BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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As for BoE independence: I guess it was never gonna last:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... ic-policy/0 -
Right. All the way back on page 3 of this thread I postedThe EU immigration is not a problem for me at all.
And this is still the case.
In another thread I posted that although there are things about the Eu that I am not happy with 'the medicine would be worse than the disease if we left'
viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13060592&hilit=medicine
A view I still hold.
BUT and it is a big BUT, We lost the argument and the referendum and as such we have to deal with it.
Soft Brexit where there is free movement and single market is acceptable to neither side is it, so WILL NOT HAPPEN.
That leaves the so called 'hard Brexit'
I can see no other option available to us, hence my post about the PM having no choice which path to persue, whoever was in office.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Right. All the way back on page 3 of this thread I postedThe EU immigration is not a problem for me at all.
And this is still the case.
In another thread I posted that although there are things about the Eu that I am not happy with 'the medicine would be worse than the disease if we left'
viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13060592&hilit=medicine
A view I still hold.
BUT and it is a big BUT, We lost the argument and the referendum and as such we have to deal with it.
Soft Brexit where there is free movement and single market is acceptable to neither side is it, so WILL NOT HAPPEN.
That leaves the so called 'hard Brexit'
I can see no other option available to us, hence my post about the PM having no choice which path to persue, whoever was in office.
No reason why Soft brexit isn't an option.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:My commuting friend from SurreyFor your question to work you would need to set a hypothetical scenario whereby we decide to accept 100,000 immigrants a year with no strings attached. You could then ask how people would decide where they came from and on the basis of their answer accuse them of bigotry.
That has not been the case at all. We have said to the people of 27 countries that they can come here, no strings attached.
But there are strings attached - they have to accept our labour, goods, services and capital.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Right. All the way back on page 3 of this thread I postedThe EU immigration is not a problem for me at all.
And this is still the case.
In another thread I posted that although there are things about the Eu that I am not happy with 'the medicine would be worse than the disease if we left'
viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13060592&hilit=medicine
A view I still hold.
BUT and it is a big BUT, We lost the argument and the referendum and as such we have to deal with it.
Soft Brexit where there is free movement and single market is acceptable to neither side is it, so WILL NOT HAPPEN.
That leaves the so called 'hard Brexit'
I can see no other option available to us, hence my post about the PM having no choice which path to persue, whoever was in office.
No reason why Soft brexit isn't an option.
Stay in the single market with no freedom of movement without paying in? I wish you were right but you are dreaming.0 -
Why is everyone so f*cking obsessed with limiting free movement?
Just accept all 4 and get on with it. Has anyone thought why they come as a package?
It's not designed as a stick with which to beat parochial countries.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Why is everyone so f*cking obsessed with limiting free movement?
Just accept all 4 and get on with it. Has anyone thought why they come as a package?
It's not designed as a stick with which to beat parochial countries.
I will say again in case you missed it.The EU immigration is not a problem for me at all
Free movement is not a problem for me at all. But my side lost didn't it.
The political reality is that it is a problem for a lot of people that voted for the winning side.
Oh and it appears, a problem for 47% of the remain side according to Joel's link.
That is the reality.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Bally is basically of the opinion that to solve a limp, it's best to hurt the other foot too.
So do you suggest we ignore the referendum result and refuse entry to qualified doctors from some countries based soley on their profession as Looky asked?
the ref was advisory, the Gov is saying it will be bad for the economy, a gov s job is to do the best for the country, May should should stand up, be a leader and say its bad to leave, apologise for Camerons decision and accept the flak.
if its too much to handle, call a GE and parties like UKIP can fight on exit of EU, they ll be no outlandish claims as in the referendum and we can all vote on the issues.0 -
Lookyhere wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Bally is basically of the opinion that to solve a limp, it's best to hurt the other foot too.
So do you suggest we ignore the referendum result and refuse entry to qualified doctors from some countries based soley on their profession as Looky asked?
the ref was advisory, the Gov is saying it will be bad for the economy, a gov s job is to do the best for the country, May should should stand up, be a leader and say its bad to leave, apologise for Camerons decision and accept the flak.
if its too much to handle, call a GE and parties like UKIP can fight on exit of EU, they ll be no outlandish claims as in the referendum and we can all vote on the issues.
