terminal
Stourton (Leeds) Terminal
Liverpool Freightliner Terminal, Garston, Liverpool
Manchester Trafford Park Terminal
Sheffield International Rail Freight Terminal
Telford International Railfreight Park
Trafford Park Euroterminal
Wakefield Europort
Wembley European Freight Operations Centre
Wentloog (Cardiff) Terminal

The idea is that rail is used for trunk haulage. Get good from rail head to rail head and use lorries, trucks light vehicles for local warehousing and distribution. It already happens and takes lorries off the major motorways. It seems there is capacity to do more.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

darkhairedlord said:

rick_chasey said:

elbowloh said:

No.

This may be a short-term problem, but the long-term issue is climate change (along with road capacity and safety). The long-term solution is to get freight off the road and onto trains. We should do this anyway from a climate change point of view. I said this was a good opportunity for rail.

I don't understand this. How are you getting this stuff to warehouses and shops?

No one said the train will be used all the way to waitrose loading bay. But should be do able to local distribution centres. Its how it was until about 1970 and how it is still done in many countries Switzerland for example.

I get that but I think the whole network of suppliers means that that is actually fairly inefficient.

Hence binning it off after the 70s.

Rail freight is cheaper, greener and more reliable than road haulage i believe.

Right. How are you getting the stuff from wherever it is being produced, which changes all the time, to your warehouse and then from your warehouse to your shops?

You can either get a lorry that takes it from the supplier to the warehouse or you can get a lorry that takes it to the rail station, which will then take it near the warehouse where you put it back on a lorry to take it to the warehouse.

And even then you'll still need a lorry to take it from the warehouse to the shops.

Take berries in the summer for example. Earlier on in the season the berries typically come from the south of the UK, as they ripen first. So your suppliers at that part of the season are typically from there. Then, as the summer goes on, the berries start to come from further and further north. By the time you're in August, your berries are coming from Scotland.

This happens for lots of food, for example.

Your walkers crisps - to keep the potatoes growing all year around, they use different potatoes in different parts of the year as they work better in different seasons, so they will get their potatoes from all different farms depending on the time of year.

Are you then going to build a railway to each one? No.


I guess this is annoying me as this is the entire premise of transport tycoon which was my gateway PC game, which I played solidly from the age of about 5 to 11.

Rail made you the most money by far (until you could get concord but that's a different story) but rail only made sense for things that didn't move about.

So passenger rail was always fraught with problems as the town population would ebb and flow so much. No problem with busses, because you could easily re-route them.

oh censored off

There are already railway lines over a huge proportion of the country and why are you focusing on home produced food? A lot of the HGV issue stories in the press seem to focus on imports of stuff. I'd assume almost every major container port has a railhead. It seems plausible to get that much of that freight from the ships onto rail and into the major distribution hubs/warehouses across the country in place of HGVs.

I think you are missing one important point about getting the trains from the railhead at the port to the current locations of the distribution centres.

Where are those freight trains currently going to?

Places that already have rail connections, I'm guessing.

When I worked at a steelworks and rail freight was used as well as road, it was obviously not as flexible as road, and moved from a steel factory with a railway line running to it to either a car factory with a railway line running to it or crossdocked to road transport.

I'm pretty sure that's what Elbowloh is suggesting, I don't think anyone is suggesting that rail can completely replace road haulage but it can certainly do more of the heavy lifting for long distance haulage. I worked on a rail freight terminal that got built and another that is still in the planning process as far as I'm aware. Both are located at key road junctions where the freight can be offloaded to complete the journey by road.

elbowloh

Going back to Ricks point, Tesco and Asda already use rail freight to some capacity.

From Wikipedia:


Asda grocery goods have been moved between distribution centres in Daventry, Grangemouth and Aberdeen using Malcolm Group and Direct Rail Services since 2001.

Tesco products are moved by Stobart Rail (Direct Rail Services) from Daventry to Mossend and Inverness. The company was responsible for the longest train journey in Europe by a single operator when fresh Spanish produce was transported in a refrigerated train from Valencia to Dagenham—a 1,100 mile journey.

kingstongraham

Thank goodness for Brexit then.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.

You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.

You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.

It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.

It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.

Dorset_Boy

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.

You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.

It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.

It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.

Of course it could be done, but would need a lot of investment to put in the required infrastructure. It might not be suitable for some short life produce, but for longer life stuff, it can be done.
Did you miss the bit about the Tesco trains from the south of Spain bringing up fresh produce?

rick_chasey

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

Railfreight.com thinks rail freight is the answer. I am shaken to my core.

You seem very eager to accept the RHA's assertions on trucks being the only way to move freight. A large part of the decline of rail freight was down to the prevailing view that railways were old-fashioned and that road transport would be the way everything moved before long. Think of all those futuristic visualisations of flyovers and underpasses.

It's partly because I asked those buyers who I had over for dinner about it and they rolled their eyes and explained why, for supermarkets and food, which is where the real bottleneck is re lorries, it can't be done in a cost effective way.

It seems a lot of effort that could be solved by just rejoining the single market.

Of course it could be done, but would need a lot of investment to put in the required infrastructure. It might not be suitable for some short life produce, but for longer life stuff, it can be done.
Did you miss the bit about the Tesco trains from the south of Spain bringing up fresh produce?

No I didn't but did anyone think to check if it was cost effective to do so?

Plenty of products are being sold at a loss because of the current transport costs.

rick_chasey

I get that we are in a sort of neo victorian world where we have to rely on a few ultra rich benefactors to make interesting technological developments and blame the poor for their own poverty, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised everyone gets a hard on over rail.

My experience of rail is that it is abhorrently expensive and British rail cannot cope with any increased demand, and any attempt to improve capacity is met with shrieking nimbyism that massively increases the cost of it.