BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Anyway, Frost has just done an interview, so I expect more outrage.0
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If we walk away can we tear up the WA?TheBigBean said:Anyway, Frost has just done an interview, so I expect more outrage.
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"David Frost told the Mail on Sunday the UK would leave the transition arrangement - which sees it follow many EU rules - "come what may" in December."surrey_commuter said:
If we walk away can we tear up the WA?TheBigBean said:Anyway, Frost has just done an interview, so I expect more outrage.
Yes. That's how it works. 🤔The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Maybe they think that annoying righties is a justification for keeping him.1
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No. Unless the UK wants to make a case that the EU is in breach, and then it gets suspended in the event of successful arbitration.surrey_commuter said:
If we walk away can we tear up the WA?TheBigBean said:Anyway, Frost has just done an interview, so I expect more outrage.
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Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).0 -
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).0 -
TheBigBean said:
No. Unless the UK wants to make a case that the EU is in breach, and then it gets suspended in the event of successful arbitration.surrey_commuter said:
If we walk away can we tear up the WA?TheBigBean said:Anyway, Frost has just done an interview, so I expect more outrage.
Would seem to be worth a try if we walk away0 -
surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.0 -
If you ignore pensions, by the end of the transition period, the UK's financial obligations won't be that big, so I'm not sure there would be that much to be gained.surrey_commuter said:TheBigBean said:
No. Unless the UK wants to make a case that the EU is in breach, and then it gets suspended in the event of successful arbitration.surrey_commuter said:
If we walk away can we tear up the WA?TheBigBean said:Anyway, Frost has just done an interview, so I expect more outrage.
Would seem to be worth a try if we walk away
There are objections to minor things like the geographical indicators, but the bigger stuff around citizens rights is agreed.
There is the NI matter too, but I don't think suspending the agreement will help with that.
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A thread from Katya Adler that would suggest that Stevo’s view of Barnier is the opposite of how he is seen by his employers - i.e. They think he is being, if anything, too flexible.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Frost seems to have forgotten that it was he and Johnson who 'blinked' when they concluded the WA.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I have read reports that the geographical indicators may not be such a minor thing with the US seeing them as a non-tariff barrier.TheBigBean said:
If you ignore pensions, by the end of the transition period, the UK's financial obligations won't be that big, so I'm not sure there would be that much to be gained.surrey_commuter said:TheBigBean said:
No. Unless the UK wants to make a case that the EU is in breach, and then it gets suspended in the event of successful arbitration.surrey_commuter said:
If we walk away can we tear up the WA?TheBigBean said:Anyway, Frost has just done an interview, so I expect more outrage.
Would seem to be worth a try if we walk away
There are objections to minor things like the geographical indicators, but the bigger stuff around citizens rights is agreed.
There is the NI matter too, but I don't think suspending the agreement will help with that.0 -
Not sure we have moved on from the Greek bloke who wrote a book about him being the world’s best negotiator and that when you are fooked you need to convince the other side you are a madman and so might make bad decisions.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.0 -
If you mean Varoufakis, that was not what he said. He said that they reallyactually needed to believe that crashing out of the Euro would be better than the consequences of staying in. He did. His PM claimed he did, then caved when the pressure came on (for better or worse).surrey_commuter said:
Not sure we have moved on from the Greek bloke who wrote a book about him being the world’s best negotiator and that when you are fooked you need to convince the other side you are a madman and so might make bad decisions.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.0 -
The consistent opinion I read is that Barnier doesn't really believe the negotiating guidelines from the EU are possible and wants some high level discussion. That would be consistent with the above, but also consistent with the idea he is being sidelined if you put a bit of spin on it.rjsterry said:A thread from Katya Adler that would suggest that Stevo’s view of Barnier is the opposite of how he is seen by his employers - i.e. They think he is being, if anything, too flexible.
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If you've read the Telegraph report, it's suggesting that both Frost and Barnier would be sidelined, but the source is just 'one EU diplomat', so who knows what the truth is...TheBigBean said:
The consistent opinion I read is that Barnier doesn't really believe the negotiating guidelines from the EU are possible and wants some high level discussion. That would be consistent with the above, but also consistent with the idea he is being sidelined if you put a bit of spin on it.rjsterry said:A thread from Katya Adler that would suggest that Stevo’s view of Barnier is the opposite of how he is seen by his employers - i.e. They think he is being, if anything, too flexible.
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There is nothing happening and print journalism is facing a financial crunch. Hence journo's writting anything that pays the rent.0
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Proximity is a poor excuse. I don't recall any previous trade deals being pulled or altered by the EU because of the distance of the other party.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Proximity is a poor excuse. I don't recall any previous trade deals being pulled or altered by the EU because of the distance of the other party.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.
Well, poor excuse or not, they've been clear about it since at least February. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/19/brexit-deal-different-ball-game-canada-agreement-eu-uk-brussels-trade0 -
So you're not disagreeing that its a poor excuse.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Proximity is a poor excuse. I don't recall any previous trade deals being pulled or altered by the EU because of the distance of the other party.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.
Well, poor excuse or not, they've been clear about it since at least February. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/19/brexit-deal-different-ball-game-canada-agreement-eu-uk-brussels-trade
I'm sure the UK has been clear on a few points related to Brexit for while that you think are wrong, but not sure they get a free pass."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I still don’t get this argument. It is not like a legal precedent, they can do whatever they want. They said it in February so that means it is right to say that is their position.Stevo_666 said:
So you're not disagreeing that its a poor excuse.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Proximity is a poor excuse. I don't recall any previous trade deals being pulled or altered by the EU because of the distance of the other party.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.
