BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
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Meh, I think it's a failure on both sides. Lack of ambition on our part and inflexibility on the EU side, so both have lost out. That it could have been even more of a failure is a small relief. On it not being done, I read that there is a 4 year break clause, which will nicely align with the next election. So we get to have all the arguments all over again. 😶TheBigBean said:
Don't worry, there will be plenty of articles to appease the hardcore. The Guardian has a few already.rjsterry said:Strong sense of WA-style deja vu. Wonder how long before Johnson declares this deal an intolerable restraint on UK. I mean he's already lied about there being no non-tariff barriers.
Not done yet.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Dependsshortfall said:Is it too soon to post this?
The political defeat of Remain (or soft Brexit) is complete and absolute. There's no doubt about that at all. It's over. It's done.
Whether the agreement fulfills the objectives of core Brexiteers or delivers on what they promised remains to be seen.
However, for now, the defeat of Remain is so comprehensive there's no point even pointing that out.
I mean, the fact that this agreement doesn't even fulfill the basic question on the ballot paper has been lost entirely...
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Just think, all those remainers in parliament who voted down Theresa May's softest of soft Brexits must be pretty butt hurt now.tailwindhome said:
Dependsshortfall said:Is it too soon to post this?
The political defeat of Remain (or soft Brexit) is complete and absolute. There's no doubt about that at all. It's over. It's done.
Whether the agreement fulfills the objectives of core Brexiteers or delivers on what they promised remains to be seen.
However, for now, the defeat of Remain is so comprehensive there's no point even pointing that out.
I mean, the fact that this agreement doesn't even fulfill the basic question on the ballot paper has been lost entirely...1 -
I’ve heard on the grapevine that the French government is seriously unhappy with the final agreement around fishing. Representatives of the French fishing fleet demanding answers from Macron as to why in their view he’s allowed Brussels to break promises made to them, and Macron feeling he’s been pushed into a corner by Brussels and forced to agree to the deal so he isn’t shown to be the one that stops it.0
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No sh!t, with fisherman on both sides the rhetoric is all or nothing.kingstonian said:I’ve heard on the grapevine that the French government is seriously unhappy with the final agreement around fishing. Representatives of the French fishing fleet demanding answers from Macron as to why in their view he’s allowed Brussels to break promises made to them, and Macron feeling he’s been pushed into a corner by Brussels and forced to agree to the deal so he isn’t shown to be the one that stops it.
This isn’t the stuff that improves cooperation in the future.0 -
I admire no deal enthusiasts' faith in Johnson that the deal is what he says.
Happy Christmas everyone!0 -
I know.rick_chasey said:
Bit more complicated than thatStevo_666 said:
So we can set rules and policy to suit that large percentage of the economy. While still trading with the EU under our new trade agreement - you don't think it will stop, do you?First.Aspect said:
The UK has a free trade deal with itself. Perfect. Unless you like oranges. Or electronics. Or money.Stevo_666 said:
Over 80% of the UK economy does not trade with the EU apparently.surrey_commuter said:
Depending upon how you look at it this will come to be seen as the biggest omission or biggest accomplishment and in many ways symptomatic of the exclusion of 80% of the UK economy from Boris’s world beating FTA.TheBigBean said:
Doesn't have free movement of people either. Lots of things it doesn't have that weren't expected.rick_chasey said:
Worth reiterating.TheBigBean said:
Have you been following the last 9 months?rick_chasey said:No fs passporting
Makes a difference to my job
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Can't remember, but I think you get the drift and since its Xmas day I'll do an RC and advise you to DYORsurrey_commuter said:
Interesting stat, how are you measuring that £s, employees are 80% of all businesses?Stevo_666 said:
Over 80% of the UK economy does not trade with the EU apparently.surrey_commuter said:
Depending upon how you look at it this will come to be seen as the biggest omission or biggest accomplishment and in many ways symptomatic of the exclusion of 80% of the UK economy from Boris’s world beating FTA.TheBigBean said:
Doesn't have free movement of people either. Lots of things it doesn't have that weren't expected.rick_chasey said:
Worth reiterating.TheBigBean said:
Have you been following the last 9 months?rick_chasey said:No fs passporting
Makes a difference to my job
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
rick_chasey said:
No sh!t, with fisherman on both sides the rhetoric is all or nothing.kingstonian said:I’ve heard on the grapevine that the French government is seriously unhappy with the final agreement around fishing. Representatives of the French fishing fleet demanding answers from Macron as to why in their view he’s allowed Brussels to break promises made to them, and Macron feeling he’s been pushed into a corner by Brussels and forced to agree to the deal so he isn’t shown to be the one that stops it.
