BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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The environmental and economic arguments for concentrating population in urban areas are pretty compelling.Pross said:
We aren't crowded, we lack infrastructure and housing plus have a history of attracting employment to centralised areas. That was a product of necessity when we were building around ports or raw materials for industry but, as the last 18 months have shown, large swathes of the economy can function without being centralised.morstar said:
Ok, Snowdon = poor example.rjsterry said:
Oh, FFS, there were 1hr queues for some of the rides at Chessington Work of Adventure the other week. Is that evidence for overpopulation, too?morstar said:
Couple of things.rick_chasey said:
Yes people in sh!t situations have a habit for voting for populist nonsense.morstar said:
And there you go still totally failing to grasp why some people voted for it.rick_chasey said:
It’s not even an answer to it.Jezyboy said:
So I tend to agree with the middle paragraph.morstar said:I don’t really have anything much more to add right now without repeating myself anymore than I already have so will part with this.
Where is the virtue in having a successful economy if it only benefits a minority within it?
To clarify, the minority is not especially small as I type this today but it is shrinking. The logical progression of the current trajectory of rapidly growing wealth disparity is not good. Don’t be surprised when the serfs take issue.
I just think brexit is an incredibly idiotic answer to the question.
It has nothing to do with inequality
Doesn’t mean it isn’t populist nonsense. Nor does it make it correct.
If you boil down the argument it is an iteration of blame the foreigner, which is the one thread that united the vote leave spectrum.
Either it’s the low wage immigrants or it’s the distrustful EU big wigs. Either way, the problem with them is they they’re foreign.
Unfortunately, this whole Brexit thing will only make it harder to help the people in tough spots. There will be less surplus to channel their way, less money for investment in the kinds of things that will help.
It’s a populist lie.
The irony is of course we all make out that truckies is some kind of super low paid work - it’s not that badly paid - a lot of them can afford to retire early!
I don’t like the clear racist undertones common to many Brexiteers and agree there is much populist nonsense behind it.
However, to have a less open borders policy than you espouse is almost certainly a very mainstream view.
Very few people believe in the unlimited immigration you support. I personally don’t come from a racist perspective but do find the country fairly full. As has been shown during Covid, the country is packed tight e.g. 40 minute queues at Snowdon as just one random example.
But, you also can’t dismiss it all as nonsense when one of the beliefs people had in Brexit is being proved correct with the wage increases.
Whether this is a wise outcome for the good of the nation is a very valid argument but you can’t dismiss current facts as nonsense just because you don’t like the bigger picture.
Wages have gone up as a direct result of Brexit policies. Many believed that would happen and it has.
Personally, I just thought we’d see the same immigration levels, just from different regions. Maybe we will yet.
As for Covid showing the UK to be 'fairly full', you should look at this chart.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-19-death-rate-vs-population-density
But we are a crowded land imho.
We have huge swathes of largely unpopulated land and obviously don’t compare to city states like HK but I really didn’t think it was an out there view to think of us being quite crowded.
I find the south east pretty horrific for driving around. Anyone who doesn’t has become desensitised.
It’s not some anti immigration rant. I am all for some immigration but would balk at the idea of Ricks open border policy or any other one that saw 70-80 million population being acceptable.
Unless we grow the urban areas upwards to accommodate a growing population, I’m not a fan. We have constrained housing supply and building on green belt and flood plains being considered normal.
Whether we want to give up those huge swathes of green land to housing (and whether we should when the environment is so critical) is another matter.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the overcrowding bit. It’s clearly a personal view.
I don’t for one second deny that more people could fit.
I wouldn’t want to give up the countryside to do it and if the cities are to not sprawl they need to go upwards.
Where do they all go at the weekend for leisure? It’s not just my narrow Snowdon example where parking is problematic and everywhere is busy.
I personally like space.0 -
Just pointing out what isn't possible.kingstongraham said:"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Yet, Frost is making speeches about undoing the damage his agreement has done.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Well planned, large, modern developments have some really good areas of public open space, play areas etc. The problem is everyone kicks up about large developments because there is a "lack of infrastructure" even though they usually come with new schools, medical centres and local shops so we end up with lots of small to medium developments that don't bring any of that and instead lead to S106 contributions that hopefully allow them to be provided later when the pot is big enough.morstar said:We’ll have to agree to disagree on the overcrowding bit. It’s clearly a personal view.
I don’t for one second deny that more people could fit.
I wouldn’t want to give up the countryside to do it and if the cities are to not sprawl they need to go upwards.
Where do they all go at the weekend for leisure? It’s not just my narrow Snowdon example where parking is problematic and everywhere is busy.
