BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

briantrumpet

sungod said:

imo their backers would prefer no deal, they won't be hurting, it'll be hog heaven for them, and johnson and co would have an assured future of many plump directorships and consulting positions

And meanwhile saying they can't afford to raise the minimum wage...

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

According to Raab, the only two remaining issues are around state aid and fishing rights.

This is presumably where we trade fishing access for state aid flexibility.

I am surprised it is only those two issues given the indications that everything has stalled so badly.

Whilst I think state aid is a good thing for investing in the economy, it is unusual for a Tory government to risk dying on that cross.

They are the only two issues the EU is williing to talk about. There is still work to do on the rest.

What about this new development makes you think the UK is negotiating in good faith?

How did you read that into my statement?

Because if you are talking about what the EU is willing or not willing to talk about, im assuming you think the U.K. is?

After all, what is the point of debating what the EU will and won’t do if the U.K. won’t even stick to promises it has already made?

The UK hasn't done anything yet. You are just reacting to a leak. In contrast, the EU has confirmed it is only willing to talk about two things at the moment despite having made a legal commitment to "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration"

So a) the this gov't declares policies through leaks and b) do you really think the EU is not adhering to the committment o "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration" but the UK is?

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

In the prisoner’s dilemma, the U.K. has told the other side it intends to rat then out

I do think that you are over-reacting. Our prisoner has been telling them he is going to rat them out even as they committed the crime. he has repeatedly said that there will be no customs border in the Irish Sea. I think he is more likely to speak the truth in unguarded moments and I was always struck by the video of him talking to NI business leaders unequivocably telling them there would be no form filling.

They knew he could not be trusted and that is already baked into the current position of them insisting on long term legally enforceable rules.

To carry on the metaphor; shouting that you'll rat out the other side to your prison guards is part of the bit. Actually ratting them out is another, right?

Boris is defined by his willingness to say anything to resolve whatever problem he is currently presented with.

In your analogy he would be a known grass and you would be 100% sure that he would rat you out for a cup of tea and 20 Rothmans and you would alter your behaviour accordingly

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

According to Raab, the only two remaining issues are around state aid and fishing rights.

This is presumably where we trade fishing access for state aid flexibility.

I am surprised it is only those two issues given the indications that everything has stalled so badly.

Whilst I think state aid is a good thing for investing in the economy, it is unusual for a Tory government to risk dying on that cross.

They are the only two issues the EU is williing to talk about. There is still work to do on the rest.

What about this new development makes you think the UK is negotiating in good faith?

How did you read that into my statement?

Because if you are talking about what the EU is willing or not willing to talk about, im assuming you think the U.K. is?

After all, what is the point of debating what the EU will and won’t do if the U.K. won’t even stick to promises it has already made?

The UK hasn't done anything yet. You are just reacting to a leak. In contrast, the EU has confirmed it is only willing to talk about two things at the moment despite having made a legal commitment to "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration"

So a) the this gov't declares policies through leaks and b) do you really think the EU is not adhering to the committment o "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration" but the UK is?

It is a matter for lawyers and courts, but it doesn't, on the face of it, appear that the EU is adhering to that bit of the agreement.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

According to Raab, the only two remaining issues are around state aid and fishing rights.

This is presumably where we trade fishing access for state aid flexibility.

I am surprised it is only those two issues given the indications that everything has stalled so badly.

Whilst I think state aid is a good thing for investing in the economy, it is unusual for a Tory government to risk dying on that cross.

They are the only two issues the EU is williing to talk about. There is still work to do on the rest.

What about this new development makes you think the UK is negotiating in good faith?

How did you read that into my statement?

Because if you are talking about what the EU is willing or not willing to talk about, im assuming you think the U.K. is?

After all, what is the point of debating what the EU will and won’t do if the U.K. won’t even stick to promises it has already made?

The UK hasn't done anything yet. You are just reacting to a leak. In contrast, the EU has confirmed it is only willing to talk about two things at the moment despite having made a legal commitment to "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration"

So a) the this gov't declares policies through leaks and b) do you really think the EU is not adhering to the committment o "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration" but the UK is?

