BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/28/fruit-and-veg-will-run-out-unless-britain-charters-planes-to-fly-in-farm-workers-from-eastern-europe

What's going on here? If we still need to fly in 90,000 farm workers when there are literally millions of British people not working, what was the point?

Possibly the usual unremitting positivity of the Guardian?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/hundreds-romanian-fruit-veg-pickers-flown-travel-restrictions/

Maybe not 90,000

Why is this in the Brexit thread? The travel restrictions are COVID related.

They're having to fly hundreds into the country despite the current restrictions because they can't get enough British people to do the work despite the tens of thousands who have lost their jobs in recent weeks is how I read it?

There was an argument by Brexit supporters that we didn't need EU immigrants other than cherry picking those who are highly skilled. British jobs for British workers and all that. This seems to suggest we'll still be reliant on 'unskilled' migrant workers.

OK, but its still in the wrong thread.

No it isn't.

I'll (selectively) quote myself. "What's going on here? If we still need to fly in farm workers when there are literally millions of British people not working, what was the point?"

This is entirely a Brexit related post.

surrey_commuter

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

You don’t remember the farming and imported labour discussions, Stevo?

I see the U.K. is still sticking to its - “done by 2020” position.

I guess the most optimistic way of reading that is to say the U.K. wants the EU to push for the extension for domestic optics, but it looks pretty stupid to me.

That is because you think Brexit is a bad idea.

Put yourself in their shoes - if you cared about the impact on the economy then you would not have supported it.

Arguably, if you care more about perception than any potentially negative impacts: Now is the perfect time, as any negative economic impacts will be difficult to distinguish from virus impacts.

I think all they care about is sovereignty. As most of the debate does not get above the length of queues at Dover now would be the perfect time

rick_chasey

UK has now said that even if EU asks for an extension the UK will refuse as the EU will get in the way of the corona recovery.

Beggars belief.

rjsterry

I think it's just strutting. It's Johnson's call and he's more than happy to go back on a promise or public statement.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

UK has now said that even if EU asks for an extension the UK will refuse as the EU will get in the way of the corona recovery.

Beggars belief.

Why?

If you have devoted your whole life to leaving the EU why would you risk it not happening?
If you genuinely believe Brexit is good for the UK economy why not press on?
Or option 3 they have made dumb decision after dumb decision, it beggars my belief that it beggars your belief that they have made another one.

pblakeney

Mindset.
If the EU ask for it then it must be rejected.

morstar

Alternative thinking, The entrepreneurial minded will be inclined to think the global economy is unsettled and full of opportunities/ gaps to exploit.
Ergo perfect time to leave.
It’s bold thinking but not wrong.
You just need to understand that Brexit is about leaving stability and structure behind to be an agile economy.

rick_chasey

It is almost impossible to conduct proper trade talks during coronavirus.

morstar

rick_chasey said:

It is almost impossible to conduct proper trade talks during coronavirus.

I agree. Just not convinced our lot care.
Brexit is far better positioned for success though with the global economy weakened and looking more inward.
A few months ago we were simply opting to make ourselves a smaller player in a stable world economy.
Now we could be nimble at a time of uncertainty.
Still don’t agree with it but the situation is clearly different.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

UK has now said that even if EU asks for an extension the UK will refuse as the EU will get in the way of the corona recovery.

Beggars belief.

Why?

If you have devoted your whole life to leaving the EU why would you risk it not happening?
If you genuinely believe Brexit is good for the UK economy why not press on?
Or option 3 they have made dumb decision after dumb decision, it beggars my belief that it beggars your belief that they have made another one.

Johnson hasn't devoted his whole life to leaving the EU. It was just a means to an end.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

UK has now said that even if EU asks for an extension the UK will refuse as the EU will get in the way of the corona recovery.

Beggars belief.

Why?

If you have devoted your whole life to leaving the EU why would you risk it not happening?
If you genuinely believe Brexit is good for the UK economy why not press on?
Or option 3 they have made dumb decision after dumb decision, it beggars my belief that it beggars your belief that they have made another one.

Johnson hasn't devoted his whole life to leaving the EU. It was just a means to an end.

The people surrounding him have

surrey_commuter

morstar said:

rick_chasey said:

It is almost impossible to conduct proper trade talks during coronavirus.

I agree. Just not convinced our lot care.
Brexit is far better positioned for success though with the global economy weakened and looking more inward.
A few months ago we were simply opting to make ourselves a smaller player in a stable world economy.
Now we could be nimble at a time of uncertainty.
Still don’t agree with it but the situation is clearly different.

I agree that based upon our negotiating stance our lot seem not to care about a deal.

I think the situation is markedly worse but that will make no difference.