I personally like space.0 -
Thanks for your valuable insight.Stevo_666 said:
Just pointing out what isn't possible.kingstongraham said:0 -
I guess you have to view it as follows.
Either we can accommodate infinite people or we can’t.
Assuming we all agree we can’t accommodate infinite people, the definition of overcrowded is subjective.
I personally think we’re more crowded than I would like.
Trains are busy, roads are busy, the countryside is busy, shopping centres are busy, leisure destinations are busy. Busy, busy, busy. A well served and designed development still has more people loading up the things to do and the places to go surrounding it.
Like I say, we’ll agree to disagree. Nobody is going to convince me I wouldn’t like to live in a less populated country. Although I accept that’s not the world I was born into and won’t blame any easy target for that. It’s a global problem after all. If we looked at population numbers objectively, we’d have a cull.
But I didn’t vote Brexit. If we are going to be crowded, I’m quite happy for a diverse mix of people to make up those crowds.
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Insert the word "some" in front of all of your examples of places being busy.morstar said:I guess you have to view it as follows.
Either we can accommodate infinite people or we can’t.
Assuming we all agree we can’t accommodate infinite people, the definition of overcrowded is subjective.
I personally think we’re more crowded than I would like.
Trains are busy, roads are busy, the countryside is busy, shopping centres are busy, leisure destinations are busy. Busy, busy, busy. A well served and designed development still has more people loading up the things to do and the places to go surrounding it.
Like I say, we’ll agree to disagree. Nobody is going to convince me I wouldn’t like to live in a less populated country. Although I accept that’s not the world I was born into and won’t blame any easy target for that. It’s a global problem after all. If we looked at population numbers objectively, we’d have a cull.
But I didn’t vote Brexit. If we are going to be crowded, I’m quite happy for a diverse mix of people to make up those crowds.
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On that basis, I guess Antarctica is quiet.elbowloh said:
Insert the word "some" in front of all of your examples of places being busy.morstar said:I guess you have to view it as follows.
Either we can accommodate infinite people or we can’t.
Assuming we all agree we can’t accommodate infinite people, the definition of overcrowded is subjective.
I personally think we’re more crowded than I would like.
Trains are busy, roads are busy, the countryside is busy, shopping centres are busy, leisure destinations are busy. Busy, busy, busy. A well served and designed development still has more people loading up the things to do and the places to go surrounding it.
Like I say, we’ll agree to disagree. Nobody is going to convince me I wouldn’t like to live in a less populated country. Although I accept that’s not the world I was born into and won’t blame any easy target for that. It’s a global problem after all. If we looked at population numbers objectively, we’d have a cull.
But I didn’t vote Brexit. If we are going to be crowded, I’m quite happy for a diverse mix of people to make up those crowds.
Don’t get me wrong, if I go somewhere busy, I’m as much a part of the problem as anybody else. Plus me and the mrs have 3 kids so I get the hypocrisy.
But the world and the uk are both over populated with people imho.
There’s also a cost to developing more land beyond simply satisfying human needs. I think that’s quite apparent in this day and age.0 -
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It's Pango who should be thanking me as he said that Ricks idea of not doing Brexit was an idea with merits.kingstongraham said:
Thanks for your valuable insight.Stevo_666 said:
Just pointing out what isn't possible.kingstongraham said:"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
So you are criticising Rick for coming up with an illogical solution that he didn't come up with? Makes sense.Stevo_666 said:
It's Pango who should be thanking me as he said that Ricks idea of not doing Brexit was an idea with merits.kingstongraham said:
Thanks for your valuable insight.Stevo_666 said:
Just pointing out what isn't possible.kingstongraham said:
Got any suggestions of your own, or just going to snipe, like me?0 -
There aren't infinite people, let alone infinite people who want to come here.morstar said:I guess you have to view it as follows.
Either we can accommodate infinite people or we can’t.
Assuming we all agree we can’t accommodate infinite people, the definition of overcrowded is subjective.
I personally think we’re more crowded than I would like.
Trains are busy, roads are busy, the countryside is busy, shopping centres are busy, leisure destinations are busy. Busy, busy, busy. A well served and designed development still has more people loading up the things to do and the places to go surrounding it.
Like I say, we’ll agree to disagree. Nobody is going to convince me I wouldn’t like to live in a less populated country. Although I accept that’s not the world I was born into and won’t blame any easy target for that. It’s a global problem after all. If we looked at population numbers objectively, we’d have a cull.
But I didn’t vote Brexit. If we are going to be crowded, I’m quite happy for a diverse mix of people to make up those crowds.