It is a matter for lawyers and courts, but it doesn't, on the face of it, appear that the EU is adhering to that bit of the agreement.

I think their defence would be that we have not exactly been in a hurry

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

According to Raab, the only two remaining issues are around state aid and fishing rights.

This is presumably where we trade fishing access for state aid flexibility.

I am surprised it is only those two issues given the indications that everything has stalled so badly.

Whilst I think state aid is a good thing for investing in the economy, it is unusual for a Tory government to risk dying on that cross.

They are the only two issues the EU is williing to talk about. There is still work to do on the rest.

What about this new development makes you think the UK is negotiating in good faith?

Strangely this new development cheers me up as it means they have a plan

Yes that is stupid

My startpoint is that Brexit is the dumbest thing anybody has ever done and that Boris will end up with no deal.

It cheers me up that he will get there through a plan going back to pre-WA and we won’t just end up there through a mixture of laziness, incompetence and stupidity. This way suggests the plan is mapped out for the next decade and they aren’t just a bunch of chancers

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

briantrumpet

I think that the Guardian has a new writer:

"The withdrawal agreement is an international treaty and legally binding. This is why the Irish, with the full backing of the EU, were so keen to get the arrangements for the Irish border nailed down in the withdrawal agreement. They knew the UK could not subsequently wriggle out of the deal without risking its international reputation as a trustworthy nation that stands by its own legal commitments.

Practically, however, the government can do what it likes as it has an 80-strong majority."

tailwindhome

briantrumpet said:

I think that the Guardian has a new writer:


Practically, however, the government can do what it likes as it has an 80-strong majority."

Is it Stevo?

john80

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

According to Raab, the only two remaining issues are around state aid and fishing rights.

This is presumably where we trade fishing access for state aid flexibility.

I am surprised it is only those two issues given the indications that everything has stalled so badly.

Whilst I think state aid is a good thing for investing in the economy, it is unusual for a Tory government to risk dying on that cross.

They are the only two issues the EU is williing to talk about. There is still work to do on the rest.

What about this new development makes you think the UK is negotiating in good faith?

How did you read that into my statement?

Because if you are talking about what the EU is willing or not willing to talk about, im assuming you think the U.K. is?

After all, what is the point of debating what the EU will and won’t do if the U.K. won’t even stick to promises it has already made?

The UK hasn't done anything yet. You are just reacting to a leak. In contrast, the EU has confirmed it is only willing to talk about two things at the moment despite having made a legal commitment to "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration"

So a) the this gov't declares policies through leaks and b) do you really think the EU is not adhering to the committment o "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration" but the UK is?

The EU is not meeting its commitment by creating a timetable where their important issues are resolved first by the UK capitulating on the basis that the EU might be nice to them on their important issues. Sure I might try this negotiating tactic with close personal friends and family but it is a pretty stupid thing to go along with in business or politics. But sure you keep believing that the EU will give us a good deal after we have rolled over to their requirements. You seem to be still struggling with the reality
that the EU is a loose group of competing nations where the primary aim is to the do the best for your citizens as after all they are keeping you in a job as a politician. The idea that Any European countries population give a toss about a Brit is laughable and it works both ways.

pblakeney

^^^^
You are aware it is BJ who is pulling the date forward to October?

surrey_commuter

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

According to Raab, the only two remaining issues are around state aid and fishing rights.

This is presumably where we trade fishing access for state aid flexibility.

I am surprised it is only those two issues given the indications that everything has stalled so badly.

Whilst I think state aid is a good thing for investing in the economy, it is unusual for a Tory government to risk dying on that cross.

They are the only two issues the EU is williing to talk about. There is still work to do on the rest.

What about this new development makes you think the UK is negotiating in good faith?

How did you read that into my statement?

Because if you are talking about what the EU is willing or not willing to talk about, im assuming you think the U.K. is?

After all, what is the point of debating what the EU will and won’t do if the U.K. won’t even stick to promises it has already made?

The UK hasn't done anything yet. You are just reacting to a leak. In contrast, the EU has confirmed it is only willing to talk about two things at the moment despite having made a legal commitment to "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration"

So a) the this gov't declares policies through leaks and b) do you really think the EU is not adhering to the committment o "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration" but the UK is?