This isn’t the stuff that improves cooperation in the future.
Agreed. Completely unrealistic expectations on both sides. Decades of pandering to French fishermen and farmers is coming home to roost for the French government.
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Good news:
Brexit agreement could unleash dealmaking frenzy, says top investor
Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal is poised to spark a dealmaking frenzy after years of uncertainty as the country begins a new chapter as an independent nation, a top investor has said.
As business groups and companies across the UK welcomed the historic accord, Richard Buxton of Jupiter Asset Management said it is likely to trigger a surge in mergers and acquisitions by firms seeking an opportunity to grow.
The agreement with the European Union - the most comprehensive ever signed by the bloc - could pave the way for a radical reassessment of the country's markets by international capital, Mr Buxton said. It may also spark a long-overdue boom in business investment after companies held back cash due to fears of a turbulent no-deal exit.
Sterling climbed to $1.3543 shortly before 6pm on Christmas Eve, close to its 2020 peak of $1.3624, after the deal was finally announced. Stock markets had already closed for the Christmas break."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Leavers can look forward to every single economic blemish being blamed on Brexit.
Nice timing with a tonne of rona pain still to come.0 -
It's a shame the majority of the public won't join you in this ruse. The are a bit smarter than you give them credit for.rick_chasey said:Leavers can look forward to every single economic blemish being blamed on Brexit.
Nice timing with a tonne of rona pain still to come.0 -
Haha don’t be so stupidjohn80 said:
It's a shame the majority of the public won't join you in this ruse. The are a bit smarter than you give them credit for.rick_chasey said:Leavers can look forward to every single economic blemish being blamed on Brexit.
Nice timing with a tonne of rona pain still to come.0 -
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A good gauge is how angry wee Dickie Chasey is.kingstongraham said:I admire no deal enthusiasts' faith in Johnson that the deal is what he says.
Happy Christmas everyone!
Based on that I would say we have a good deal
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Honestly I think this is the point - it looks more independent than it will be in reality.rick_chasey said:
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Look on the bright side:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/24/uk-has-won-sovereignty-grieving-eu-good-deal-could-have-dreamed/
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In the end it didn’t happen at five minutes to midnight. It was two minutes to midnight. Everybody wanted a form of words he could present to the home audience as a win – or, in the case of the EU, if not a victory, at least a palatable outcome.
Apparently they spent the last 12 hours counting herring. Macron had to fend off the threat of rioting fishermen and Marine Le Pen, and Boris had to hang on to Grimsby. We will find out eventually how finely they had to slice the grape for their own audiences, but they can probably count on the fact that Covid and its attendant catastrophic consequences have blunted the more purist forms of critique. To have walked over the cliff of no deal now would have seemed like absolute insanity. Most of the populations of the key European states are so punch drunk from the pandemic that they are – almost – beyond caring about the detail.
But the press conferences told the real story of who had won most. Ursula von der Leyen and Michel Barnier looked as if they were delivering memorial speeches at a funeral. Mrs Von der Leyen, who may well have been the quiet heroine of this story, displayed faultless diplomacy in her dignified grief. But the most revealing point in her solemn disquisition was her clear failure, still, to understand what the word “sovereignty” meant. It should be understood, she said, in the twenty-first century to be something more like the EU ideal: solidarity and harmony between partners. But that, of course, is not what it means. As Boris Johnson – who was clearly, and justifiably, not sad at all – made clear, what sovereignty actually means is that our laws will be determined by our own elected parliament and interpreted by our own judges. And it is that understanding – that profound difference of basic principle – which underlies our incompatibility with the European ideology.