"Nobody is going to convince me I wouldn’t like to live in a less populated country."
There are plenty of objectively quiet places in the UK. Why not live in one? Serious question. I imagine it's at least partly because you enjoy living around the useful things that tend to come with more people.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
This is so back to front I'm genuinely slightly concerned. Trains are currently so not busy that the government is having to step in and subsidise them (even more) to stop them going bust GTR have started cutting services because they are running nearly empty. Shopping centres are full of empty units precisely because they are not busy enough and businesses can't stay afloat. Busy is a good thing. I don't know what kind of world it is you want where all the benefits of modern civilisation are provided but there is just you and presumably immediate family using them?morstar said:I guess you have to view it as follows.
Either we can accommodate infinite people or we can’t.
Assuming we all agree we can’t accommodate infinite people, the definition of overcrowded is subjective.
I personally think we’re more crowded than I would like.
Trains are busy, roads are busy, the countryside is busy, shopping centres are busy, leisure destinations are busy. Busy, busy, busy. A well served and designed development still has more people loading up the things to do and the places to go surrounding it.
Like I say, we’ll agree to disagree. Nobody is going to convince me I wouldn’t like to live in a less populated country. Although I accept that’s not the world I was born into and won’t blame any easy target for that. It’s a global problem after all. If we looked at population numbers objectively, we’d have a cull.
But I didn’t vote Brexit. If we are going to be crowded, I’m quite happy for a diverse mix of people to make up those crowds.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I'm currently on holiday in Skye. It is very quiet. It is also 14 degrees, wet and windy.pangolin said:
There are plenty of objectively quiet places in the UK. Why not live in one? Serious question. I imagine it's at least partly because you enjoy living around the useful things that tend to come with more people.
My bike may not get assembled. There are reasons places are quiet.
Food was good though. 😉
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
Flicking between this thread and the 'Thatcher was great because she smashed the unions creating a flexible workforce which grew the economy' thread
Are you all ok?
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!1 -
You could interpret it that way if you wanted to.rjsterry said:
This is so back to front I'm genuinely slightly concerned. Trains are currently so not busy that the government is having to step in and subsidise them (even more) to stop them going bust GTR have started cutting services because they are running nearly empty. Shopping centres are full of empty units precisely because they are not busy enough and businesses can't stay afloat. Busy is a good thing. I don't know what kind of world it is you want where all the benefits of modern civilisation are provided but there is just you and presumably immediate family using them?morstar said:I guess you have to view it as follows.
Either we can accommodate infinite people or we can’t.
Assuming we all agree we can’t accommodate infinite people, the definition of overcrowded is subjective.
I personally think we’re more crowded than I would like.
Trains are busy, roads are busy, the countryside is busy, shopping centres are busy, leisure destinations are busy. Busy, busy, busy. A well served and designed development still has more people loading up the things to do and the places to go surrounding it.
Like I say, we’ll agree to disagree. Nobody is going to convince me I wouldn’t like to live in a less populated country. Although I accept that’s not the world I was born into and won’t blame any easy target for that. It’s a global problem after all. If we looked at population numbers objectively, we’d have a cull.
But I didn’t vote Brexit. If we are going to be crowded, I’m quite happy for a diverse mix of people to make up those crowds.
You’d be wrong.
Talk about deliberate misinterpretation.
Saying I think the country is overpopulated = wanting to live like a hermit but still have all the mod cons of 2021. Yes of course.0 -
Do none of you realise that an economy scales to the size of the population?
I’m not saying we should have a cull and expect all the same infrastructure to remain in place.
I do live in a relatively quiet place. It has a good balance between modern convenience without being a massive urban centre.
Listening to you lot enjoy making out I’m stupid while making straw men arguments, you’re all suggesting that the world can’t function with less people in it. I wonder how we ever got here.1 -
"We can't accommodate infinite people"
"You guys are making straw men arguments"
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono1 -
Ok got me.pangolin said:"We can't accommodate infinite people"
"You guys are making straw men arguments"
But to take the arguments being made, no amount possible is too many it seems.
I know not everyone wants to live here but there’s 7bn on the planet.
I’d guess we could quite easily get to 100-200 million that would quite happily give it a go.
FFS, it’s a really weird conversation. I’m not actually arguing for population reduction, just saying I find the country fuller than I think would be optimum. It’s hardly an extreme view.
It’s on a par with being stuck in traffic and thinking it’d be nice if the roads were less busy. Really not too sure what point everybody thinks they’re proving by rallying against such an innocuous opinion.
