BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    TheBigBean said:

    David Frost

    "It is very clear that a standard Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement, with other key agreements on issues like law enforcement, civil nuclear, and aviation alongside, all in line with the Political Declaration, could be agreed without major difficulties in the time available.

    "Both sides have tabled full legal texts, there are plenty of precedents, and there is clearly a good understanding between negotiators.

    “The major obstacle to this is the EU’s insistence on including a set of novel and unbalanced proposals on the so-called “level playing field” which would bind this country to EU law or standards, or determine our domestic legal regimes, in a way that is unprecedented in Free Trade Agreements and not envisaged in the Political Declaration.

    "As soon as the EU recognises that we will not conclude an agreement on that basis, we will be able to make progress.

    “Although we have had useful discussions on fisheries on the basis of our draft legal text, the EU continues to insist on fisheries arrangements and access to UK fishing waters in a way that is incompatible with our future status as an independent coastal state.

    "We are fully committed to agreeing fishing provisions in line with the Political Declaration, but we cannot agree arrangements that are manifestly unbalanced and against the interests of the UK fishing industry.

    “It is hard to understand why the EU insists on an ideological approach which makes it more difficult to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.

    "We very much need a change in EU approach for the next Round beginning on 1 June. In order to facilitate those discussions, we intend to make public all the UK draft legal texts during next week so that the EU’s Member States and interested observers can see our approach in detail.

    “The UK will continue to work hard to find an agreement, for as long as there is a constructive process in being, and continues to believe that this is possible.
    I'm glad David Frost is aligned to the Leave view :smile:

  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Never waste a crisis

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    tailwindhome said:

    Never waste a crisis

    I did read that quite a lot had been done. There are some high level political disagreements, but the UK government has done quite a bit of work on it.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,558
    edited May 2020
    Seems like Macron might get his way on EU post-Covid reconstruction funding.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    rjsterry said:

    Seems like Macron might get his way on EU post-Covid reconstruction funding.

    Waiting for Stevo to have it both ways again.

    Either the EU is imploding because it doesn't have the requisite integration to function properly, so the UK is better off leaving because it is dysfunctional, or the UK is better off leaving because it is integrating better and so inevitably will become a European Superstate which no-one wants.
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    rick_chasey said:

    rjsterry said:

    Seems like Macron might get his way on EU post-Covid reconstruction funding.

    Waiting for Stevo to have it both ways again.

    Either the EU is imploding because it doesn't have the requisite integration to function properly, so the UK is better off leaving because it is dysfunctional, or the UK is better off leaving because it is integrating better and so inevitably will become a European Superstate which no-one wants.
    Sadly your point is irrelevant as we have already left.

    But if you read back to earlier in this thread you'll find you were wrong about the first part of your assumption above about what my view was when this was still a point to be debated.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    Letter from Frost to Barnier (although aimed at everyone except him)

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886168/Letter_to_Michel_Barnier_19.05.20.pdf

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    Letter from Frost to Barnier (although aimed at everyone except him)

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886168/Letter_to_Michel_Barnier_19.05.20.pdf

    Good letter - thanks for posting

    To prove I read to the end it is interesting that "Sherpa" is an official title
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
    tariffs is a difficult one as if you don't have them high enough then why would anybody do a deal with you. But then having tariffs can be harmful to your industry. If the UK consumer ever figures out they are the ones paying the tariff things will get more complicated.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
    tariffs is a difficult one as if you don't have them high enough then why would anybody do a deal with you. But then having tariffs can be harmful to your industry. If the UK consumer ever figures out they are the ones paying the tariff things will get more complicated.
    I think the aim is to tax items where the UK consumer is the end user, and reduce taxes on items where they feed into the UK's potential competitiveness. Compare cars with screws, for example. Though of course, you could argue that cars are a cost to people doing business, so maybe something like Champagne is a better example.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    TheBigBean said:

    Letter from Frost to Barnier (although aimed at everyone except him)

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886168/Letter_to_Michel_Barnier_19.05.20.pdf

