BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Rick Chasey wrote:It is a straw man Stevo.
I don't think everyone who sees an immigration problem sees the problem as 'not being fair in our treatment of Europeans versus the rest of the world', and entirely around ' I think there are too many non-British people coming to Britain' regardless of whether they're European or not.
And the point is, we are all human beings, and without immigrants our country would be poorer economically and socially. No matter where they come from.
The whole thing is vile and frankly anyone who supports what the Tories have been doing recently is a tosser.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Joelsim wrote:Joelsim wrote:An excellent piece on some of the challenges ahead. And a piece from Merkel that supports it.
Basically what I've been banging on (and on and on and on and on) about for months.
We hold almost no cards in negotiation. It's hard Brexit or no Brexit no matter which way we look at it.
If anyone's ever presented something to 27 people (who all have equal power of veto and completely different agendas) then you'll know just how hard this is going to be.
That's before considering a totally divided nation.
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/2 ... ritain-out
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... rns-merke/
BTW did anyone read these? Stevo? Comments and thoughts?
No, I didn't think so. No leg to stand on really have you.
I thought The Economist article is the best I have read on the subject.
Yes. A very well put article all about pragmatics with an interesting last couple of sentences with this analogy:
"Birmingham has more than once torn down its city centre, only to find the replacement unsatisfactory. There is a risk of something similar happening with Brexit".
Worth another read.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
The whole thing is pathetic and frankly anyone who supports it is a tosser.
What is it with some people on here with the labelling and name calling? :?
17 m tossers voted out then?
Instead of just calling them names, perhaps if politicians had engaged with people with concerns on immigration we would not be where we are at today. Gordon Brown and his bigoted woman spring to mind.
When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU for instance, did Blair not tell us that he expected the number of migrants to be quite few in number, which didn't turn out to be the case did it? A bit of honesty would have gone a long way perhaps.
In fact it was seen across Europe as a potential problem and nine of the 26 other member states imposed temporary restrictions on the kind of jobs they could take.
France, the Netherlands, and Belgium required that they obtain work permits.
Some people in this country felt that no one was listening to them and the only voice they had was to vote Brexit. I didn't agree with the way they voted but I made some attempt to understand their perspective rather than just call them names.
Similarly with the Scots referendum, I thought their best option was to remain as part of the UK but could see and understand why some people felt that they had been left with no voice and wanted out.
BTW as you pointed out in one of your links, 47% of remainers want controls of some kind on immigration. If they are also to be branded tossers, that makes over 25m of them.0 -
I just wonder if anyone on the Brexit side actually considered how much of a minefield of negotiating an exit is going to be.
I very much doubt it - 17 million of them or not.
"Some people in this country felt that no one was listening to them..." Diddums. The people get the government they deserve.
My council sold the Eco Deco waste plant to the general public of Dumfries and Galloway. I attended some of these meetings when the proposal was being put forward. The Eco Deco on it's own turned out to be a complete disaster and has cost us the tax payer millions but where were the voices against it? Not at the meetings I attended. Now they have made a complete U turn and decided to go down the separation at source route. Which is what we originally advocated and now the people are still complaining - the same people who had they complained about the problem in the first place, the Eco Deco plant would never have been built as an all singing all dancing unique solution and we could have spent a fraction of that money on a much better method of handling waste but we are still and will be paying for the consequences until 2027.
If the Eco Deco was run in conjunction with SAS, it would be revolutionary and this region would be amongst the highest recyclers in the UK but no, the Eco Deco is dead in the water and the current waste plan being metered out is entirely unsatisfactory. Baby and bathwater?
It's like the EU. People moaned about it. Not many turned out for MEP elections, few paid attention to the significance of the EU and then some tw@ts had bright ideas and decided it would be a good idea to ditch it altogether as if we had been lead up the garden path to being so inextricably linked with the EU.
This 17 million who voted to leave the EU, voted with rose tinted glasses fuelled by an underlying Xenophobia - that I have no doubt; in other words, lead by their dicks and not their heads.
Had the UKIPPERS and Eurosceptics spent all that time and energy improving the EU, we would be in a better position than we are now with probably greater controls over immigration.
