BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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This is a deal that would come in if there is no deal. You remember the "with no deal planes won't legally be allowed to fly to the EU" discussion?john80 said:
As a serious question do you think the EU has the commitment to essentially a trade blockage that would make Iran look like it was having an easy time of it as this is what you are describing above. I think a lot of their internal stakeholders would baulk pretty early on if they got to this position. By all means France has a group of hardened nutters that like camping outside ferry ports but when their effects are felt further from the port they will lose their support pretty quickly.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism0 -
Are remoaners still trying to push Project Fear around planes won't be allowed to fly?kingstongraham said:
This is a deal that would come in if there is no deal. You remember the "with no deal planes won't legally be allowed to fly to the EU" discussion?john80 said:
As a serious question do you think the EU has the commitment to essentially a trade blockage that would make Iran look like it was having an easy time of it as this is what you are describing above. I think a lot of their internal stakeholders would baulk pretty early on if they got to this position. By all means France has a group of hardened nutters that like camping outside ferry ports but when their effects are felt further from the port they will lose their support pretty quickly.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism
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This is a response to something else again RC. You couldn't get your head round why any of this could be the EU's fault. There you have it. They are being unreasonable.rick_chasey said:
Sure but that was flagged as likely behaviour from the off.First.Aspect said:
The EU are cutting of their nose to spite their face here though. They are notorious negotiators and trying to send a message internally not to do what the UK has done, by punishing the entire country and also themselves. I think they are due some blame for that.rick_chasey said:
If you’re a member of a group you get the benefits.TheBigBean said:
I find the mental gymnastics of not being able to blame the EU at all to be quite remarkable.rick_chasey said:
I still find the mental gymnastics of blaming the EU for the consequences of Brexit remarkable.john80 said:As usual the position of the UK government is that in the event of a no deal Brexit the government will aim to enter into reciprocal arrangements with either individual countries or the EU as a bloc for healthcare. Therefore if there is no reciprocal rights because your government or the EU decided that they did not want a reciprocal arrangement then I would suggest they wander down to their local or EU democracy to vent their outrage as it wont be the UK's doing. As for Brits just buy some travel insurance and chill out. You will still be able to get to Ibiza in the summer. I personally think the approach of saying if you give our citizens healthcare we will give yours healthcare is a pretty reasonable position. I am sure there are others that will make the case that this is an outrage and definitely the fault of the UK government.
Leave and you lose them.
Trying to have a dispute resolution forum that is not independent of one of the parties is flat out unreasonable in any negotiation, for example. In a civil contract it might even be unenforceable.
They are making the calculation that the threat to other wavering counties leaving and putting them off by making a tough U.K. arrangement is worth the cost.
This is logical geopolitics.
if it benefits them to be unreasonable why wouldn't they?
Given that we are economically about 20% of the EU, it just got quite a lot less bad for the next people to leave anyway. And quite a bit less worthwhile for others to join, given that they are clearly then perpetually going to be handcuffed.
It will be interesting how this plays out along the French coast, given that Macron is assuming Boreish will flinch and offer them most of the UK fishing rights, but he will end up with none, rather than 60% which he could have had. It will be quite a shock to the system and although a tiny industry, they will make quite a lot of noise.