Trying – but not always succeeding – to resist triumphalism, Boris had the clearest, strongest argument possible: we are now, indisputably, part of a giant free trade zone with Europe but also able to make free trade agreements with other countries. We are in the most advantageous global position that we might have hoped for. He too was diplomatic in his explanation of why our membership of the EU had foundered. It was a fundamental historical difference in our political cultures: nations like Germany, France and Italy were determined that their peoples should never go to war with one another again – and the Benelux countries which had been trampled in the process were eager to go along.
But the UK – he did not quite say – does not share in that guilty remorse, and is proud of the independent and courageous role it played in the events of the last century. The consolidation and diminishing of national power which seemed the morally right path for so many European states was not appropriate or comfortable for us. So we have, at last, found our rightful place in a trading relationship and friendly partnership with the EU that does not involve a diminution of the democratic accountability of our elected government.
There will be much forensic examination of the details of this new charter for restoring independence, by people who have spent half their lives dedicated to the cause. But I do hope that not too many of my Brexiteer friends will decide to go down in the last ditch over fishing quotas or semantic interpretations. They are, I know, deeply conscientious and much too honourable to lose. And this is as good a deal as we could have dreamed.
A few 'Ursulas' on here then "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo, you know how you should view the Guardian comment section? The same goes for the Telegraph.0
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It seems the text of the deal is published.
Let's see what's actually in it.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
If I see articles with merit then I'll post them. Which bits of that article do you disagree with?kingstongraham said:Stevo, you know how you should view the Guardian comment section? The same goes for the Telegraph.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
rick_chasey said:
Honestly I think this is the point - it looks more independent than it will be in reality.rick_chasey said:
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
The massive assumption behind the whole article. Plus... The taking of Johnson at face value when he's happy in a press conference. The assumption that Von Der Leyen not being outwardly happy means that Britain has "won". The idea that sovereignty is an on/off switch. The idea that it's a good thing we aren't working with our European neighbours any more etc.Stevo_666 said:
If I see articles with merit then I'll post them. Which bits of that article do you disagree with?kingstongraham said:Stevo, you know how you should view the Guardian comment section? The same goes for the Telegraph.
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Not so much won but as mentioned above, the deal is closer to what we wanted than what the EU wanted. Plus her continuing inability to understand sovereignty, which is a grey scale - but we have definitely moved along the scale in the right directionkingstongraham said:
The massive assumption behind the whole article. Plus... The taking of Johnson at face value when he's happy in a press conference. The assumption that Von Der Leyen not being outwardly happy means that Britain has "won". The idea that sovereignty is an on/off switch. The idea that it's a good thing we aren't working with our European neighbours any more etc.Stevo_666 said:
If I see articles with merit then I'll post them. Which bits of that article do you disagree with?kingstongraham said:Stevo, you know how you should view the Guardian comment section? The same goes for the Telegraph.
Who says we aren't working with our European neighbours any more? We are, but more on our terms than before."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Sure, sure. I think this deal will turn out to mean we are rule takers, which I don't think is sustainable. Any deal that was achievable would have been the same.0
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Supports my point table that there a few Ursulas on here. You don't appear to get the sovereignty thing.kingstongraham said:Sure, sure. I think this deal will turn out to mean we are rule takers, which I don't think is sustainable. Any deal that was achievable would have been the same.
In what way were we not rule takers when part of a 28 member club that decided many of the rules that applied to the UK?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
So what do you do with all this expensive sovereignty?Stevo_666 said:rick_chasey said:
Honestly I think this is the point - it looks more independent than it will be in reality.rick_chasey said:0 -
Most pragmatists are happy to be rul takers when selling goods or services to a foreign market. If we are not rule takers in the UK then this will be acceptable to most people. If there is no benefit to being different then we should not be for sakes sake. But if there is then we should.0
