BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Our current performance within the EU is the base measure. I.e. do we do better out than when in?Longshot said:
[Stevo_Mode] Was the EU's any better? [/Stevo_Mode]morstar said:Do we have a strong enough offering (or the ability to create one) to benefit more than we lose?
Now at worrying risk of debating how we measure post EU performance.
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why not measure performance prior to joining?morstar said:
Our current performance within the EU is the base measure. I.e. do we do better out than when in?Longshot said:
[Stevo_Mode] Was the EU's any better? [/Stevo_Mode]morstar said:Do we have a strong enough offering (or the ability to create one) to benefit more than we lose?
Now at worrying risk of debating how we measure post EU performance.0 -
My original point is getting lost.surrey_commuter said:
why not measure performance prior to joining?morstar said:
Our current performance within the EU is the base measure. I.e. do we do better out than when in?Longshot said:
[Stevo_Mode] Was the EU's any better? [/Stevo_Mode]morstar said:Do we have a strong enough offering (or the ability to create one) to benefit more than we lose?
Now at worrying risk of debating how we measure post EU performance.
Stevo is suggesting that the EU is performing badly on a global scale.
My original point is that even if we accept it is, it is quite possible EU countries could be faring even worse if they were outside the EU. It’s perfectly possible it is successfully mitigating significant threats.
I’m not arguing the point either way, just offering balance to the suggestion the EU area is performing badly.
The UK has an opportunity to establish whether Eu membership helps or hinders.0 -
Being fairly Keynesian, id suggest it’s because Europe is still suffering from its decision not to engage counter cyclical fiscal policy as a reaction to the crash (states and China did) and it has more challenging demographics than both those superpowers too.
But then I would say that as it touches on multiple hobby horses of mine.0 -
Many think that Trump’s multi trillion $ fiscal boost is the most dangerous thing he has done, it is now unwinding with no apparent long term gain. It could be used as another example of the failure of Keynesianism.rick_chasey said:Being fairly Keynesian, id suggest it’s because Europe is still suffering from its decision not to engage counter cyclical fiscal policy as a reaction to the crash (states and China did) and it has more challenging demographics than both those superpowers too.
But then I would say that as it touches on multiple hobby horses of mine.
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I think we all know that despite being a staunch Remainer SteveO has never seen anything positive in the EU and that is highly unlikely to change.morstar said:
My original point is getting lost.surrey_commuter said:
why not measure performance prior to joining?morstar said:
Our current performance within the EU is the base measure. I.e. do we do better out than when in?Longshot said:
[Stevo_Mode] Was the EU's any better? [/Stevo_Mode]morstar said:Do we have a strong enough offering (or the ability to create one) to benefit more than we lose?
Now at worrying risk of debating how we measure post EU performance.
Stevo is suggesting that the EU is performing badly on a global scale.
My original point is that even if we accept it is, it is quite possible EU countries could be faring even worse if they were outside the EU. It’s perfectly possible it is successfully mitigating significant threats.
I’m not arguing the point either way, just offering balance to the suggestion the EU area is performing badly.
The UK has an opportunity to establish whether Eu membership helps or hinders.
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Can't you read a few posts up? On the last page I asked you this:rick_chasey said:What's the question? I'm very confused. You start confusing correlations with causation and then you start saying "answer the question".
"Why do you think the EU is performing relatively poorly in terms of growth and unemployment?"
Then maybe we can have a sensible conversation.
You're not disputing the facts: there must be reasons for the lower growth and higher unemployment, but you seem unwilling or unable to put forward your explanations."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Not sure you can say trump’s fiscal boost was counter cyclical?surrey_commuter said:
Many think that Trump’s multi trillion $ fiscal boost is the most dangerous thing he has done, it is now unwinding with no apparent long term gain. It could be used as another example of the failure of Keynesianism.rick_chasey said:Being fairly Keynesian, id suggest it’s because Europe is still suffering from its decision not to engage counter cyclical fiscal policy as a reaction to the crash (states and China did) and it has more challenging demographics than both those superpowers too.
But then I would say that as it touches on multiple hobby horses of mine.0 -
Also if anyone else want to have a go at answering what Rick is dodging, please do. The lack of attempted answers is quite interesting "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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I’m not saying I know. You are and you, but you can’t point to any evidence.Stevo_666 said:
Can't you read a few posts up? On the last page I asked you this:rick_chasey said:What's the question? I'm very confused. You start confusing correlations with causation and then you start saying "answer the question".
"Why do you think the EU is performing relatively poorly in terms of growth and unemployment?"
Then maybe we can have a sensible conversation.
You're not disputing the facts: there must be reasons for the lower growth and higher unemployment, but you seem unwilling or unable to put forward your explanations.0 -
We're older than America or China for one. Just under 20% 65 or over, versus 15% for the US and 12% for China. RC mentioned this. That's a lot of extra pensioners.Stevo_666 said:
Can't you read a few posts up? On the last page I asked you this:rick_chasey said:What's the question? I'm very confused. You start confusing correlations with causation and then you start saying "answer the question".
"Why do you think the EU is performing relatively poorly in terms of growth and unemployment?"
Then maybe we can have a sensible conversation.