You can only blame someone else for so long.0 -
No. If you paid attention, today's announcement:coopster_the_1st said:
Are remoaners still trying to push Project Fear around planes won't be allowed to fly?kingstongraham said:
This is a deal that would come in if there is no deal. You remember the "with no deal planes won't legally be allowed to fly to the EU" discussion?john80 said:
As a serious question do you think the EU has the commitment to essentially a trade blockage that would make Iran look like it was having an easy time of it as this is what you are describing above. I think a lot of their internal stakeholders would baulk pretty early on if they got to this position. By all means France has a group of hardened nutters that like camping outside ferry ports but when their effects are felt further from the port they will lose their support pretty quickly.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
deals with this:
https://www.cityam.com/brexit-no-deal-could-ground-uk-eu-flights-grant-shapps-admits/
When there are agreements for continuity, they actually have to be agreed and signed.0 -
It is more about a 10% spike in inflation right around the time that taxes will be hiked for the middle classes, and benefit cuts to the less well off, like the Tories always do. But hey, there's going to be big infrastructure investment in the South East to make up for it. Yay.coopster_the_1st said:
Are remoaners still trying to push Project Fear around planes won't be allowed to fly?kingstongraham said:
This is a deal that would come in if there is no deal. You remember the "with no deal planes won't legally be allowed to fly to the EU" discussion?john80 said:
As a serious question do you think the EU has the commitment to essentially a trade blockage that would make Iran look like it was having an easy time of it as this is what you are describing above. I think a lot of their internal stakeholders would baulk pretty early on if they got to this position. By all means France has a group of hardened nutters that like camping outside ferry ports but when their effects are felt further from the port they will lose their support pretty quickly.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism
But you are so successful Coopster that this won't be relevant to you.
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Going back a couple of pages, the EHIC - I quite liked it, and used it several times over the years for my kids. Quick access to hospitals for fairly minor but reasonably urgent issues. Sure, you paid for prescribed medicines, but that was it. No laborious paperwork.
I guess the future is paying your travel insurance excess instead. So it’ll cost a lot more.
It’s not really progress, is it?0 -
Nothing wrong with Grandfathering current arrangements while talking continuesTheBigBean said:
It wasn't an attempted summary. I think those clauses are independent, so the fishing isn't necessary to keep planes flying. I think the UK will agree to a time limited fishing extension as it will defer some chaos.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism
I just wondered who was the target audience for the statement. I'm suspicious it is the EU27.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
MAybe we are talking cross paths.First.Aspect said:
This is a response to something else again RC. You couldn't get your head round why any of this could be the EU's fault. There you have it. They are being unreasonable.rick_chasey said:
Sure but that was flagged as likely behaviour from the off.First.Aspect said:
The EU are cutting of their nose to spite their face here though. They are notorious negotiators and trying to send a message internally not to do what the UK has done, by punishing the entire country and also themselves. I think they are due some blame for that.rick_chasey said:
If you’re a member of a group you get the benefits.TheBigBean said:
I find the mental gymnastics of not being able to blame the EU at all to be quite remarkable.rick_chasey said:
I still find the mental gymnastics of blaming the EU for the consequences of Brexit remarkable.john80 said:As usual the position of the UK government is that in the event of a no deal Brexit the government will aim to enter into reciprocal arrangements with either individual countries or the EU as a bloc for healthcare. Therefore if there is no reciprocal rights because your government or the EU decided that they did not want a reciprocal arrangement then I would suggest they wander down to their local or EU democracy to vent their outrage as it wont be the UK's doing. As for Brits just buy some travel insurance and chill out. You will still be able to get to Ibiza in the summer. I personally think the approach of saying if you give our citizens healthcare we will give yours healthcare is a pretty reasonable position. I am sure there are others that will make the case that this is an outrage and definitely the fault of the UK government.
Leave and you lose them.
Trying to have a dispute resolution forum that is not independent of one of the parties is flat out unreasonable in any negotiation, for example. In a civil contract it might even be unenforceable.
They are making the calculation that the threat to other wavering counties leaving and putting them off by making a tough U.K. arrangement is worth the cost.
This is logical geopolitics.
if it benefits them to be unreasonable why wouldn't they?
Given that we are economically about 20% of the EU, it just got quite a lot less bad for the next people to leave anyway. And quite a bit less worthwhile for others to join, given that they are clearly then perpetually going to be handcuffed.
It will be interesting how this plays out along the French coast, given that Macron is assuming Boreish will flinch and offer them most of the UK fishing rights, but he will end up with none, rather than 60% which he could have had. It will be quite a shock to the system and although a tiny industry, they will make quite a lot of noise.
You can only blame someone else for so long.
Why would Brexit be anything other than the UK's fault? EU didn't want Brexit to happen, parts of the UK did.