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What people are also missing is that outside office blocks in the centres of cities the UK is not set up for high density living. To do what people are advocating you would have to start buying people's houses through forced purchases and then build 10 plus storey buildings. Can't see many voting for this but I can see a lot voting for the status quo with limits on population increases and economic strategies to stop them all living in the South East.morstar said:
Ok got me.pangolin said:"We can't accommodate infinite people"
"You guys are making straw men arguments"
But to take the arguments being made, no amount possible is too many it seems.
I know not everyone wants to live here but there’s 7bn on the planet.
I’d guess we could quite easily get to 100-200 million that would quite happily give it a go.
FFS, it’s a really weird conversation. I’m not actually arguing for population reduction, just saying I find the country fuller than I think would be optimum. It’s hardly an extreme view.
It’s on a par with being stuck in traffic and thinking it’d be nice if the roads were less busy. Really not too sure what point everybody thinks they’re proving by rallying against such an innocuous opinion.
As an aside the northern sections of the M6 is not a traffic jam for most of the day now which was not the case 20 years ago. This is due to people building houses and industry along this route. Now we are all having electric vehicles what is the argument for not building more roads.0 -
Funny how this has become all about immigration again isn't it?0
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Brexit was always about immigration first and foremost.
It was occasionally dressed up differently, but when push comes to shove, foreigners.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
FWIW, my comments are fuck all to do with foreigners.
Simply a capacity comment and not one I have made any policy suggestions to support.
As I say, there will be no population reduction scheme and it is no different to thinking, ooh, I wish ‘x’ knowing it won’t happen.0 -
You literally said you had 3 kids. It can't be a major concern.morstar said:FWIW, my comments are censored all to do with foreigners.
Simply a capacity comment and not one I have made any policy suggestions to support.
As I say, there will be no population reduction scheme and it is no different to thinking, ooh, I wish ‘x’ knowing it won’t happen.0 -
So the straw man is up to a population of 200 million and compulsory purchases of our houses0
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Lots of houses being built in the greater BCP area. Mostly to accommodate those pesky London commuters that no longer have to travel into the city for work. I blame MS Teams.
Keep away you skinny macchiato lovers.Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
I'm surprised anything gets built in BCP. I had some dialogue with a person there who seemed helpful at first but has now failed to answer a simple question for 5 weeks despite repeat chasing which is stopping anything being designed let alone built (education scheme not housing).mr_goo said:Lots of houses being built in the greater BCP area. Mostly to accommodate those pesky London commuters that no longer have to travel into the city for work. I blame MS Teams.
Keep away you skinny macchiato lovers.0 -
I think the difficulty some are having is that your assessment seems to hinge entirely on just a personal feeling that the country is too crowded because you occasionally get held up in traffic. We have recently seen what less busy looks like, with the lockdowns and it was disastrous for lots of people.morstar said:
Ok got me.pangolin said:"We can't accommodate infinite people"
"You guys are making straw men arguments"
But to take the arguments being made, no amount possible is too many it seems.
I know not everyone wants to live here but there’s 7bn on the planet.
I’d guess we could quite easily get to 100-200 million that would quite happily give it a go.
FFS, it’s a really weird conversation. I’m not actually arguing for population reduction, just saying I find the country fuller than I think would be optimum. It’s hardly an extreme view.
It’s on a par with being stuck in traffic and thinking it’d be nice if the roads were less busy. Really not too sure what point everybody thinks they’re proving by rallying against such an innocuous opinion.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Don't get me wrong I drove the length of the A14 yesterday and it was pretty rural with plenty of fields. Just get them bulldozed and build houses and a few extra roads and all the other public services and you will be sorted. I wonder how all those people will feel about food security and relying on other countries for food supplies should anything such as global warming affect any of this. All that countryside does seem like space wasted where a shiny new housing estate could be.rjsterry said:
I think the difficulty some are having is that your assessment seems to hinge entirely on just a personal feeling that the country is too crowded because you occasionally get held up in traffic. We have recently seen what less busy looks like, with the lockdowns and it was disastrous for lots of people.morstar said:
Ok got me.pangolin said:"We can't accommodate infinite people"
"You guys are making straw men arguments"
But to take the arguments being made, no amount possible is too many it seems.
I know not everyone wants to live here but there’s 7bn on the planet.
I’d guess we could quite easily get to 100-200 million that would quite happily give it a go.
FFS, it’s a really weird conversation. I’m not actually arguing for population reduction, just saying I find the country fuller than I think would be optimum. It’s hardly an extreme view.
It’s on a par with being stuck in traffic and thinking it’d be nice if the roads were less busy. Really not too sure what point everybody thinks they’re proving by rallying against such an innocuous opinion.0
