BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Mamba, you said you will vote IN because the EU is getting to grips with the migrant issue.
Can you please let me know which news outlets you have, because it doesn't appear that way to me.
As I have said earlier, if I were France, I'd do the same

Well, for starters they have got NATO to help patrol Aegean, no more ALL WELCOME speeches, indeed the opposite, massive increase in aid budget to Turkey....
but the bottom line Bally, is what can anyone really do when millions of people head to any countries borders? R4 today, the guy said that only syrians will be allowed into EU and he reckoned that would cause riots in Greece and else where, same result if we try and ship back non Syrians to Turkey etc, even if Turkey would allow their return - so how do we put down those riots? even the Chinese found crowd control difficult and they used summary executions and tanks, methods that wont be used in Greece or anywhere else in EU.

i see ian duncan smith and Tebbit are now saying "if leaving EU is going to be so bad, why did DC call a vote, risking the nations well being" exactly what i said a while back, can any Tory supporters explain this rational to me?

My gut feeling is to stay in but if we dont start hearing the positives of EU membership, i might vote OUT !!![/quote]

Duncan Smith and Tebbit were merely mocking the so called scare stories emanating from the IN camp, that's all.

Mamba, you have bemoaned the decision to hold a referendum as showing weak leadership. Would you feel the same if the PM of the day had just declared that he was going to take us out of the EU?

You do seem to be decided to vote IN, but the fact that you are still searching for the benefits of membership is quite telling.

mamba80

No, the question hasnt really been asked, its been negativity and a focus on migration.
tebbit etc are not mocking the referendum, they are telling the truth.... if the perils of leaving EU are so bad, then why leave it to joe public down the pub to decide? unless of course it was very short termism to get ukip votes and win a GE?

to me staying in Eu is about trying to be european instead of facing towards the USA (esp if Trump gets in) trade advantages, travel, collective voice...some times! enviromental control..look at recycle rates across EU and ours? far closer than say 20y ago, HS, employment rights -
what about the turmoil in china? is this the time to pee off europe and head out on our own?
the immigration crisis wont be solved by UK pulling up the draw bridge, we can see that in Greece right now - for all those that say EU isnt doing anything about this crisis, i dont hear those same people saying what they or eu should do.

Leadership? had Cameron gone into the GE with a promise to leave EU in June 2016, then fine... but he didnt because he would have torn his party apart and probably lost the GE, so Trident is a very divisive issue too, he said we r renewing Trident, he didnt say we ll have a referendum did he?
you need to realise why he called the eu referendum, it was politically expedite to do so and like most politicians he didnt think longer term.

priory

''if the perils of leaving EU are so bad, then why leave it to joe public down the pub to decide? ''

I wonder if joe will be frightened by the german finance minister threatening ''no free trade agreement unless britain accepts open borders' I rather feel that germany is making it clear it will be exerting its power over us in or out even if it costs them and their dominions. Perhaps they are not our best mates after all.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Leadership? had Cameron gone into the GE with a promise to leave EU in June 2016, then fine... but he didnt because he would have torn his party apart and probably lost the GE, so Trident is a very divisive issue too, he said we r renewing Trident, he didnt say we ll have a referendum did he?
you need to realise why he called the eu referendum, it was politically expedite to do so and like most politicians he didnt think longer term.

The Tories were elected on an explicit mandate to hold this referendum. We had the opportunity to say whether we wanted a say.

Apart from that, it is not the first one. The Labour govt led by Harold Wilson held a referendum on (EEC) membership in 1975. This may be something that other countries find themselves under pressure to do from their electorate in future. Fair play to Cameron for offering it.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Leadership? had Cameron gone into the GE with a promise to leave EU in June 2016, then fine... but he didnt because he would have torn his party apart and probably lost the GE, so Trident is a very divisive issue too, he said we r renewing Trident, he didnt say we ll have a referendum did he?
you need to realise why he called the eu referendum, it was politically expedite to do so and like most politicians he didnt think longer term.

The Tories were elected on an explicit mandate to hold this referendum. We had the opportunity to say whether we wanted a say.

Apart from that, it is not the first one. The Labour govt led by Harold Wilson held a referendum on (EEC) membership in 1975. This may be something that other countries find themselves under pressure to do from their electorate in future. Fair play to Cameron for offering it.