    A good letter IMO - sets out why we want a trade deal similar to those already done by the EU, while pointing out the flaws in the EU's reasons for wanting a say in UK laws and affairs as part of that deal (which do not generally apply to those other trade deals).
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
    tariffs is a difficult one as if you don't have them high enough then why would anybody do a deal with you. But then having tariffs can be harmful to your industry. If the UK consumer ever figures out they are the ones paying the tariff things will get more complicated.
    I think the aim is to tax items where the UK consumer is the end user, and reduce taxes on items where they feed into the UK's potential competitiveness. Compare cars with screws, for example. Though of course, you could argue that cars are a cost to people doing business, so maybe something like Champagne is a better example.
    Still think that eventually the public will realise that they are the ones paying tariffs and will stop cheering when they are imposed.

    No surprise that the beef barons have been protected which means one of my few benefits of Brexit has evaporated
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
    tariffs is a difficult one as if you don't have them high enough then why would anybody do a deal with you. But then having tariffs can be harmful to your industry. If the UK consumer ever figures out they are the ones paying the tariff things will get more complicated.
    I think the aim is to tax items where the UK consumer is the end user, and reduce taxes on items where they feed into the UK's potential competitiveness. Compare cars with screws, for example. Though of course, you could argue that cars are a cost to people doing business, so maybe something like Champagne is a better example.
    Still think that eventually the public will realise that they are the ones paying tariffs and will stop cheering when they are imposed.

    No surprise that the beef barons have been protected which means one of my few benefits of Brexit has evaporated
    Like all the VAT outrage?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Stevo_666 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Letter from Frost to Barnier (although aimed at everyone except him)

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886168/Letter_to_Michel_Barnier_19.05.20.pdf

    A good letter IMO - sets out why we want a trade deal similar to those already done by the EU, while pointing out the flaws in the EU's reasons for wanting a say in UK laws and affairs as part of that deal (which do not generally apply to those other trade deals).

    Three:Word:Slogan needed to get that message across to it’s intended audience
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Ah the genre of "it's not fair" arguments are beginning to come out in the spring again, I see.

    Shame they didn't really learn from UK history that in geopolitics, things rarely are.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    rick_chasey said:

    Ah the genre of "it's not fair" arguments are beginning to come out in the spring again, I see.

    Shame they didn't really learn from UK history that in geopolitics, things rarely are.

    My emphasis

    ARTICLE 184Negotiations on the future relationship
    The Union and the United Kingdom shall use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration of17 October 2019and to conduct the relevant procedures for the ratification or conclusion of those agreements, with a view to ensuring that those agreements apply, to the extent possible, as from the end of the transition period.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Ah the genre of "it's not fair" arguments are beginning to come out in the spring again, I see.

    Shame they didn't really learn from UK history that in geopolitics, things rarely are.

    My emphasis

    ARTICLE 184Negotiations on the future relationship
    The Union and the United Kingdom shall use their best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take the necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration of17 October 2019and to conduct the relevant procedures for the ratification or conclusion of those agreements, with a view to ensuring that those agreements apply, to the extent possible, as from the end of the transition period.
    would that be the legal declaration that our signatory has been publicly saying he will ignore the bits that he does not like?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
    tariffs is a difficult one as if you don't have them high enough then why would anybody do a deal with you. But then having tariffs can be harmful to your industry. If the UK consumer ever figures out they are the ones paying the tariff things will get more complicated.
    I think the aim is to tax items where the UK consumer is the end user, and reduce taxes on items where they feed into the UK's potential competitiveness. Compare cars with screws, for example. Though of course, you could argue that cars are a cost to people doing business, so maybe something like Champagne is a better example.
    Still think that eventually the public will realise that they are the ones paying tariffs and will stop cheering when they are imposed.

    No surprise that the beef barons have been protected which means one of my few benefits of Brexit has evaporated
    Like all the VAT outrage?
    eh?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
    tariffs is a difficult one as if you don't have them high enough then why would anybody do a deal with you. But then having tariffs can be harmful to your industry. If the UK consumer ever figures out they are the ones paying the tariff things will get more complicated.
    I think the aim is to tax items where the UK consumer is the end user, and reduce taxes on items where they feed into the UK's potential competitiveness. Compare cars with screws, for example. Though of course, you could argue that cars are a cost to people doing business, so maybe something like Champagne is a better example.
    Still think that eventually the public will realise that they are the ones paying tariffs and will stop cheering when they are imposed.

