BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Yeah.

    Shame that child hadn't read the study into that exact issue which found it had no noticeable impact on immigration levels.

    Also a shame the child doesn't understand purchasing power parity either.
    _
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Yeah.

    Shame that child hadn't read the study into that exact issue which found it had no noticeable impact on immigration levels.

    Also a shame the child doesn't understand purchasing power parity either.

    Have you a link to that, please Rick?

    If I was thinking of moving abroad to a better life, the money I could earn in a particular country would be a major factor in my choice of destination.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    62188816.jpg
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Go google Lord green and benefit tourism. Or just "benefit tourism".

    Lord Green set up Migrarion watch UK.

    Availability of jobs is #1 driver for migration to the UK. Makes sense. Most people don't want to live off social security. Most people want better paid jobs. You lot all do, right?

    I get the logic used by the 9 yr old (presumably parroting her parents...) but it's worth looking at the evidence too. Evidence doesn't stack up.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 02326.html
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    finchy wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Perhaps if the subsidies were removed, we would all have to pay a realistic price for food and the amount of waste would be slashed.

    Excellent point. I've never really thought of it that way before.

    They subsidise farmers not consumers. If you remove them then profits for big farmers (think wealthy landowners) would decrease.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Yeah.

    Shame that child hadn't read the study into that exact issue which found it had no noticeable impact on immigration levels.

    Also a shame the child doesn't understand purchasing power parity either.

    Have you a link to that, please Rick?

    If I was thinking of moving abroad to a better life, the money I could earn in a particular country would be a major factor in my choice of destination.


    You could take a job in India for half of your current salary and still have a better standard of living. Likewise you could get a 50% payrise to work in Switzerland and be worse off.

    The Big Mac Index explains this better
    http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/minister-admits-david-cameron-has-no-factual-evidence-to-prove-benefit-tourism-causes-mass-eu-a6802326.html

    The article refers to benefit tourism and if as you assert, benefits are not the prime incentive for immigration, (I don't necessarily disagree btw), then it must be the availability of a higher wage. That was the point the young lady was making. The higher the wage, the greater the incentive.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Oh sure. But given PPP I'd suggest it's more to do with the availability of jobs full stop.
    _
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Yeah.

    Shame that child hadn't read the study into that exact issue which found it had no noticeable impact on immigration levels.

    Also a shame the child doesn't understand purchasing power parity either.

    Have you a link to that, please Rick?

    If I was thinking of moving abroad to a better life, the money I could earn in a particular country would be a major factor in my choice of destination.


    You could take a job in India for half of your current salary and still have a better standard of living. Likewise you could get a 50% payrise to work in Switzerland and be worse off.

    The Big Mac Index explains this better
    http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index

    Yes true. Economic migrants go to their destination of choice to achieve a better standard of living. Increasing the minimum/living wage can only increase the incentive.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet on this thread and cannot recall anything in the press.

    What if the OUT vote wins by one percent? Will Cameron declare that it's an insufficient winning margin on which to decide the fate of the nation.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    Mr Goo wrote:
    I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet on this thread and cannot recall anything in the press.

    What if the OUT vote wins by one percent? Will Cameron declare that it's an insufficient winning margin on which to decide the fate of the nation.
    I don't think so.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    the French Government are now saying the deal in which UK border is on the french side, would possibly be revoked.
    Obvious really, why would they?

    good point by Mr Goo, a small winning margin by either side would just keep the running sore that is EU running and running.
    Maybe DC would do an Ireland and keep having a vote until he gets what he wants? after all, he has form for changing his mind .... or lying :)
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Mamba, you said you will vote IN because the EU is getting to grips with the migrant issue.
    Can you please let me know which news outlets you have, because it doesn't appear that way to me.
    As I have said earlier, if I were France, I'd do the same.

    I see Switzerland has made the symbolic decision to withdraw its application to join the EU.
    Is the EU project dying on its ar5e anyway? Migration is helping to kill it. Schengen is dead, Greece seems to have been shafted. Suffering the consequences of the Euro fudge, making it one of the poorer nations, it has been offered a paltry 700m to deal with the crisis.
    Razor wire curtain across central Europe.

    How many years until the EU blows itself apart?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet on this thread and cannot recall anything in the press.

    What if the OUT vote wins by one percent? Will Cameron declare that it's an insufficient winning margin on which to decide the fate of the nation.
    I don't think so.