Said before. We both know that was the first thing to be traded away in the event of the (apparently likely) coalition.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Leadership? had Cameron gone into the GE with a promise to leave EU in June 2016, then fine... but he didnt because he would have torn his party apart and probably lost the GE, so Trident is a very divisive issue too, he said we r renewing Trident, he didnt say we ll have a referendum did he?
you need to realise why he called the eu referendum, it was politically expedite to do so and like most politicians he didnt think longer term.

The Tories were elected on an explicit mandate to hold this referendum. We had the opportunity to say whether we wanted a say.

Apart from that, it is not the first one. The Labour govt led by Harold Wilson held a referendum on (EEC) membership in 1975. This may be something that other countries find themselves under pressure to do from their electorate in future. Fair play to Cameron for offering it.

Said before. We both know that was the first thing to be traded away in the event of the (apparently likely) coalition.

But it hasnt been traded away because it is happening. Or am I missing something?

Lookyhere

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Leadership? had Cameron gone into the GE with a promise to leave EU in June 2016, then fine... but he didnt because he would have torn his party apart and probably lost the GE, so Trident is a very divisive issue too, he said we r renewing Trident, he didnt say we ll have a referendum did he?
you need to realise why he called the eu referendum, it was politically expedite to do so and like most politicians he didnt think longer term.

The Tories were elected on an explicit mandate to hold this referendum. We had the opportunity to say whether we wanted a say.

Apart from that, it is not the first one. The Labour govt led by Harold Wilson held a referendum on (EEC) membership in 1975. This may be something that other countries find themselves under pressure to do from their electorate in future. Fair play to Cameron for offering it.

Doesnt make sense, if the prospect of leaving EU is going to be so disastrous for the UK and everyone ( Gov policy IN) from Cameron, Osbourne, to civil servants business leaders etc are saying so, then why on earth would a responsible PM risk the nations future well being?
He may have put the referendum in the manifesto BUT he didnt have all the negatives in there as well did he.

Stevo_666

Lookyhere wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Leadership? had Cameron gone into the GE with a promise to leave EU in June 2016, then fine... but he didnt because he would have torn his party apart and probably lost the GE, so Trident is a very divisive issue too, he said we r renewing Trident, he didnt say we ll have a referendum did he?
you need to realise why he called the eu referendum, it was politically expedite to do so and like most politicians he didnt think longer term.

The Tories were elected on an explicit mandate to hold this referendum. We had the opportunity to say whether we wanted a say.

Apart from that, it is not the first one. The Labour govt led by Harold Wilson held a referendum on (EEC) membership in 1975. This may be something that other countries find themselves under pressure to do from their electorate in future. Fair play to Cameron for offering it.

Doesnt make sense, if the prospect of leaving EU is going to be so disastrous for the UK and everyone ( Gov policy IN) from Cameron, Osbourne, to civil servants business leaders etc are saying so, then why on earth would a responsible PM risk the nations future well being?
He may have put the referendum in the manifesto BUT he didnt have all the negatives in there as well did he.

And now is the time to debate the pros and cons of each. The manifesto was simply statimg that they wanted us to have choice, not the time to actually make the choice.

Of course now campaigning has started each side will make their case to persuade voters.

mr_goo

Here we go. Current standings on whether we're in or out.
This is from YouGov surveys. Who seem to be taking a 'Remain In' stance, judging by their veiled wording in the survey.

orraloon

Cumbria most Eurosceptic? Wtf?

(Oh, and seems like Shetland has already gone, back to Norway?)

rick_chasey

There's a fairly clear positive correlation with the level of education and the level of Europhilia. Combine that base with the local experience of immigration and you get pretty much exactly what that UK map says.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

There's a fairly clear positive correlation with the level of education and the level of Europhilia. Combine that base with the local experience of immigration and you get pretty much exactly what that UK map says.

?????

rick_chasey

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/mind-gap

rick_chasey

It's not surprising. Those with higher levels of education typically do not see lower skilled immigration as a threat than those with lower levels of education.

My parents love how fast and efficient their local polish builders are. I doubt the local Brit builders have the same view....

mr_goo

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's not surprising. Those with higher levels of education typically do not see lower skilled immigration as a threat than those with lower levels of education.

My parents love how fast and efficient their local polish builders are. I doubt the local Brit builders have the same view....

Or. Looking at the London map, one could say the Metro centric city folk in the ' W ' prefixed postcodes like the fact they can refurbish their houses for less, probably on an annual basis too.

ballysmate

From your link Rick

Note that the most Europhile areas include places with lots of experience of immigration (Lambeth, Southampton) and fairly little (the Scottish Highlands, the Wirral). The most Eurosceptic places are similarly varied: from relatively monocultural Cumbria and Somerset to Lincolnshire and Peterborough with their many eastern European newcomers.