    No surprise that the beef barons have been protected which means one of my few benefits of Brexit has evaporated
    Like all the VAT outrage?
    eh?
    Imagine you are an easily outraged person looking to buy a car. The Britsh car has 20% VAT added and the German car has 20% VAT and 10% import duty. Do you get outraged by the VAT or the import duty? Do you campaign to reduce VAT on cars to compensate?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    That’s the thing with VAT being included in the shown price, the general public forget about it.
    Show both prices on everything and it might give pause for thought, especially with a new car.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Tariff changes

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52723104

    Some sensible simplifications

    Items on the list include pistachios, on which the tariff is so low it is more costly to collect than it is worth.

    Also covered will be goods which are not produced in the UK, items used in British manufacturers supply chains, such as screws, and those linked to energy efficiency, including thermostats.

    Other items will have tariffs simplified, and expressed in pounds instead of Euros.
    tariffs is a difficult one as if you don't have them high enough then why would anybody do a deal with you. But then having tariffs can be harmful to your industry. If the UK consumer ever figures out they are the ones paying the tariff things will get more complicated.
    I think the aim is to tax items where the UK consumer is the end user, and reduce taxes on items where they feed into the UK's potential competitiveness. Compare cars with screws, for example. Though of course, you could argue that cars are a cost to people doing business, so maybe something like Champagne is a better example.
    Still think that eventually the public will realise that they are the ones paying tariffs and will stop cheering when they are imposed.

    No surprise that the beef barons have been protected which means one of my few benefits of Brexit has evaporated
    Like all the VAT outrage?
    eh?
    Imagine you are an easily outraged person looking to buy a car. The Britsh car has 20% VAT added and the German car has 20% VAT and 10% import duty. Do you get outraged by the VAT or the import duty? Do you campaign to reduce VAT on cars to compensate?
    But if they stuck a 10% tax on all imported cars I would not expect people to celebrate.

    Stick it to JF by taxing new car purchases
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    Barnier responds. Not sure who is his intended audience.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/reply-michel-barnier-chief-negotiator-david-frost-uk-chief-negotiator-20-may-2020
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    Barnier responds. Not sure who is his intended audience.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/reply-michel-barnier-chief-negotiator-david-frost-uk-chief-negotiator-20-may-2020

    Wow!!!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    edited May 2020
    TheBigBean said:

    Barnier responds. Not sure who is his intended audience.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/reply-michel-barnier-chief-negotiator-david-frost-uk-chief-negotiator-20-may-2020

    Reads like a polite bitch (female dog) slap to me.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    pblakeney said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Barnier responds. Not sure who is his intended audience.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/reply-michel-barnier-chief-negotiator-david-frost-uk-chief-negotiator-20-may-2020

    Reads like a polite censored (female dog) slap to me.

    I was thinking of a headmaster’s putdown to a boy showing his inexperience by overstepping the mark.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    TheBigBean said:

    Barnier responds. Not sure who is his intended audience.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/reply-michel-barnier-chief-negotiator-david-frost-uk-chief-negotiator-20-may-2020

    The pressure is starting to tell. He knows the EU needs him to come back with something but is now finding a UK team who are no longer subservient as they were under Mays leadership.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,326
    Never mind the bollox, help elephants:

    https://www.ifaw.org/international
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    Listening to this is probably a better use of your time.
    Re Brexit, not the elephants obviously.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Barnier responds. Not sure who is his intended audience.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/reply-michel-barnier-chief-negotiator-david-frost-uk-chief-negotiator-20-may-2020

    Wow!!!
    Same old stuff.

    Does not appear to be any hint of real flexibility here. Also quite an ill-tempered response - he does not appear to like the EUs position being set out in the public domain like this, maybe a recognition that their position is inflexible and contradictory to other trade deals done by the EU.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]

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