    IMO - if we vote out by any margin then we will be out. If we vote in by any margin then the obsessives in the out camp will gird their loins and start again. The interesting point will be if the UK votes out but the Scots vote in.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Mamba, you said you will vote IN because the EU is getting to grips with the migrant issue.
    Can you please let me know which news outlets you have, because it doesn't appear that way to me.
    As I have said earlier, if I were France, I'd do the same.

    I see Switzerland has made the symbolic decision to withdraw its application to join the EU.
    Is the EU project dying on its ar5e anyway? Migration is helping to kill it. Schengen is dead, Greece seems to have been shafted. Suffering the consequences of the Euro fudge, making it one of the poorer nations, it has been offered a paltry 700m to deal with the crisis.
    Razor wire curtain across central Europe.

    How many years until the EU blows itself apart?

    EU will evolve rather than blow itself apart. Not sure there is any good solution to the migrant issue but is probably best to tackle it as a continent than individual countries.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    28 or perhaps 27 countries are too many with wide disparity. Cracks are appearing already. The EU got too big too quickly, artificially increasing in size instead of growing naturally.
    Perhaps in years to come it will go supernova and leave a core of like minded trading partners...A bit like the Common Market really.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet on this thread and cannot recall anything in the press.

    What if the OUT vote wins by one percent? Will Cameron declare that it's an insufficient winning margin on which to decide the fate of the nation.
    I don't think so.

    IMO - if we vote out by any margin then we will be out. If we vote in by any margin then the obsessives in the out camp will gird their loins and start again. The interesting point will be if the UK votes out but the Scots vote in.

    Only in the mind of Wee Nippy, the Fish.
    If the SNP can convince Westminster that it is grounds for a new referendum in Scotland, the same questions would arise.
    Currency, lender of last resort, not to mention oil being $30/barrel. Would they be admitted to the EU given that Spain and possibly Belgium would veto?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet on this thread and cannot recall anything in the press.

    What if the OUT vote wins by one percent? Will Cameron declare that it's an insufficient winning margin on which to decide the fate of the nation.
    I don't think so.

    IMO - if we vote out by any margin then we will be out. If we vote in by any margin then the obsessives in the out camp will gird their loins and start again. The interesting point will be if the UK votes out but the Scots vote in.

    Only in the mind of Wee Nippy, the Fish.
    If the SNP can convince Westminster that it is grounds for a new referendum in Scotland, the same questions would arise.
    Currency, lender of last resort, not to mention oil being $30/barrel. Would they be admitted to the EU given that Spain and possibly Belgium would veto?

    I was more making the point that the issue will not go away. Cameron must have known this when he agreed to a referendum so why of why did he do it?

    I agree with all of your points about why it would not happen but I imagine they would try and claim that they are staying rather than joining.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Ballysmate wrote:
    28 or perhaps 27 countries are too many with wide disparity. Cracks are appearing already. The EU got too big too quickly, artificially increasing in size instead of growing naturally.
    Perhaps in years to come it will go supernova and leave a core of like minded trading partners...A bit like the Common Market really.


    I would count that as the EU evolving
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    28 or perhaps 27 countries are too many with wide disparity. Cracks are appearing already. The EU got too big too quickly, artificially increasing in size instead of growing naturally.
    Perhaps in years to come it will go supernova and leave a core of like minded trading partners...A bit like the Common Market really.


    I would count that as the EU evolving
    Maybe more revolution than evolution, but I take your point.

    I am currently minded to vote 'in' for similar reasons as Bally and a couple of others gave previously - recognising that we are in a badly flawed club but on balance we may make it worse by leaving. Looking at this with my business hat on as well, this where I am coming out overall. That said, if we do stay in we still need to agitate like hell for change and also hope that the fundamental pressures on the EU cause a revolution/evolution of the type above. It will also annoy the French :)

    However it's still a while to go and I am keeping an open mind.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    If the Tories didn't split on the issue would you still be undecided.