I don’t see how a weakened, more inward looking global economy helps anybody

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

rick_chasey said:

It is almost impossible to conduct proper trade talks during coronavirus.

I agree. Just not convinced our lot care.
Brexit is far better positioned for success though with the global economy weakened and looking more inward.
A few months ago we were simply opting to make ourselves a smaller player in a stable world economy.
Now we could be nimble at a time of uncertainty.
Still don’t agree with it but the situation is clearly different.

I don’t see how a weakened, more inward looking global economy helps anybody

It scares me because I am risk averse by nature.
However, there are always opportunities in instability. Being agile and innovative is how businesses can be successful is such circumstances. This agility is one of the only actually coherent arguments for Brexit.
If we accept the economic harm is global. Britain will be harmed but could be proportionately less harmed if our response is agile.
I suspect that will be the Brexit mindset.

You seem to accept this is happening anyway so we have to see opportunities where they are.

pblakeney

morstar said:

If we accept the economic harm is global. Britain will be harmed but could be proportionately less harmed if our response is agile.

Have you observed any proof of agility in the past nigh on 4 years?

surrey_commuter

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

rick_chasey said:

It is almost impossible to conduct proper trade talks during coronavirus.

I agree. Just not convinced our lot care.
Brexit is far better positioned for success though with the global economy weakened and looking more inward.
A few months ago we were simply opting to make ourselves a smaller player in a stable world economy.
Now we could be nimble at a time of uncertainty.
Still don’t agree with it but the situation is clearly different.

I don’t see how a weakened, more inward looking global economy helps anybody

It scares me because I am risk averse by nature.
However, there are always opportunities in instability. Being agile and innovative is how businesses can be successful is such circumstances. This agility is one of the only actually coherent arguments for Brexit.
If we accept the economic harm is global. Britain will be harmed but could be proportionately less harmed if our response is agile.
I suspect that will be the Brexit mindset.

You seem to accept this is happening anyway so we have to see opportunities where they are.

I may accept it is happening but that does not mean I think it is a good idea. The opportunities will be dwarfed by the downside.

Make no mistake a global downturn and growing insularity is exceedingly bad news for a post Brexit UK

morstar

pblakeney said:

morstar said:

If we accept the economic harm is global. Britain will be harmed but could be proportionately less harmed if our response is agile.

Have you observed any proof of agility in the past nigh on 4 years?

Not at government level. But businesses can be agile. As proven in the last 6 weeks.

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

rick_chasey said:

It is almost impossible to conduct proper trade talks during coronavirus.

I agree. Just not convinced our lot care.
Brexit is far better positioned for success though with the global economy weakened and looking more inward.
A few months ago we were simply opting to make ourselves a smaller player in a stable world economy.
Now we could be nimble at a time of uncertainty.
Still don’t agree with it but the situation is clearly different.

I don’t see how a weakened, more inward looking global economy helps anybody

It scares me because I am risk averse by nature.
However, there are always opportunities in instability. Being agile and innovative is how businesses can be successful is such circumstances. This agility is one of the only actually coherent arguments for Brexit.
If we accept the economic harm is global. Britain will be harmed but could be proportionately less harmed if our response is agile.
I suspect that will be the Brexit mindset.

You seem to accept this is happening anyway so we have to see opportunities where they are.

I may accept it is happening but that does not mean I think it is a good idea. The opportunities will be dwarfed by the downside.

Make no mistake a global downturn and growing insularity is exceedingly bad news for a post Brexit UK

The downturn has/is happening regardless of Brexit.
The ability of businesses to respond with greater flexibility will benefit some.

I'm not arguing in favour of Brexit. The reality is that each business that benefits from leaving the Eu is contrasted by more that stand to lose out resulting in a net loss. However, we're leaving, the global economy is in flux and we need to be nimble to make the best of it.

Stevo_666

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

pblakeney

morstar said:

pblakeney said:

morstar said:

If we accept the economic harm is global. Britain will be harmed but could be proportionately less harmed if our response is agile.

Have you observed any proof of agility in the past nigh on 4 years?

Not at government level. But businesses can be agile. As proven in the last 6 weeks.

Separate issue. There was little stopping businesses being agile prior to 2016, or now.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

surrey_commuter

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

morstar said:

rick_chasey said:

It is almost impossible to conduct proper trade talks during coronavirus.

I agree. Just not convinced our lot care.
Brexit is far better positioned for success though with the global economy weakened and looking more inward.
A few months ago we were simply opting to make ourselves a smaller player in a stable world economy.
Now we could be nimble at a time of uncertainty.
Still don’t agree with it but the situation is clearly different.