Well, poor excuse or not, they've been clear about it since at least February. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/19/brexit-deal-different-ball-game-canada-agreement-eu-uk-brussels-trade
I'm sure the UK has been clear on a few points related to Brexit for while that you think are wrong, but not sure they get a free pass.0 -
Not quite, they have made the following legal commitment.surrey_commuter said:
I still don’t get this argument. It is not like a legal precedent, they can do whatever they want. They said it in February so that means it is right to say that is their position.Stevo_666 said:
So you're not disagreeing that its a poor excuse.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Proximity is a poor excuse. I don't recall any previous trade deals being pulled or altered by the EU because of the distance of the other party.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.
Well, poor excuse or not, they've been clear about it since at least February. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/19/brexit-deal-different-ball-game-canada-agreement-eu-uk-brussels-trade
I'm sure the UK has been clear on a few points related to Brexit for while that you think are wrong, but not sure they get a free pass.The Union and the United Ki ngdom shall use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration of 17 October 2019 and to conduct the relevant procedures for the ratification or conclusion of those agreements, with a view to ensuring that those agreements apply, to the extent possible, as from the end of the transition period. 2870 -
I think the PD has a commitment to level playing field provisions as well. But let's keep whingeing that they won't give us what they gave Canada as if that will change anyone's mind.TheBigBean said:
Not quite, they have made the following legal commitment.surrey_commuter said:
I still don’t get this argument. It is not like a legal precedent, they can do whatever they want. They said it in February so that means it is right to say that is their position.Stevo_666 said:
So you're not disagreeing that its a poor excuse.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Proximity is a poor excuse. I don't recall any previous trade deals being pulled or altered by the EU because of the distance of the other party.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.
Well, poor excuse or not, they've been clear about it since at least February. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/19/brexit-deal-different-ball-game-canada-agreement-eu-uk-brussels-trade
I'm sure the UK has been clear on a few points related to Brexit for while that you think are wrong, but not sure they get a free pass.The Union and the United Ki ngdom shall use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration of 17 October 2019 and to conduct the relevant procedures for the ratification or conclusion of those agreements, with a view to ensuring that those agreements apply, to the extent possible, as from the end of the transition period. 2871985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It does, but the EU's interpretation of it is apparently quite generous especially in light of amendments to earlier drafts.rjsterry said:
I think the PD has a commitment to level playing field provisions as well. But let's keep whingeing that they won't give us what they gave Canada as if that will change anyone's mind.TheBigBean said:
Not quite, they have made the following legal commitment.surrey_commuter said:
I still don’t get this argument. It is not like a legal precedent, they can do whatever they want. They said it in February so that means it is right to say that is their position.Stevo_666 said:
So you're not disagreeing that its a poor excuse.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Proximity is a poor excuse. I don't recall any previous trade deals being pulled or altered by the EU because of the distance of the other party.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t get this argument that because they have given a comprehensive FTA to other countries then they should do so for us.spatt77 said:
Of course we only want the cake that the EU already sell to Canada, South Korea and Japan!surrey_commuter said:
I think it is a case of the EU not caring about our position and being wound up by posturing intended for a UK audience, the most obvious being “cake and eat it”Stevo_666 said:
I reckon that he does not properly 'get' the EU position, but by the same token the EU still do not properly get our position either. But I'm speculating.surrey_commuter said:
So you think he does not get the EU position or does not realise the relative weakness of his position.Stevo_666 said:
Not so much rogue as maybe too intransigent or has rubbed up our side the wrong way too often?surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is why everybody is so sure that Barnier is a rogue operator and is not just following ordersStevo_666 said:Not long ago I suggested that the EU fires Barnier to make some progress in the talks. OK, the EU never fires anyone for doing a bad job so this looks like this is the closest they will get to it:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/04/exclusive-michel-barnier-sidelined-eu-leaders-bid-break-brexit/
As its probably paywalled, here's a quote:
"European Union chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier is set to be sidelined by EU leaders in a bid to get a breakthrough in the negotiations about a trade treaty with the UK.
Representatives of the bloc’s 27 member states expect Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, to pave the way for heads of state and government to intervene in the deadlocked talks in a September 16 flagship speech."
Genuine question - do you think Boris wants a meaningful deal?
I think Boris wants one but on certain terms. Not too far from what the EU wants generally in my view (although clearly they want different specific things).
And the EU have (if memory serves correctly) explicitly discounted from the very beginning) this given our proximity.
We don't seem to have moved on far from the "We want to have our cake & eat it!" "We won't give you that." stand off, but with Johnson/Frost trying to make the "We'll walk away" threat believable.
Well, poor excuse or not, they've been clear about it since at least February. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/19/brexit-deal-different-ball-game-canada-agreement-eu-uk-brussels-trade
I'm sure the UK has been clear on a few points related to Brexit for while that you think are wrong, but not sure they get a free pass.The Union and the United Ki ngdom shall use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration of 17 October 2019 and to conduct the relevant procedures for the ratification or conclusion of those agreements, with a view to ensuring that those agreements apply, to the extent possible, as from the end of the transition period. 2870 -
The galaxy big brains are at it again
Lol
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
tailwindhome said:
The galaxy big brains are at it again
Lol
And so we're back about 1500 pages in this thread, and the impossibility of squaring that circle. I imagine that the EU and Ireland might have some views on it... talk about groundhog day...0 -
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