    I get the impression you're often swayed by what they say.
    _
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    mamba80 wrote:
    the French Government are now saying the deal in which UK border is on the french side, would possibly be revoked.
    Obvious really, why would they?

    good point by Mr Goo, a small winning margin by either side would just keep the running sore that is EU running and running.
    Maybe DC would do an Ireland and keep having a vote until he gets what he wants? after all, he has form for changing his mind .... or lying :)

    A different slant on it.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... he-EU.html
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Ballysmate wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    the French Government are now saying the deal in which UK border is on the french side, would possibly be revoked.
    Obvious really, why would they?

    good point by Mr Goo, a small winning margin by either side would just keep the running sore that is EU running and running.
    Maybe DC would do an Ireland and keep having a vote until he gets what he wants? after all, he has form for changing his mind .... or lying :)

    A different slant on it.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... he-EU.html

    There will be many people in France and the rest of the EU who would be delighted to see us leave. They see us as a brake on progress and if we don't like the point of the club the get out and leave the others to achieve what they want.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    If the Tories didn't split on the issue would you still be undecided.

    I get the impression you're often swayed by what they say.
    Yes to the first point.

    No to the second. I make my own mind up.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    the French Government are now saying the deal in which UK border is on the french side, would possibly be revoked.
    Obvious really, why would they?

    good point by Mr Goo, a small winning margin by either side would just keep the running sore that is EU running and running.
    Maybe DC would do an Ireland and keep having a vote until he gets what he wants? after all, he has form for changing his mind .... or lying :)

    A different slant on it.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... he-EU.html

    There will be many people in France and the rest of the EU who would be delighted to see us leave. They see us as a brake on progress and if we don't like the point of the club the get out and leave the others to achieve what they want.

    Depends on your definition of progress doesn't it?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    the French Government are now saying the deal in which UK border is on the french side, would possibly be revoked.
    Obvious really, why would they?

    good point by Mr Goo, a small winning margin by either side would just keep the running sore that is EU running and running.
    Maybe DC would do an Ireland and keep having a vote until he gets what he wants? after all, he has form for changing his mind .... or lying :)

    A different slant on it.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... he-EU.html

    There will be many people in France and the rest of the EU who would be delighted to see us leave. They see us as a brake on progress and if we don't like the point of the club the get out and leave the others to achieve what they want.

    Depends on your definition of progress doesn't it?

    More their definition than mine
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Mamba, you said you will vote IN because the EU is getting to grips with the migrant issue.
    Can you please let me know which news outlets you have, because it doesn't appear that way to me.
    As I have said earlier, if I were France, I'd do the same

    Well, for starters they have got NATO to help patrol Aegean, no more ALL WELCOME speeches, indeed the opposite, massive increase in aid budget to Turkey....
    but the bottom line Bally, is what can anyone really do when millions of people head to any countries borders? R4 today, the guy said that only syrians will be allowed into EU and he reckoned that would cause riots in Greece and else where, same result if we try and ship back non Syrians to Turkey etc, even if Turkey would allow their return - so how do we put down those riots? even the Chinese found crowd control difficult and they used summary executions and tanks, methods that wont be used in Greece or anywhere else in EU.

    i see ian duncan smith and Tebbit are now saying "if leaving EU is going to be so bad, why did DC call a vote, risking the nations well being" exactly what i said a while back, can any Tory supporters explain this rational to me?

    My gut feeling is to stay in but if we dont start hearing the positives of EU membership, i might vote OUT !!!
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    Did anyone see that 2 part documentary on Greece a couple of weeks back on BBC2.
    A very interesting point was made that up until the economic downturn, Greece was one of the biggest spenders on defence in Europe. They have more tanks than UK and France combined. And most of these seem to have come from Germany. It appears that German defence contractors and manufacturers were bribing the Greek government ministers to procure their arms. Naturally being Greek, they obliged.
    Now the country is financially up 5h1t creek and much of that debt has been attributed to the Germans. Who now want to ensure that Greece is financially enslaved to the Fatherland (MerkelLand).
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Did anyone see that 2 part documentary on Greece a couple of weeks back on BBC2.
    A very interesting point was made that up until the economic downturn, Greece was one of the biggest spenders on defence in Europe. They have more tanks than UK and France combined. And most of these seem to have come from Germany. It appears that German defence contractors and manufacturers were bribing the Greek government ministers to procure their arms. Naturally being Greek, they obliged.
    Now the country is financially up 5h1t creek and much of that debt has been attributed to the Germans. Who now want to ensure that Greece is financially enslaved to the Fatherland (MerkelLand).

    Well, i saw both parts of a doc on Greece and the conclusion was the rich and anyone else for that matter, didnt pay taxes and that was the root cause of their problems.

    they gave an example of a swimming pool tax and how the rich did everything in their power to hide their pools.... disgusting really and now the Greeks look like they ll become a holing camp for millions of refugees.

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