BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Mmmm when have you seen the media ask him anything that's not rona?surrey_commuter said:
Baffling that the media does not ask him why he is getting rid of something that he assures us does not exist.rick_chasey said:So he's trying to remove something that he agreed with the EU, got an electoral mandate for and then decided deny its existence?
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rick_chasey said:
So he's trying to remove something that he agreed with the EU, got an electoral mandate for and then decided deny its existence?
or more succinctly....
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Are people pro-Brexit now saying that Johnson has signed a bad deal?0
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The same could be said for Dover/Calais.TheBigBean said:
A pragmatic approach. Sausage rolls won't destroy the EU even if smuggled in and sold for cash.kingstongraham said:
The only solution that satisfies everyone is to look the other way and try to ignore it.morstar said:It’s not like the logical conundrum will ever go away. Two sets of diverging rules apply, both of which are sovereign and therefore ultimately require a border. Having reduced the border requirements as far as possible, ultimately where the requirements do exist It’s a binary choice of putting it on sea or land.
It required compromise, we compromised, people don’t like compromise.
We are all agreed on the piffling nature of fish so allowing fresh fish exports would not destroy the EU.
May as well extend that to all fresh produce as that won’t impact any other deals with far off lands.
I am equally sure that counting loads of multiple goods as a single customs consignment would not destroy the EU
Long term passporting for FS far from destroying the EU may help it.
Giving UK citizens the same rights as EU citizens would do no harm either
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We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.0 -
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_tradeStevo_666 said:
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective
Unless the Brits decide to recamp somewhere else in the world, it's gonna be doing most of its trade with the continent.0 -
Point has been made before but things are changing as it becomes easier to trade long distance. UK trade with the EU as a % of total trade was falling over time even while we were in the bloc. This will just accelerate the process as we become more outward looking.rick_chasey said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_tradeStevo_666 said:
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo. You're not innumerate. Do the maths.Stevo_666 said:
Point has been made before but things are changing as it becomes easier to trade long distance. UK trade with the EU as a % of total trade was falling over time even while we were in the bloc. This will just accelerate the process as we become more outward looking.rick_chasey said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_tradeStevo_666 said:
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective0 -
Only one of the greatest hits still playingrick_chasey said:
Stevo. You're not innumerate. Do the maths.Stevo_666 said:
Point has been made before but things are changing as it becomes easier to trade long distance. UK trade with the EU as a % of total trade was falling over time even while we were in the bloc. This will just accelerate the process as we become more outward looking.rick_chasey said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_tradeStevo_666 said:
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective
They need us more than we need them
Negotiation between equals
German carmakers
Opps with rest of the world1 -
Give it a few years and let's see what happens, rather than chucking theories around. It's not like you've got a lot of choice.rick_chasey said:
Stevo. You're not innumerate. Do the maths.Stevo_666 said:
Point has been made before but things are changing as it becomes easier to trade long distance. UK trade with the EU as a % of total trade was falling over time even while we were in the bloc. This will just accelerate the process as we become more outward looking.rick_chasey said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_tradeStevo_666 said:
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Nope. Apart from the last bit.surrey_commuter said:
Only one of the greatest hits still playingrick_chasey said:
Stevo. You're not innumerate. Do the maths.Stevo_666 said:
Point has been made before but things are changing as it becomes easier to trade long distance. UK trade with the EU as a % of total trade was falling over time even while we were in the bloc. This will just accelerate the process as we become more outward looking.rick_chasey said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_tradeStevo_666 said:
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective
They need us more than we need them
Negotiation between equals
German carmakers
Opps with rest of the world"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
It's not like you've got a lot of choice.
Ah, those sunny uplands of opportunity. You sell it so well.