I don't know what people are expecting when they say the EU is being unreasonable? So what? This is geopolitics. It is all about looking after your own interests. Their interests include maintaining the integrity of the EU and ensuring a local competitor does not undermine them.
They have some leverage there and they are using it. You can argue if you want about how sensible that is, but I can see the rationale there. Can't you?
I can summarise - if it is happening because Brexit is happening it is by definition brexit and therefore the UK's fault.0 -
Well except nothing else is being grandfathered. I would expect a fishing extension to March 2021. This avoids fishing demonstrations at the same time as everything else, but also provides some immediate motivation to get a longer term solution.tailwindhome said:
Nothing wrong with Grandfathering current arrangements while talking continuesTheBigBean said:
It wasn't an attempted summary. I think those clauses are independent, so the fishing isn't necessary to keep planes flying. I think the UK will agree to a time limited fishing extension as it will defer some chaos.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism
I just wondered who was the target audience for the statement. I'm suspicious it is the EU27.
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To use the divorce analogy, the person who initiates the divorce is not always the person who creates the conditions for a divorce to happen or to at least be considered.rick_chasey said:
MAybe we are talking cross paths.First.Aspect said:
This is a response to something else again RC. You couldn't get your head round why any of this could be the EU's fault. There you have it. They are being unreasonable.rick_chasey said:
Sure but that was flagged as likely behaviour from the off.First.Aspect said:
The EU are cutting of their nose to spite their face here though. They are notorious negotiators and trying to send a message internally not to do what the UK has done, by punishing the entire country and also themselves. I think they are due some blame for that.rick_chasey said:
If you’re a member of a group you get the benefits.TheBigBean said:
I find the mental gymnastics of not being able to blame the EU at all to be quite remarkable.rick_chasey said:
I still find the mental gymnastics of blaming the EU for the consequences of Brexit remarkable.john80 said:As usual the position of the UK government is that in the event of a no deal Brexit the government will aim to enter into reciprocal arrangements with either individual countries or the EU as a bloc for healthcare. Therefore if there is no reciprocal rights because your government or the EU decided that they did not want a reciprocal arrangement then I would suggest they wander down to their local or EU democracy to vent their outrage as it wont be the UK's doing. As for Brits just buy some travel insurance and chill out. You will still be able to get to Ibiza in the summer. I personally think the approach of saying if you give our citizens healthcare we will give yours healthcare is a pretty reasonable position. I am sure there are others that will make the case that this is an outrage and definitely the fault of the UK government.
Leave and you lose them.
Trying to have a dispute resolution forum that is not independent of one of the parties is flat out unreasonable in any negotiation, for example. In a civil contract it might even be unenforceable.
They are making the calculation that the threat to other wavering counties leaving and putting them off by making a tough U.K. arrangement is worth the cost.
This is logical geopolitics.
if it benefits them to be unreasonable why wouldn't they?
Given that we are economically about 20% of the EU, it just got quite a lot less bad for the next people to leave anyway. And quite a bit less worthwhile for others to join, given that they are clearly then perpetually going to be handcuffed.
It will be interesting how this plays out along the French coast, given that Macron is assuming Boreish will flinch and offer them most of the UK fishing rights, but he will end up with none, rather than 60% which he could have had. It will be quite a shock to the system and although a tiny industry, they will make quite a lot of noise.
You can only blame someone else for so long.
Why would Brexit be anything other than the UK's fault? EU didn't want Brexit to happen, parts of the UK did.
I don't know what people are expecting when they say the EU is being unreasonable? So what? This is geopolitics. It is all about looking after your own interests. Their interests include maintaining the integrity of the EU and ensuring a local competitor does not undermine them.
They have some leverage there and they are using it. You can argue if you want about how sensible that is, but I can see the rationale there. Can't you?