I don’t see how a weakened, more inward looking global economy helps anybody

It scares me because I am risk averse by nature.
However, there are always opportunities in instability. Being agile and innovative is how businesses can be successful is such circumstances. This agility is one of the only actually coherent arguments for Brexit.
If we accept the economic harm is global. Britain will be harmed but could be proportionately less harmed if our response is agile.
I suspect that will be the Brexit mindset.

You seem to accept this is happening anyway so we have to see opportunities where they are.

I may accept it is happening but that does not mean I think it is a good idea. The opportunities will be dwarfed by the downside.

Make no mistake a global downturn and growing insularity is exceedingly bad news for a post Brexit UK

The downturn has/is happening regardless of Brexit.
The ability of businesses to respond with greater flexibility will benefit some.

I'm not arguing in favour of Brexit. The reality is that each business that benefits from leaving the Eu is contrasted by more that stand to lose out resulting in a net loss. However, we're leaving, the global economy is in flux and we need to be nimble to make the best of it.

Sorry thought you were arguing that Brexit would make us more nimble and therefore a global downturn and growing insularity made it a better time to leave

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

Bit of a leap from "a political project" to "superstate".

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

Bit of a leap from "a political project" to "superstate".

Would be just as easy to interpret the article as proof that any country can stop it. But then argument is only used to prove EU can’t get anything done.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

Bit of a leap from "a political project" to "superstate".

Would be just as easy to interpret the article as proof that any country can stop it. But then argument is only used to prove EU can’t get anything done.

I think it's Stevo confirming his prejudice.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

To be clear, you're not saying that that swung *you* away from voting Remain, right?

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

Bit of a leap from "a political project" to "superstate".

What is the 'political project' then, if not a superstate in some shape or form?

The EU already has a parliament, an supreme court, an anthem, a flag, a currency etc - a lot of the hallmarks of a state so the intentions to me are clear. They are also working on a common consolidated tax base which would effectively make corporate tax an EU matter rather than a national matter.

What Macron specifically asked for above is 'financial transfers' - which is effectively merging the finances of the EU countries. That is a major step towards what many regard as a superstate.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

Bit of a leap from "a political project" to "superstate".

What is the 'political project' then, if not a superstate in some shape or form?

The EU already has a parliament, an supreme court, an anthem, a flag, a currency etc - a lot of the hallmarks of a state so the intentions to me are clear. They are also working on a common consolidated tax base which would effectively make corporate tax an EU matter rather than a national matter.

What Macron specifically asked for above is 'financial transfers' - which is effectively merging the finances of the EU countries. That is a major step towards what many regard as a superstate.

Is it?

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

Bit of a leap from "a political project" to "superstate".

What is the 'political project' then, if not a superstate in some shape or form?

The EU already has a parliament, an supreme court, an anthem, a flag, a currency etc - a lot of the hallmarks of a state so the intentions to me are clear. They are also working on a common consolidated tax base which would effectively make corporate tax an EU matter rather than a national matter.

What Macron specifically asked for above is 'financial transfers' - which is effectively merging the finances of the EU countries. That is a major step towards what many regard as a superstate.

Is it?

Yes, on a macro level. It means member states sharing their debts - something which to date has not happened and is a major step away from the approach so far that each country manages their own.

It also necessitates a degree of common financial management. And from that, it will likely go further, as these things usually do in the EU.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Macron has said what a lot of people were already thinking:-
EU: Macron demands financial solidarity from Germany and Netherlands – says “we are at a moment of truth, which is to decide whether the European Union is a political project or just a market project. I think it is a political project…We need financial transfers and solidarity, if only so that Europe holds”.

Quite a high stakes gamble, but I think he has a point.

It is - and is something that has been denied as ever being the intention on here as I recall. Clearly there are different views between member states but I maintain my point that this was what the EU itself was always working towards.

Also I believe the superstate point was one that would have swung many away from voting remain - and some on here have said that, including me.

Bit of a leap from "a political project" to "superstate".

What is the 'political project' then, if not a superstate in some shape or form?

The EU already has a parliament, an supreme court, an anthem, a flag, a currency etc - a lot of the hallmarks of a state so the intentions to me are clear. They are also working on a common consolidated tax base which would effectively make corporate tax an EU matter rather than a national matter.

What Macron specifically asked for above is 'financial transfers' - which is effectively merging the finances of the EU countries. That is a major step towards what many regard as a superstate.

Is it?

Yes, on a macro level. It means member states sharing their debts - something which to date has not happened and is a major step away from the approach so far that each country manages their own.

I guess it is substantively different to the EFSF in that it is transfers rather than loans? Or because it is expected to be direct from Germany to Greece or through the EU instead of through the ECB?