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It's the one rule of economics that there is mountains and mountains of evidence for. You cannot escape it. You're burying your head in the sand if you can't see that.Stevo_666 said:
Give it a few years and let's see what happens, rather than chucking theories around. It's not like you've got a lot of choice.rick_chasey said:
Stevo. You're not innumerate. Do the maths.Stevo_666 said:
Point has been made before but things are changing as it becomes easier to trade long distance. UK trade with the EU as a % of total trade was falling over time even while we were in the bloc. This will just accelerate the process as we become more outward looking.rick_chasey said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_tradeStevo_666 said:
Give it time - because you'll have to.antonyfromoz said:
We chose to become a third party country so we cannot complain when we get treated like one. I seem to recall a lot of enthusiasm from some on here about the wonderful freedom we would have away from the stifling EU - well now's our chance to grasp those opportunities that were apparently being denied to us but instead the gov are asking for an extension of the temporary arrangements from three months to three years.briantrumpet said:john80 said:
The difference between us is that you think that you can negotiate with the EU. Would you be happy for the UK to take all the EU non tariff barriers and put an equal amount on the EU's goods.kingstongraham said:
You are surprised that the single market has some non tariff barriers to entry? Or that the UK government wasn't interested in negotiating this particular one that we seem to be using as an example?john80 said:
My understanding is that a product produced in NI would be available for export to the EU as they are part of the single market. In the case of mussels they can be transported live to France and Depurated then sold on for human consumption. Essentially the EU have decided that removing this supply is of benefit to their populations as fishermen will likely get higher prices for the remaining product. Shame IG don't do a commodity in shellfish. You could make some money when prices go up next summer when the EU has managed to vaccinate its populations and restaurants are back open with large suppliers in the UK excluded. The removal of the cleaning procedure in the EU is just plain and simple market protectionism at the expense of consumers. There is no technical reason as to why the current arrangements could not continue from either an environmental or food standards point of view.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I don't understand the answer to the question - it was about the current rules, not some imagined future.TheBigBean said:
Yes, so it would pose challenges for things like milk production which crosses the border a lot, but that is a consequence of Brexit. Sausage rolls shouldn't be a consequence of Brexit.kingstongraham said:
Would mussels produced in Northern Ireland be subject to the EU import rules that the Welsh ones are?TheBigBean said:
Yes, but NI is part of the UK, so GB sausage rolls would be fine for sale there. If someone in Ireland wanted to sell them, they would need to (i) find a way to launder them within their paperwork (ii) risk a spot check from the sausage roll customskingstongraham said:
That's open for checks only, not the actual requirements that they would be enforcing? Tariffs, standards etc?TheBigBean said:
I don't like it, but when people talk about any form of border between ROI and NI, it is always done in the context of ruining the peace and starting the troubles again etc. This is essentially letting some republican thugs call the shots.rjsterry said:
Aside from the customs implications, you seem remarkably sanguine about a bunch of loyalist thugs calling the shots.TheBigBean said:Right now there are no checks on the border from GB to NI and no checks from NI to ROI. Is the EU going to survive?
Imposing a border between GB and NI is just as much a breach of the GFA/BA as it would have been if it was between ROI and NI. The difference is that the republicans put more into their PR efforts.
So, whilst unpleasant, it was entirely predictable.
The clever thing about the NI protocol was that it allowed a lot of this to be managed sensibly, because there is the threat that NI would vote out in four years. Are sausage rolls sold in supermarkets a sufficient threat to the EU's market that it requires risky the peace?
I think I've been fairly consistent on this issue for a number of years. Open borders won't do much damage to either side.
If someone in France wanted to consume the illicit sausage rolls, they would have to arrange for them to be shipped directly from Ireland, so even more laundered paperwork would be required, and as with many things it might just be easier to smuggle them across the Dover-Calais border instead.
If you look at the Sweden Norway border, some things are smuggled and traded in cash (I think garlic is one of them), but this only really affects small parts of Sweden, and not the entire EU, and is price Sweden is prepared to pay.
Obviously, I have no idea why the EU suddenly want its consumers to pay more for mussels either.
Are mussels produced in Northern Ireland allowed to go into the EU without going through the cleaning process that the EU rules say is required for imports from outside the EU? I'm just not sure what NI's alignment with the single market fully means.
We've just signed a bare-bones 'deal' with the EU that, as predicted, made just about everything we do with them more costly and difficult. None of this comes a surprise. Well, if it does come as a surprise, you really weren't paying attention. There's nothing new about the regulations on shellfish, only that they now apply to the UK too.
A quick reminder may be in order that 87% of the global economy that we interact with is not impacted by this. And that 87% is growing faster than the 13% that the EU represents. Just a spot of perspective
0 -
Its not a question of burying heads in sand, as I said you'll just have to wait and watch. Or maybe throw yourself into that rejoin campaign, it will be good for you to focus on positive things. Fyi my group has now had a week on the trot with our key brexit indicators on 'green', so it is looking more like things are settling down in reality.
The important point for some of you lot is to stop crying over spilt milk. This whole thread is now looking like an increasingly frustrated rearguard action by a bunch of people who are desperate to get their 'I told you so' t-shirts printed."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
UK GDP in 2020 was around 2.2 trillion. EU Exports were just under 300million and imports just under 400 million. This is a reality that many forget. If we wiped out our exports completely to the EU our economy would shrink by 18 percent. EU trade is not as important as many think and trade wars and barriers are bad for both sides. Looked at my last packet of tomatoes and they were from Morocco.0
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"The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2019, UK exports to the EU were £294 billion (43% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £374 billion (52% of all UK imports)."john80 said:UK GDP in 2020 was around 2.2 trillion. EU Exports were just under 300million and imports just under 400 million. This is a reality that many forget. If we wiped out our exports completely to the EU our economy would shrink by 18 percent. EU trade is not as important as many think and trade wars and barriers are bad for both sides. Looked at my last packet of tomatoes and they were from Morocco.