I do so hope that May will be forced into accepting free movement. What a thumb in the eye that would be for the Brexiteers.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Why so surprised then that they voted for the first people that seemed to listen to them and care about their concerns."Some people in this country felt that no one was listening to them..." Diddums. The people get the government they deserve.
Will Brexit be hard? You betcha and I wish we weren't in this position. I think the PM accepting free movement would be politically unacceptable to the Brexiters, so realistically I think we are left with hard Brexit.
Eurosceptics trying to improve the EU? The EU is not for changing as it keeps demonstrating. We have always been viewed as a nuisance in the EU's ambition of political union.0 -
F**king hell, £ is really plummeting now (2 am). It's gone down €0.02 against the Euro and $0.03 in just a couple of hours. And no Tory politician has even opened his/her mouth since then. What'll it go down to when we actually get a hard Brexit? :evil:0
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We're back more or less.
Reports that it's a fat finger but I would be surprised; fx isn't susceptible to that, especially big currencies.
Suspect just low liquidity and a lot of shorts. Scramble to find more.
Worry is if it follows the equities pattern the low set during a flash crash it normally ends up back at that low within a month or so.0 -
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I think that Scotland should have voted out, and that whilst there would have been numerous disagreements, the rest of the UK would have handled it better than the rest of the EU is handling Brexit.0
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The EU is handling it better than Westminster.TheBigBean wrote:I think that Scotland should have voted out, and that whilst there would have been numerous disagreements, the rest of the UK would have handled it better than the rest of the EU is handling Brexit.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Theresa May hinting at hard Brexit did not help but I think the real killer is that "anti-business" seemed to be a conference theme.
Totally agree with somebody that we should keep name calling off this thread.0 -
To all those that cling to the belief that soft Brexit is the option we will go.
Matthew Parris, a fellow remainer, points out the logic of why hard Brexit is the path that will be chosen.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-hat ... -w8wwpq9fv0 -
Ballysmate wrote:The whole thing is pathetic and frankly anyone who supports it is a tosser.
What is it with some people on here with the labelling and name calling? :?
17 m tossers voted out then?
Instead of just calling them names, perhaps if politicians had engaged with people with concerns on immigration we would not be where we are at today. Gordon Brown and his bigoted woman spring to mind.
When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU for instance, did Blair not tell us that he expected the number of migrants to be quite few in number, which didn't turn out to be the case did it? A bit of honesty would have gone a long way perhaps.
In fact it was seen across Europe as a potential problem and nine of the 26 other member states imposed temporary restrictions on the kind of jobs they could take.
France, the Netherlands, and Belgium required that they obtain work permits.
Some people in this country felt that no one was listening to them and the only voice they had was to vote Brexit. I didn't agree with the way they voted but I made some attempt to understand their perspective rather than just call them names.
Similarly with the Scots referendum, I thought their best option was to remain as part of the UK but could see and understand why some people felt that they had been left with no voice and wanted out.
BTW as you pointed out in one of your links, 47% of remainers want controls of some kind on immigration. If they are also to be branded tossers, that makes over 25m of them.
My comment was directed at people of intelligence who are wilfully ignoring the fact that this government is demonstrating fascist behaviour, not those of little hope who think it can't possibly get any worse.
As well as dividing the country, vilifying foreigners who live and work here, alienating prospective foreign companies and investors, whilst at the same time trying to attract voters with the promise that they'll be looked after when it's pretty obvious they won't is a disgrace.
That's how fascism has always started historically.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:To all those that cling to the belief that soft Brexit is the option we will go.
Matthew Parris, a fellow remainer, points out the logic of why hard Brexit is the path that will be chosen.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-hat ... -w8wwpq9fv
There is no soft Brexit option. There never has been. The EU have made it pretty clear that freedom of movement is a pillar. Job done.0 -
Joelsim - do you think the same of every other country that has historically voted for independence?0
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TheBigBean wrote:Joelsim - do you think the same of every other country that has historically voted for independence?
No. Clearly every situation is different and can't be lumped in together.0 -
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Joelsim wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Joelsim - do you think the same of every other country that has historically voted for independence?