I can summarise - if it is happening because Brexit is happening it is by definition brexit and therefore the UK's fault."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.1 -
Sure but what is the point of whining during the divorce that your wife is being unreasonable and trying to screw you for divorcing so the next husband doesn't think twice?Stevo_666 said:
To use the divorce analogy, the person who initiates the divorce is not always the person who creates the conditions for a divorce to happen or to at least be considered.rick_chasey said:
MAybe we are talking cross paths.First.Aspect said:
This is a response to something else again RC. You couldn't get your head round why any of this could be the EU's fault. There you have it. They are being unreasonable.rick_chasey said:
Sure but that was flagged as likely behaviour from the off.First.Aspect said:
The EU are cutting of their nose to spite their face here though. They are notorious negotiators and trying to send a message internally not to do what the UK has done, by punishing the entire country and also themselves. I think they are due some blame for that.rick_chasey said:
If you’re a member of a group you get the benefits.TheBigBean said:
I find the mental gymnastics of not being able to blame the EU at all to be quite remarkable.rick_chasey said:
I still find the mental gymnastics of blaming the EU for the consequences of Brexit remarkable.john80 said:As usual the position of the UK government is that in the event of a no deal Brexit the government will aim to enter into reciprocal arrangements with either individual countries or the EU as a bloc for healthcare. Therefore if there is no reciprocal rights because your government or the EU decided that they did not want a reciprocal arrangement then I would suggest they wander down to their local or EU democracy to vent their outrage as it wont be the UK's doing. As for Brits just buy some travel insurance and chill out. You will still be able to get to Ibiza in the summer. I personally think the approach of saying if you give our citizens healthcare we will give yours healthcare is a pretty reasonable position. I am sure there are others that will make the case that this is an outrage and definitely the fault of the UK government.
Leave and you lose them.
Trying to have a dispute resolution forum that is not independent of one of the parties is flat out unreasonable in any negotiation, for example. In a civil contract it might even be unenforceable.
They are making the calculation that the threat to other wavering counties leaving and putting them off by making a tough U.K. arrangement is worth the cost.
This is logical geopolitics.
if it benefits them to be unreasonable why wouldn't they?
Given that we are economically about 20% of the EU, it just got quite a lot less bad for the next people to leave anyway. And quite a bit less worthwhile for others to join, given that they are clearly then perpetually going to be handcuffed.
It will be interesting how this plays out along the French coast, given that Macron is assuming Boreish will flinch and offer them most of the UK fishing rights, but he will end up with none, rather than 60% which he could have had. It will be quite a shock to the system and although a tiny industry, they will make quite a lot of noise.
You can only blame someone else for so long.
Why would Brexit be anything other than the UK's fault? EU didn't want Brexit to happen, parts of the UK did.
I don't know what people are expecting when they say the EU is being unreasonable? So what? This is geopolitics. It is all about looking after your own interests. Their interests include maintaining the integrity of the EU and ensuring a local competitor does not undermine them.
They have some leverage there and they are using it. You can argue if you want about how sensible that is, but I can see the rationale there. Can't you?
I can summarise - if it is happening because Brexit is happening it is by definition brexit and therefore the UK's fault.
That is always a risk going into the divorce.0 -
Agree, just get on with the divorce and take what you can. And definitely don't go back, that would be a mistake...rick_chasey said:
Sure but what is the point of whining during the divorce that your wife is being unreasonable and trying to screw you for divorcing so the next husband doesn't think twice?Stevo_666 said:
To use the divorce analogy, the person who initiates the divorce is not always the person who creates the conditions for a divorce to happen or to at least be considered.rick_chasey said:
MAybe we are talking cross paths.First.Aspect said:
This is a response to something else again RC. You couldn't get your head round why any of this could be the EU's fault. There you have it. They are being unreasonable.rick_chasey said:
Sure but that was flagged as likely behaviour from the off.First.Aspect said:
The EU are cutting of their nose to spite their face here though. They are notorious negotiators and trying to send a message internally not to do what the UK has done, by punishing the entire country and also themselves. I think they are due some blame for that.rick_chasey said:
If you’re a member of a group you get the benefits.TheBigBean said:
I find the mental gymnastics of not being able to blame the EU at all to be quite remarkable.rick_chasey said:
I still find the mental gymnastics of blaming the EU for the consequences of Brexit remarkable.john80 said:As usual the position of the UK government is that in the event of a no deal Brexit the government will aim to enter into reciprocal arrangements with either individual countries or the EU as a bloc for healthcare. Therefore if there is no reciprocal rights because your government or the EU decided that they did not want a reciprocal arrangement then I would suggest they wander down to their local or EU democracy to vent their outrage as it wont be the UK's doing. As for Brits just buy some travel insurance and chill out. You will still be able to get to Ibiza in the summer. I personally think the approach of saying if you give our citizens healthcare we will give yours healthcare is a pretty reasonable position. I am sure there are others that will make the case that this is an outrage and definitely the fault of the UK government.