Million/billion... who cares?1 -
People that understand maths.briantrumpet said:
"The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2019, UK exports to the EU were £294 billion (43% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £374 billion (52% of all UK imports)."john80 said:UK GDP in 2020 was around 2.2 trillion. EU Exports were just under 300million and imports just under 400 million. This is a reality that many forget. If we wiped out our exports completely to the EU our economy would shrink by 18 percent. EU trade is not as important as many think and trade wars and barriers are bad for both sides. Looked at my last packet of tomatoes and they were from Morocco.
Million/billion... who cares?0 -
And that is what a 0.5% annual reduction in the rate of growth looks like which sounds insignificant if you don’t understand compound growthjohn80 said:UK GDP in 2020 was around 2.2 trillion. EU Exports were just under 300million and imports just under 400 million. This is a reality that many forget. If we wiped out our exports completely to the EU our economy would shrink by 18 percent. EU trade is not as important as many think and trade wars and barriers are bad for both sides. Looked at my last packet of tomatoes and they were from Morocco.
0 -
Sounds more to me like people are just trying to report what's actually happening where others are putting fingers in their ears and going "nananananana".Stevo_666 said:Its not a question of burying heads in sand, as I said you'll just have to wait and watch. Or maybe throw yourself into that rejoin campaign, it will be good for you to focus on positive things. Fyi my group has now had a week on the trot with our key brexit indicators on 'green', so it is looking more like things are settling down in reality.
The important point for some of you lot is to stop crying over spilt milk. This whole thread is now looking like an increasingly frustrated rearguard action by a bunch of people who are desperate to get their 'I told you so' t-shirts printed.
The problem is, 'rona is keeping these issues off the front pages.0 -
So why is Gove in parliament talking about it?Stevo_666 said:Its not a question of burying heads in sand, as I said you'll just have to wait and watch. Or maybe throw yourself into that rejoin campaign, it will be good for you to focus on positive things. Fyi my group has now had a week on the trot with our key brexit indicators on 'green', so it is looking more like things are settling down in reality.
The important point for some of you lot is to stop crying over spilt milk. This whole thread is now looking like an increasingly frustrated rearguard action by a bunch of people who are desperate to get their 'I told you so' t-shirts printed.
We’ve spent 4 years on here making various predictions on what will happen when Brexit happens.
Now here we are. Now we have the proof of the pudding.
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This is quite amazing as it is the first time he is in danger of owning a downside of Brexit.rick_chasey said:
I can’t bring myself to open the link so could you give a précis of why it isn’t the fault of sneering freshmen or scheming Eurocrats0 -
"Drowning in paperwork" is the summary.surrey_commuter said:
This is quite amazing as it is the first time he is in danger of owning a downside of Brexit.rick_chasey said:
I can’t bring myself to open the link so could you give a précis of why it isn’t the fault of sneering freshmen or scheming Eurocrats0 -
Didn't the express cheer the deal?rick_chasey said:0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Its not a question of burying heads in sand, as I said you'll just have to wait and watch. Or maybe throw yourself into that rejoin campaign, it will be good for you to focus on positive things. Fyi my group has now had a week on the trot with our key brexit indicators on 'green', so it is looking more like things are settling down in reality.
The important point for some of you lot is to stop crying over spilt milk. This whole thread is now looking like an increasingly frustrated rearguard action by a bunch of people who are desperate to get their 'I told you so' t-shirts printed.
1 -
Stevo I don't believe you answered a previous question about whether those green KPIs are the same as the KPIs were pre Brexit?Stevo_666 said:Its not a question of burying heads in sand, as I said you'll just have to wait and watch. Or maybe throw yourself into that rejoin campaign, it will be good for you to focus on positive things. Fyi my group has now had a week on the trot with our key brexit indicators on 'green', so it is looking more like things are settling down in reality.
The important point for some of you lot is to stop crying over spilt milk. This whole thread is now looking like an increasingly frustrated rearguard action by a bunch of people who are desperate to get their 'I told you so' t-shirts printed.
e.g. if you had a KPI for getting through a port and green in 2020 was 6 hours, is green still 6 hours or have the goalposts shifted?- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
But why Plucky Boris’s fault and not conniving JF?rick_chasey said:
"Drowning in paperwork" is the summary.surrey_commuter said:
This is quite amazing as it is the first time he is in danger of owning a downside of Brexit.rick_chasey said:
I can’t bring myself to open the link so could you give a précis of why it isn’t the fault of sneering freshmen or scheming Eurocrats0 -
Beginning to see the Brexit challenges percolate into my world.
UK boutique fund managers are scrapping plans (and hiring) to grow the client base beyond the UK, as to take continental money they need to have an office and a person of significance somewhere inside the EU, as well as an EU fund structure.
Fine for the bigger firms, but not so for the boutiques.
Ironically, the EU firms have no problems taking money from UK clients, so whatever was negotiated, the EU guys pulled a blinder there.
Is still up in the air but that is the current sitch.0