The EU is not meeting its commitment by creating a timetable where their important issues are resolved first by the UK capitulating on the basis that the EU might be nice to them on their important issues. Sure I might try this negotiating tactic with close personal friends and family but it is a pretty stupid thing to go along with in business or politics. But sure you keep believing that the EU will give us a good deal after we have rolled over to their requirements. You seem to be still struggling with the reality
that the EU is a loose group of competing nations where the primary aim is to the do the best for your citizens as after all they are keeping you in a job as a politician. The idea that Any European countries population give a toss about a Brit is laughable and it works both ways.

only especially crazed Brexiteers ever thought the EU was ever going to give us a good deal and I imagine for the majority the reality is starting to set in.

coopster_the_1st

The remoaners seem to have forgotten that their much idolised 80 seat majority was built on Boris "getting Brexit done". As remoaners had constantly pointed out there was a risk of no-deal in delivering Brexit but that deal option still delivered their beloved 80 seat majority.

bompington

coopster_the_1st said:

The remoaners seem to have forgotten that their much idolised 80 seat majority was built on Boris "getting Brexit done". As remoaners had constantly pointed out there was a risk of no-deal in delivering Brexit but that deal still delivered their beloved 80 seat majority.

OK, in this case I'll admit that it's me who doesn't know what words mean.

Still doesn't make any less sense than usual, of course.

briantrumpet

bompington said:

coopster_the_1st said:

The remoaners seem to have forgotten that their much idolised 80 seat majority was built on Boris "getting Brexit done". As remoaners had constantly pointed out there was a risk of no-deal in delivering Brexit but that deal still delivered their beloved 80 seat majority.

OK, in this case I'll admit that it's me who doesn't know what words mean.

Still doesn't make any less sense than usual, of course.

And Trump got elected on Make America Great Again, and they've got 180,000 dead Americans. Seems that three- or four-word slogans don't guarantee success in policy terms. Weird, eh?

kingstongraham

coopster_the_1st said:

The remoaners seem to have forgotten that their much idolised 80 seat majority was built on Boris "getting Brexit done". As remoaners had constantly pointed out there was a risk of no-deal in delivering Brexit but that deal option still delivered their beloved 80 seat majority.

All the conservative candidates had to sign that they supported the withdrawal agreement.

tailwindhome

coopster_the_1st said:

The remoaners seem to have forgotten that their much idolised 80 seat majority was built on Boris "getting Brexit done". As remoaners had constantly pointed out there was a risk of no-deal in delivering Brexit but that deal option still delivered their beloved 80 seat majority.

switch 'er off and on again.

rick_chasey

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

morstar said:

According to Raab, the only two remaining issues are around state aid and fishing rights.

This is presumably where we trade fishing access for state aid flexibility.

I am surprised it is only those two issues given the indications that everything has stalled so badly.

Whilst I think state aid is a good thing for investing in the economy, it is unusual for a Tory government to risk dying on that cross.

They are the only two issues the EU is williing to talk about. There is still work to do on the rest.

What about this new development makes you think the UK is negotiating in good faith?

How did you read that into my statement?

Because if you are talking about what the EU is willing or not willing to talk about, im assuming you think the U.K. is?

After all, what is the point of debating what the EU will and won’t do if the U.K. won’t even stick to promises it has already made?

The UK hasn't done anything yet. You are just reacting to a leak. In contrast, the EU has confirmed it is only willing to talk about two things at the moment despite having made a legal commitment to "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration"

So a) the this gov't declares policies through leaks and b) do you really think the EU is not adhering to the committment o "use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration" but the UK is?

The EU is not meeting its commitment by creating a timetable where their important issues are resolved first by the UK capitulating on the basis that the EU might be nice to them on their important issues. Sure I might try this negotiating tactic with close personal friends and family but it is a pretty stupid thing to go along with in business or politics. But sure you keep believing that the EU will give us a good deal after we have rolled over to their requirements. You seem to be still struggling with the reality
that the EU is a loose group of competing nations where the primary aim is to the do the best for your citizens as after all they are keeping you in a job as a politician. The idea that Any European countries population give a toss about a Brit is laughable and it works both ways.