Leave and you lose them.
Trying to have a dispute resolution forum that is not independent of one of the parties is flat out unreasonable in any negotiation, for example. In a civil contract it might even be unenforceable.
They are making the calculation that the threat to other wavering counties leaving and putting them off by making a tough U.K. arrangement is worth the cost.
This is logical geopolitics.
if it benefits them to be unreasonable why wouldn't they?
Given that we are economically about 20% of the EU, it just got quite a lot less bad for the next people to leave anyway. And quite a bit less worthwhile for others to join, given that they are clearly then perpetually going to be handcuffed.
It will be interesting how this plays out along the French coast, given that Macron is assuming Boreish will flinch and offer them most of the UK fishing rights, but he will end up with none, rather than 60% which he could have had. It will be quite a shock to the system and although a tiny industry, they will make quite a lot of noise.
You can only blame someone else for so long.
Why would Brexit be anything other than the UK's fault? EU didn't want Brexit to happen, parts of the UK did.
I don't know what people are expecting when they say the EU is being unreasonable? So what? This is geopolitics. It is all about looking after your own interests. Their interests include maintaining the integrity of the EU and ensuring a local competitor does not undermine them.
They have some leverage there and they are using it. You can argue if you want about how sensible that is, but I can see the rationale there. Can't you?
I can summarise - if it is happening because Brexit is happening it is by definition brexit and therefore the UK's fault.
That is always a risk going into the divorce."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
We are, but I thought I would put Rick straight on his odd blame game logic.kingstongraham said:Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.Stevo_666 said:
We are, but I thought I would put Rick straight on his odd blame game logic.kingstongraham said:Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.
0 -
Yupkingstongraham said:Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.
The EU will prioritise the SM CU over the economic hit of damaging the EU UK trade
The UK is prioritising sovereignty over the damage to UK EU trade
'Wrong' doesn't square the circle
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!1 -
We is the idea the EU are punishing the UK so pervasive?
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
90% you said!tailwindhome said:
Yupkingstongraham said:Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.
The EU will prioritise the SM CU over the economic hit of damaging the EU UK trade
The UK is prioritising sovereignty over the damage to UK EU trade
'Wrong' doesn't square the circle0 -
I object to the blame game. By all means support Brexit but own ittailwindhome said:
Yupkingstongraham said:Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.
The EU will prioritise the SM CU over the economic hit of damaging the EU UK trade
The UK is prioritising sovereignty over the damage to UK EU trade
'Wrong' doesn't square the circle0 -
Yeahbut I'm always wrongTheBigBean said:
90% you said!tailwindhome said:
Yupkingstongraham said:Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.
The EU will prioritise the SM CU over the economic hit of damaging the EU UK trade
The UK is prioritising sovereignty over the damage to UK EU trade
'Wrong' doesn't square the circle
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Pinning the blame on the EU was, is and always will be part of the "winning" strategy.rick_chasey said:
I object to the blame game. By all means support Brexit but own ittailwindhome said:
Yupkingstongraham said:Aren't we a bit beyond whether it's a good idea or whose fault it was?
Nobody is changing anyone's minds on that.