You comfort yourself with the idea that it was only advisory. No leader of any main party has said or even intimated that they would go contrary to the result. No EU official or European leader has suggested that we may not leave.
Some people are clinging to that like a comfort blanket.
Political reality is somewhat different.0 -
Ballysmate - before the referendum, the Leave campaign told us that we could remain in the single market AND limit migration. Now the government has to choose which one of these it will try to do. It is under no obligation whatsoever to prioritise controlling migration. It could simply turn around and say "sorry, but if we limit migration, there is a very real risk that we will f**k up the economy. You were promised 2 things by the Leave campaign. We can only deliver 1 of them, and we're going to choose to remain in the single market. Sorry if you don't like this, but we weren't the ones who lied to you."0
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Ballysmate wrote:Free movement is not a problem for me at all. But my side lost didn't it.
The political reality is that it is a problem for a lot of people that voted for the winning side.
Oh and it appears, a problem for 47% of the remain side according to Joel's link.
That is the reality.
But on the leave side, there will be a proportion of those who voted that wanted rid of the political union because they are more libertarian, but would want fewer restrictions. Others who don't like the structures of the EU, but want something a bit like the EU but without the corruption. If that was even 3%, then there is a majority for keeping free movement. It doesn't matter what the "leaders" of the leave campaign wanted. There was not a majority vote for anything other than not remaining a member of the EU.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Worth a read. IMO it suggests that there is a hard-core of right wingers, so Tory and the more middle ground Ukippers, who'll happily pay to keep all immigrants out. Couple this with what we also know from Ashcroft, the disaffected poor who still think it can't possibly get any worse not being prepared/able to pay the personal price.
So, the latter are likely to be very transient in their support for May. i.e. Until it hits them shortly.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... ign=buffer
It reckons 47% of leavers also want less immigration.
I am having a really hard time understanding why anyone would want to pay 5% of their income just to make sure no more Poles or Estonians can come to the UK unless they were violently racist. Anyone?
There's only a very few things I would voluntarily spend 5% of my income on, and I think most of them have 2 wheels.Rick Chasey wrote:Whoever posted that South Park pic is bang on.
May's decided to go after the "they took er jeeeerbs" crowd.
If people already blame immigration incorrectly for things, then this rhetoric only makes it worse.
Ooh that was me. Do I get a prize?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Why is everyone so f*cking obsessed with limiting free movement?
Just accept all 4 and get on with it. Has anyone thought why they come as a package?
It's not designed as a stick with which to beat parochial countries.
Because that is what the vote was won on, the Leave brigade demonised migrants to the point that now a huge proportion of the public thinks it's a problem. If they could be bothered to read up on it they'd see that migrants are necessary and hugely benefit services and the economy.
So what we have is a govt that is continuing to fan the divisive flames.
The whole thing is unbelievably short sighted, political, foolish and abhorrent.0 -
IMHO it has got nothing to do with the referendum and everything to do with a small but powerful clique within the Tory Party who will stop at nothing to achieve Brexit. These people have fought for over two decades to get where we are, they have sacrificed leaders and their own Govts in their one eyed quest for Brexit.
With that as a background do you really think they are going to accept a soft Brexit which even to me seems like pretending to leave the EU. May and everybody else in the Tory Party knows that they will think nothing of bringing down the Govt.
The immigration debate has been lost. We have now moved on to whether we stay in the Customs Union and as Liam Fox will sign trade deals on the day we Brexit that does not look good either.0 -
And let's not forget. Free movement is a requisite for anything other than a hard Brexit.
So the people the Brexiteers can blame are the EU. No surprise that they've started demonising Europeans this week. It's foul.0 -
finchy wrote:Ballysmate - before the referendum, the Leave campaign told us that we could remain in the single market AND limit migration. Now the government has to choose which one of these it will try to do. It is under no obligation whatsoever to prioritise controlling migration. It could simply turn around and say "sorry, but if we limit migration, there is a very real risk that we will f**k up the economy. You were promised 2 things by the Leave campaign. We can only deliver 1 of them, and we're going to choose to remain in the single market. Sorry if you don't like this, but we weren't the ones who lied to you."