No. Clearly every situation is different and can't be lumped in together.
The issues surrounding most independence votes are pretty similar. Your reaction to them might be different.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:To all those that cling to the belief that soft Brexit is the option we will go.
Matthew Parris, a fellow remainer, points out the logic of why hard Brexit is the path that will be chosen.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-hat ... -w8wwpq9fv
behind the firewall - he is a good writer who has his finger on the Tory party pulse0 -
Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:The whole thing is pathetic and frankly anyone who supports it is a tosser.
What is it with some people on here with the labelling and name calling? :?
17 m tossers voted out then?
Instead of just calling them names, perhaps if politicians had engaged with people with concerns on immigration we would not be where we are at today. Gordon Brown and his bigoted woman spring to mind.
When Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU for instance, did Blair not tell us that he expected the number of migrants to be quite few in number, which didn't turn out to be the case did it? A bit of honesty would have gone a long way perhaps.
In fact it was seen across Europe as a potential problem and nine of the 26 other member states imposed temporary restrictions on the kind of jobs they could take.
France, the Netherlands, and Belgium required that they obtain work permits.
Some people in this country felt that no one was listening to them and the only voice they had was to vote Brexit. I didn't agree with the way they voted but I made some attempt to understand their perspective rather than just call them names.
Similarly with the Scots referendum, I thought their best option was to remain as part of the UK but could see and understand why some people felt that they had been left with no voice and wanted out.
BTW as you pointed out in one of your links, 47% of remainers want controls of some kind on immigration. If they are also to be branded tossers, that makes over 25m of them.
My comment was directed at people of intelligence who are wilfully ignoring the fact that this government is demonstrating fascist behaviour, not those of little hope who think it can't possibly get any worse.
As well as dividing the country, vilifying foreigners who live and work here, alienating prospective foreign companies and investors, whilst at the same time trying to attract voters with the promise that they'll be looked after when it's pretty obvious they won't is a disgrace.
That's how fascism has always started historically.
Facism is overstating it. To me it is dog whistle politics designed to keep the "swivel eyed loons" happy. This of course has it's dangers but May has left Brum in a stronger position with her own party.
I suspect that Amber Rudd is not very bright and will become the sacrificial lamb.0 -
Phillip Collins today hits the nail as well asking why it's suddenly OK to change all the policies of the government based on the referendum result.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comme ... -78rn2w33t0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:Phillip Collins today hits the nail as well asking why it's suddenly OK to change all the policies of the government based on the referendum result.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comme ... -78rn2w33t
I will check that out in print - but as a rule I object to musicians dabbling in politics0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:I suspect that Amber Rudd is not very bright and will become the sacrificial lamb.
Well, given that her opposite number is Diane Abbott, one of them needs to be replaced in order to get some sense spoken on at least one side of the chamber.
To be fair to Joelism, his comment on tossers was aimed at people supporting the Tories based on the stuff they spouted this week, not on referendum voters. Conference season is all about playing to to the crowd and making outraegous policy statements that they would never consider making in parliament - remember Cameron's promise to march people to the nearest cashpoint to pay their anti-social behaviour fines.
The media feedback once they get out of the conference bubble tends to temper their ambitions.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Phillip Collins today hits the nail as well asking why it's suddenly OK to change all the policies of the government based on the referendum result.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comme ... -78rn2w33t
I will check that out in print - but as a rule I object to musicians dabbling in politics
He's entitled to an opinion. You should object to the Times reporting it as insight.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:I suspect that Amber Rudd is not very bright and will become the sacrificial lamb.
She hasn't left many friends behind in the renewables industry, but that is a separate discussion.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:
Facism is overstating it. .
It probably is, but then again, Mein Kampf talks about the same policy about firms declaring how many non-domestic workers they employ, demanding that they should draw a distinction between the two types.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Phillip Collins today hits the nail as well asking why it's suddenly OK to change all the policies of the government based on the referendum result.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comme ... -78rn2w33t
I will check that out in print - but as a rule I object to musicians dabbling in politics
He's entitled to an opinion. You should object to the Times reporting it as insight.
he should be remembered for his best work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy52yueBX_s0