The EU will prioritise the SM CU over the economic hit of damaging the EU UK trade
The UK is prioritising sovereignty over the damage to UK EU trade
'Wrong' doesn't square the circleThe above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Complaining about the EU being intransigent is perfecto.0
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Are you sure Coopster hasn't hacked your account?rick_chasey said:
Sure but what is the point of whining during the divorce that your wife is being unreasonable and trying to screw you for divorcing so the next husband doesn't think twice?Stevo_666 said:
To use the divorce analogy, the person who initiates the divorce is not always the person who creates the conditions for a divorce to happen or to at least be considered.rick_chasey said:
MAybe we are talking cross paths.First.Aspect said:
This is a response to something else again RC. You couldn't get your head round why any of this could be the EU's fault. There you have it. They are being unreasonable.rick_chasey said:
Sure but that was flagged as likely behaviour from the off.First.Aspect said:
The EU are cutting of their nose to spite their face here though. They are notorious negotiators and trying to send a message internally not to do what the UK has done, by punishing the entire country and also themselves. I think they are due some blame for that.rick_chasey said:
If you’re a member of a group you get the benefits.TheBigBean said:
I find the mental gymnastics of not being able to blame the EU at all to be quite remarkable.rick_chasey said:
I still find the mental gymnastics of blaming the EU for the consequences of Brexit remarkable.john80 said:As usual the position of the UK government is that in the event of a no deal Brexit the government will aim to enter into reciprocal arrangements with either individual countries or the EU as a bloc for healthcare. Therefore if there is no reciprocal rights because your government or the EU decided that they did not want a reciprocal arrangement then I would suggest they wander down to their local or EU democracy to vent their outrage as it wont be the UK's doing. As for Brits just buy some travel insurance and chill out. You will still be able to get to Ibiza in the summer. I personally think the approach of saying if you give our citizens healthcare we will give yours healthcare is a pretty reasonable position. I am sure there are others that will make the case that this is an outrage and definitely the fault of the UK government.
Leave and you lose them.
Trying to have a dispute resolution forum that is not independent of one of the parties is flat out unreasonable in any negotiation, for example. In a civil contract it might even be unenforceable.
They are making the calculation that the threat to other wavering counties leaving and putting them off by making a tough U.K. arrangement is worth the cost.
This is logical geopolitics.
if it benefits them to be unreasonable why wouldn't they?
Given that we are economically about 20% of the EU, it just got quite a lot less bad for the next people to leave anyway. And quite a bit less worthwhile for others to join, given that they are clearly then perpetually going to be handcuffed.
It will be interesting how this plays out along the French coast, given that Macron is assuming Boreish will flinch and offer them most of the UK fishing rights, but he will end up with none, rather than 60% which he could have had. It will be quite a shock to the system and although a tiny industry, they will make quite a lot of noise.
You can only blame someone else for so long.
Why would Brexit be anything other than the UK's fault? EU didn't want Brexit to happen, parts of the UK did.
I don't know what people are expecting when they say the EU is being unreasonable? So what? This is geopolitics. It is all about looking after your own interests. Their interests include maintaining the integrity of the EU and ensuring a local competitor does not undermine them.
They have some leverage there and they are using it. You can argue if you want about how sensible that is, but I can see the rationale there. Can't you?
I can summarise - if it is happening because Brexit is happening it is by definition brexit and therefore the UK's fault.