Some people may well have been duped by this, I agree. But it could never have been accepted as fact and only opinion.
Negotiations could and still can only be started after we signal our intention to leave, so what is or isn't available could only be stated as fact sometime later.
I hope you are right that there is a way to leave, causing as little damage as possible, but I can't see how.
Do you honestly think that coming back with any deal that doesn't limit migration would put the basis of our membership to bed for good. Not a chance.0 -
I'm not sure there is a soft Brexit option available. If, after the referendum result, or even before it, the EU had offered a soft option then it might have been accepted, but they didn't because the UK was perceived to have too many exemptions already. I'd be perfectly happy with an EU with lots of exemptions for all countries, but it doesn't fit the political dream.0
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Surrey Commuter wrote:IMHO it has got nothing to do with the referendum and everything to do with a small but powerful clique within the Tory Party who will stop at nothing to achieve Brexit. These people have fought for over two decades to get where we are, they have sacrificed leaders and their own Govts in their one eyed quest for Brexit.
With that as a background do you really think they are going to accept a soft Brexit which even to me seems like pretending to leave the EU. May and everybody else in the Tory Party knows that they will think nothing of bringing down the Govt.
The immigration debate has been lost. We have now moved on to whether we stay in the Customs Union and as Liam Fox will sign trade deals on the day we Brexit that does not look good either.
You reckon?
At the last election over 4m people, thats as many as the combined green/Libdem voted for a one trick pony UKIP. At the referendum 37% Labour voters voted out. It appears mostly from traditional Labour heartlands.
Castigate the Tories all you like but these figures should provide sobering thought.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:I'm not sure there is a soft Brexit option available. If, after the referendum result, or even before it, the EU had offered a soft option then it might have been accepted, but they didn't because the UK was perceived to have too many exemptions already. I'd be perfectly happy with an EU with lots of exemptions for all countries, but it doesn't fit the political dream.
I'd be happy with that.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:I'm not sure there is a soft Brexit option available. If, after the referendum result, or even before it, the EU had offered a soft option then it might have been accepted, but they didn't because the UK was perceived to have too many exemptions already. I'd be perfectly happy with an EU with lots of exemptions for all countries, but it doesn't fit the political dream.
Well. It doesn't work.
Within the UK union would it be acceptable for say, Yorkshire, to have an opt out on taking in anyone who isn't white Anglo-Saxon, or Cornwall having a lower tax rate?0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:IMHO it has got nothing to do with the referendum and everything to do with a small but powerful clique within the Tory Party who will stop at nothing to achieve Brexit. These people have fought for over two decades to get where we are, they have sacrificed leaders and their own Govts in their one eyed quest for Brexit.
With that as a background do you really think they are going to accept a soft Brexit which even to me seems like pretending to leave the EU. May and everybody else in the Tory Party knows that they will think nothing of bringing down the Govt.
The immigration debate has been lost. We have now moved on to whether we stay in the Customs Union and as Liam Fox will sign trade deals on the day we Brexit that does not look good either.
You reckon?
At the last election over 4m people, thats as many as the combined green/Libdem voted for a one trick pony UKIP. At the referendum 37% Labour voters voted out. It appears mostly from traditional Labour heartlands.
Castigate the Tories all you like but these figures should provide sobering thought.
back the bus up to why we had a referendum in the first place
Not really that sobering. 25% of the UK population voted out. Even if roughly half of that number did so out of a general fear of foreigners then it is about 10% of the population which sounds about right0 -
Joelsim wrote:TheBigBean wrote:I'm not sure there is a soft Brexit option available. If, after the referendum result, or even before it, the EU had offered a soft option then it might have been accepted, but they didn't because the UK was perceived to have too many exemptions already. I'd be perfectly happy with an EU with lots of exemptions for all countries, but it doesn't fit the political dream.
Well. It doesn't work.