When have I ever said the EU will give a deal that's great for the UK?

Seriously.

briantrumpet

Either it was misreporting earlier, or push-back has prompted another U-turn. It's now "minor clarifications in extremely specific areas"... though you might have thought it might be a good idea to agree the clarifications with the body you have a legal agreement with, even then, if you're doing it in good faith.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/07/politics-latest-news-politics-news-boris-johnson-brexit-trade/

TheBigBean

Peston in the Spectator explaining the government's thinking

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-thinks-no-deal-might-be-worth-the-pain/amp

Stevo_666

TheBigBean said:

Peston in the Spectator explaining the government's thinking

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-thinks-no-deal-might-be-worth-the-pain/amp

Sounds like some sensible long term thinking with the overall good of the UK in mind, backed up by the lessons of history

Albeit a bit socialist in approach when seen from some angles. Cue the usual suspects...

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

Peston in the Spectator explaining the government's thinking

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-thinks-no-deal-might-be-worth-the-pain/amp

Sounds like some sensible long term thinking with the overall good of the UK in mind, backed up by the lessons of history

Albeit a bit socialist in approach when seen from some angles. Cue the usual suspects...

Don't people know best where to spend their money, not the government?

morstar

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

Peston in the Spectator explaining the government's thinking

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-thinks-no-deal-might-be-worth-the-pain/amp

Sounds like some sensible long term thinking with the overall good of the UK in mind, backed up by the lessons of history

Albeit a bit socialist in approach when seen from some angles. Cue the usual suspects...

Don't people know best where to spend their money, not the government?

All about balance isn’t it. Totally free markets don’t deliver everything. They are incredibly efficient at many things and bad at others.
As soon as you accept some state intervention is required (e.g. laws) it is all just about where the lines are.
Long term growth decisions are what governments can provide in a way disconnected self focussed businesses can’t.
I agree with proactive state intervention as outlined. We have a labour force, create / facilitate industry for them to work in.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

Peston in the Spectator explaining the government's thinking

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-thinks-no-deal-might-be-worth-the-pain/amp

Sounds like some sensible long term thinking with the overall good of the UK in mind, backed up by the lessons of history

Albeit a bit socialist in approach when seen from some angles. Cue the usual suspects...

Don't people know best where to spend their money, not the government?

Maybe we're saying that as governments go, ours knows better than the EU?

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

Peston in the Spectator explaining the government's thinking

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-thinks-no-deal-might-be-worth-the-pain/amp

Sounds like some sensible long term thinking with the overall good of the UK in mind, backed up by the lessons of history

Albeit a bit socialist in approach when seen from some angles. Cue the usual suspects...

Just a teeny bit. We may as well have voted for Corbyn if this is all just to enable some nationalised version of Silicon Roundabout.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

Peston in the Spectator explaining the government's thinking

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-boris-thinks-no-deal-might-be-worth-the-pain/amp

Sounds like some sensible long term thinking with the overall good of the UK in mind, backed up by the lessons of history

Albeit a bit socialist in approach when seen from some angles. Cue the usual suspects...

Just a teeny bit. We may as well have voted for Corbyn if this is all just to enable some nationalised version of Silicon Roundabout.

I'm sure you wouldn't be saying that if it was an EU idea

rjsterry

If what was an EU idea? The ludicrous notion that we can somehow spend our way to become a tech world leader when we can't even get decent broadband to the whole of our capital city?

briantrumpet

rjsterry said:

If what was an EU idea? The ludicrous notion that we can somehow spend our way to become a tech world leader when we can't even get decent broadband to the whole of our capital city?

You don't understand ... it's been the EU that's stopped even that. Keep up!

rjsterry

They can't even get a basic tracing app or marking algorithm even half right. What possible hope do these people have of picking winners from a selection of tech startups?

tailwindhome

Honestly though.
Is everything ok over there?

briantrumpet

tailwindhome said:

Honestly though.
Is everything ok over there?

HahahahaFFS.

"The Prime Minister believes the UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement is legally ambiguous and would leave Northern Ireland isolated from the rest of the UK, something that was "unforeseen" when he agreed to it last year."

He should have bloody read Cake Stop then, if he's that dense.