That is always a risk going into the divorce.0 -
I do remember this discussion but it is going to be a hard sell to the public on both sides. Today we are all following the same rules. January the 1st you could not possibly fly that plane from A to B because of what? Thats right petty bureaucracy. The UK is not aiming to make planes out of cheese in January of force pilots to fly whilst on smack are they. Sell that to EU airlines that are on the brink of collapse already I dare you. Or is this yet more nonsense where it wont affect the EU as the UK would obviously let EU planes fly to the UK because anything otherwise would be totally not the EU's fault.kingstongraham said:
This is a deal that would come in if there is no deal. You remember the "with no deal planes won't legally be allowed to fly to the EU" discussion?john80 said:
As a serious question do you think the EU has the commitment to essentially a trade blockage that would make Iran look like it was having an easy time of it as this is what you are describing above. I think a lot of their internal stakeholders would baulk pretty early on if they got to this position. By all means France has a group of hardened nutters that like camping outside ferry ports but when their effects are felt further from the port they will lose their support pretty quickly.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism0 -
Perhaps now the French will have to start patrolling The Channel to turn back all those small overcrowded vessels full of people with skis and suncream desperately trying to reach their shores0
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From January the Uk's covid numbers might make it challenging to go into the EU anyway. So the open skies bit may be secondary.john80 said:
I do remember this discussion but it is going to be a hard sell to the public on both sides. Today we are all following the same rules. January the 1st you could not possibly fly that plane from A to B because of what? Thats right petty bureaucracy. The UK is not aiming to make planes out of cheese in January of force pilots to fly whilst on smack are they. Sell that to EU airlines that are on the brink of collapse already I dare you. Or is this yet more nonsense where it wont affect the EU as the UK would obviously let EU planes fly to the UK because anything otherwise would be totally not the EU's fault.kingstongraham said:
This is a deal that would come in if there is no deal. You remember the "with no deal planes won't legally be allowed to fly to the EU" discussion?john80 said:
As a serious question do you think the EU has the commitment to essentially a trade blockage that would make Iran look like it was having an easy time of it as this is what you are describing above. I think a lot of their internal stakeholders would baulk pretty early on if they got to this position. By all means France has a group of hardened nutters that like camping outside ferry ports but when their effects are felt further from the port they will lose their support pretty quickly.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism0 -
Acting surprised about the EU being bureaucratic and rules based is quite something.john80 said:
I do remember this discussion but it is going to be a hard sell to the public on both sides. Today we are all following the same rules. January the 1st you could not possibly fly that plane from A to B because of what? Thats right petty bureaucracy. The UK is not aiming to make planes out of cheese in January of force pilots to fly whilst on smack are they. Sell that to EU airlines that are on the brink of collapse already I dare you. Or is this yet more nonsense where it wont affect the EU as the UK would obviously let EU planes fly to the UK because anything otherwise would be totally not the EU's fault.kingstongraham said:
This is a deal that would come in if there is no deal. You remember the "with no deal planes won't legally be allowed to fly to the EU" discussion?john80 said:
As a serious question do you think the EU has the commitment to essentially a trade blockage that would make Iran look like it was having an easy time of it as this is what you are describing above. I think a lot of their internal stakeholders would baulk pretty early on if they got to this position. By all means France has a group of hardened nutters that like camping outside ferry ports but when their effects are felt further from the port they will lose their support pretty quickly.surrey_commuter said:
that is a very narrow interpretation of that statement.TheBigBean said:Commission statement. One year fishing extension is requested.
Not sure who the target audience is.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2368
Surely that backs up my theory that they have given themselves a few days to keep the lights on etc... problem is that they have tied the necessities to fish.
So does the Lord High Priest of the thickos keep the lights on, planes flying and food on the shelves in exchange for £3.50 of fish we could not sell anyway or does he testiculate and rely of English exceptionalism
Again, this is an agreement that needs to be made, will be made, but hasn't yet been made. It's only needed if there is no trade deal.0 -
because if you accept that they are acting predictably and rationally and you don't like what that looks like then voting Leave looks like a the dumb idea you were told it would be.tailwindhome said:We is the idea the EU are punishing the UK so pervasive?
The EU acting irrationally means that voting Leave was a good idea but is being thwarted by lunatics.
This is why all bad things happening because of the referendum are denied or explained away by other factors1 -
Singapore and Vietnam deals rolled over.
Guardian reporting that planes can only fly if the UK doesn't change from EU rules.2 -
so it seems that Covid restrictions on non_EU countries means we won't be able to travel there after Dec 31st.
Raab says this is nothing to do with Brexit
On the plus side it will not natter if the planes are grounded.0