Within the UK union would it be acceptable for say, Yorkshire, to have an opt out on taking in anyone who isn't white Anglo-Saxon, or Cornwall having a lower tax rate?
No on the basis of race, but many places in the world have residency restrictions in various places and it seems to work perfectly well.
The EU already has different taxation rates. Many countries around the world have different taxes in different regions. Doesn't the UK even have have tax incentives for the poorer regions?
On top of which there are plenty of by-laws and the like in the UK0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:IMHO it has got nothing to do with the referendum and everything to do with a small but powerful clique within the Tory Party who will stop at nothing to achieve Brexit. These people have fought for over two decades to get where we are, they have sacrificed leaders and their own Govts in their one eyed quest for Brexit.
With that as a background do you really think they are going to accept a soft Brexit which even to me seems like pretending to leave the EU. May and everybody else in the Tory Party knows that they will think nothing of bringing down the Govt.
The immigration debate has been lost. We have now moved on to whether we stay in the Customs Union and as Liam Fox will sign trade deals on the day we Brexit that does not look good either.
You reckon?
At the last election over 4m people, thats as many as the combined green/Libdem voted for a one trick pony UKIP. At the referendum 37% Labour voters voted out. It appears mostly from traditional Labour heartlands.
Castigate the Tories all you like but these figures should provide sobering thought.
back the bus up to why we had a referendum in the first place
Not really that sobering. 25% of the UK population voted out. Even if roughly half of that number did so out of a general fear of foreigners then it is about 10% of the population which sounds about right
:?: Are we to include infants now? How about those who were only conceived on the day of the vote, are they to be included in the stats?0 -
Joelsim wrote:TheBigBean wrote:I'm not sure there is a soft Brexit option available. If, after the referendum result, or even before it, the EU had offered a soft option then it might have been accepted, but they didn't because the UK was perceived to have too many exemptions already. I'd be perfectly happy with an EU with lots of exemptions for all countries, but it doesn't fit the political dream.
Well. It doesn't work.
Within the UK union would it be acceptable for say, Yorkshire, to have an opt out on taking in anyone who isn't white Anglo-Saxon, or Cornwall having a lower tax rate?
What, like the people of the old mill towns, Bradford, Halifax, Rotherham...
Or Scotland having its own legal legal system and the ability to levy its own rate of income tax. Oh .. er.. hang on ...0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:IMHO it has got nothing to do with the referendum and everything to do with a small but powerful clique within the Tory Party who will stop at nothing to achieve Brexit. These people have fought for over two decades to get where we are, they have sacrificed leaders and their own Govts in their one eyed quest for Brexit.
With that as a background do you really think they are going to accept a soft Brexit which even to me seems like pretending to leave the EU. May and everybody else in the Tory Party knows that they will think nothing of bringing down the Govt.
The immigration debate has been lost. We have now moved on to whether we stay in the Customs Union and as Liam Fox will sign trade deals on the day we Brexit that does not look good either.
You reckon?
At the last election over 4m people, thats as many as the combined green/Libdem voted for a one trick pony UKIP. At the referendum 37% Labour voters voted out. It appears mostly from traditional Labour heartlands.
Castigate the Tories all you like but these figures should provide sobering thought.
back the bus up to why we had a referendum in the first place
Not really that sobering. 25% of the UK population voted out. Even if roughly half of that number did so out of a general fear of foreigners then it is about 10% of the population which sounds about right
:?: Are we to include infants now? How about those who were only conceived on the day of the vote, are they to be included in the stats?
you are very negative - focus on the positive that probably only 10% of the population voted out based upon their prejudices against immigrants0 -
So, UKIP are now LITERALLY fighting amongst themselves.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
Indeed, hospitalised with a serious condition after an altercation at a meeting of UKIP MEPs.0
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I assume that as they all hate each other, we will find out who was responsible (if anyone).0
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Could well have been self abuse.KingstonGraham wrote:I assume that as they all hate each other, we will find out who was responsible (if anyone).0 -
Tricky, but not impossible, to punch one's own face. However, Ed Balls, now that is a face I could quite easily punch...0