The author seems to acknowledge that experience of immigration is not necessarily the overwhelming factor in determining the extent of a region's Europhilia.

rick_chasey

Well yeah. Cos of the education innit.

mr_goo

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's not surprising. Those with higher levels of education typically do not see lower skilled immigration as a threat than those with lower levels of education.

My parents love how fast and efficient their local polish builders are. I doubt the local Brit builders have the same view....

I think your wording should read. Those with higher levels of INCOME typically do not see lower skilled immigration as a threat than those with lower levels of INCOME.

This in the main, because they will be living in areas where immigrants are unlikely to affect their immediate environment other than working in the wine bars or coffee shops. They will not see their health service affected as they will in the main be attending private clinics and hospitals. The education of Tarquin and Mercedes will not be affected as they will be at a lovely private school.

Where as those who have to turn a pound in order to keep their heads above water and who you clearly see as having no brain due to their inferior level of education, see their neighbourhoods blighted. Their health service on its knees. And the education system screwed as its trying to pander to about 50 different languages and ethnicities.

rick_chasey

Meh cause or effect.

I think the evidence is stronger for education than it is for income. I'm informed mainly by that blog and from some friends who work for yougov.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Well yeah. Cos of the education innit.

Oh I see. The people of Mid Wales are obviously better educated than Cumbrians then?

rick_chasey

Did you read the whole article?

mr_goo

Ballysmate wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Well yeah. Cos of the education innit.

Oh I see. The people of Mid Wales are obviously better educated than Cumbrians then?

Bally, The Scottish population are clearly better educated than the rest of us Neanderthals in England because they get free University education which you and I are subsidising. Whilst we have to scrimp and save to send our kids to Uni, unless you are in the green shaded wealthy demographic of West London sipping Pimms in the Summertime. Plus Scotland is clearly gearing up to leave the UK should the vote go in favour of leaving EU. Bagpipes and begging bowls at the ready to do some busking in Brussels.

We need a referendum in England. Do we want Scotland to remain part of the UK?

orraloon

From Rathbones Investment Management. 5 'Brexit' myths that investors need to understand.

http://www.trustnet.com/News/655957/fiv ... i=27088020

The suits are getting rightly nervous that 'The Sun' type of nonsense is getting in the way of some hard facts. Mind you, Sun 'readers' tend to look at the pictures only...

earth

If we leave can get get rid of those German markets at Christmas?

surrey_commuter

Mr Goo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's not surprising. Those with higher levels of education typically do not see lower skilled immigration as a threat than those with lower levels of education.

My parents love how fast and efficient their local polish builders are. I doubt the local Brit builders have the same view....

I think your wording should read. Those with higher levels of INCOME typically do not see lower skilled immigration as a threat than those with lower levels of INCOME.

This in the main, because they will be living in areas where immigrants are unlikely to affect their immediate environment other than working in the wine bars or coffee shops. They will not see their health service affected as they will in the main be attending private clinics and hospitals. The education of Tarquin and Mercedes will not be affected as they will be at a lovely private school.

Where as those who have to turn a pound in order to keep their heads above water and who you clearly see as having no brain due to their inferior level of education, see their neighbourhoods blighted. Their health service on its knees. And the education system screwed as its trying to pander to about 50 different languages and ethnicities.

in london the opposite is true, without migrant workers the Nhs would collapse. And no his wording is correct that the biggest determinant is education. A plumber is less well educated than a teacher but earns more money - which one has a greater fear of east european migrants?

pblakeney

Surrey Commuter wrote:

in london the opposite is true, without migrant workers the Nhs would collapse. And no his wording is correct that the biggest determinant is education. A plumber is less well educated than a teacher but earns more money - which one has a greater fear of east european migrants?

It could be argued that the smart person would become a plumber.

rick_chasey

You're confusing smart will well educated.

Not the same.

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

You're confusing smart will well educated.

Not the same.

Why would a well educated person choose a job with higher stress, higher responsibility and lower wages?
I was recently asked why don't I become a teacher as there is a shortage. No chance, I'd rather be a plumber any day.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

You're confusing smart will well educated.

Not the same.

A smart person can work things out for themselves, an educated person has been given information and ideas by others.
I see a highly educated person like yourself knew this already.

mr_goo

I do love a good meme. Not seen this one before. But am sure the sentiment will influence plenty to vote out.