You're not disputing the facts: there must be reasons for the lower growth and higher unemployment, but you seem unwilling or unable to put forward your explanations.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The impact of the single currency is pretty well documented. A quick search on goodle should be fine to show you what you need to know, but since you are either lazy or in denial, here a couple of starters for 10:rick_chasey said:
I’m not saying I know. You are and you, but you can’t point to any evidence.Stevo_666 said:
Can't you read a few posts up? On the last page I asked you this:rick_chasey said:What's the question? I'm very confused. You start confusing correlations with causation and then you start saying "answer the question".
"Why do you think the EU is performing relatively poorly in terms of growth and unemployment?"
Then maybe we can have a sensible conversation.
You're not disputing the facts: there must be reasons for the lower growth and higher unemployment, but you seem unwilling or unable to put forward your explanations.
https://gefira.org/en/2016/11/19/high-treason-how-the-euro-destroyed-the-economies-of-southern-europe-with-the-complacency-of-their-ruling-classes/
https://theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/10/joseph-stiglitz-the-problem-with-europe-is-the-euro
Now can you answer my question? Third time of asking.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Since you seem to know everything, why don't you answer my question? I asked you before and you dodged it like Rick did. Wonder why?surrey_commuter said:
I think we all know that despite being a staunch Remainer SteveO has never seen anything positive in the EU and that is highly unlikely to change.morstar said:
My original point is getting lost.surrey_commuter said:
why not measure performance prior to joining?morstar said:
Our current performance within the EU is the base measure. I.e. do we do better out than when in?Longshot said:
[Stevo_Mode] Was the EU's any better? [/Stevo_Mode]morstar said:Do we have a strong enough offering (or the ability to create one) to benefit more than we lose?
Now at worrying risk of debating how we measure post EU performance.
Stevo is suggesting that the EU is performing badly on a global scale.
My original point is that even if we accept it is, it is quite possible EU countries could be faring even worse if they were outside the EU. It’s perfectly possible it is successfully mitigating significant threats.
I’m not arguing the point either way, just offering balance to the suggestion the EU area is performing badly.
The UK has an opportunity to establish whether Eu membership helps or hinders."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Rick gave you two suggestions, which you seem to be trying hard to miss. The euro has its downsides for sure but Italy has and had plenty of other problems besides. They've have had 61 different governments since 1945.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Is the correct answer that it's impossible to know whether the euro has caused issues in Italy, as there is no carbon copy of the country which then didn't join the euro.
The Euro is an interesting topic, I'd say its pretty impressive how it's weathered the various storms so far.1 -
I already haveStevo_666 said:
Since you seem to know everything, why don't you answer my question? I asked you before and you dodged it like Rick did. Wonder why?surrey_commuter said:
I think we all know that despite being a staunch Remainer SteveO has never seen anything positive in the EU and that is highly unlikely to change.morstar said:
My original point is getting lost.surrey_commuter said:
why not measure performance prior to joining?morstar said:
Our current performance within the EU is the base measure. I.e. do we do better out than when in?Longshot said:
[Stevo_Mode] Was the EU's any better? [/Stevo_Mode]morstar said:Do we have a strong enough offering (or the ability to create one) to benefit more than we lose?
Now at worrying risk of debating how we measure post EU performance.
Stevo is suggesting that the EU is performing badly on a global scale.
My original point is that even if we accept it is, it is quite possible EU countries could be faring even worse if they were outside the EU. It’s perfectly possible it is successfully mitigating significant threats.
I’m not arguing the point either way, just offering balance to the suggestion the EU area is performing badly.
The UK has an opportunity to establish whether Eu membership helps or hinders.0 -
Could easily be argued that the economy was due to slow.rick_chasey said:
Not sure you can say trump’s fiscal boost was counter cyclical?surrey_commuter said:
Many think that Trump’s multi trillion $ fiscal boost is the most dangerous thing he has done, it is now unwinding with no apparent long term gain. It could be used as another example of the failure of Keynesianism.rick_chasey said:Being fairly Keynesian, id suggest it’s because Europe is still suffering from its decision not to engage counter cyclical fiscal policy as a reaction to the crash (states and China did) and it has more challenging demographics than both those superpowers too.
But then I would say that as it touches on multiple hobby horses of mine.
Interesting that $2trn did not buy lasting economic improvements.
Probably not a surprise how unbothered Trump is about the debt.
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So two things.surrey_commuter said:
Could easily be argued that the economy was due to slow.rick_chasey said:
Not sure you can say trump’s fiscal boost was counter cyclical?surrey_commuter said:
Many think that Trump’s multi trillion $ fiscal boost is the most dangerous thing he has done, it is now unwinding with no apparent long term gain. It could be used as another example of the failure of Keynesianism.rick_chasey said:Being fairly Keynesian, id suggest it’s because Europe is still suffering from its decision not to engage counter cyclical fiscal policy as a reaction to the crash (states and China did) and it has more challenging demographics than both those superpowers too.
But then I would say that as it touches on multiple hobby horses of mine.
Interesting that $2trn did not buy lasting economic improvements.
Probably not a surprise how unbothered Trump is about the debt.
1) the bold bit is *very* debatable. Pretty sure the entire debate was actually around if it would overheat the economy to the point of no return or not.
2) execution of stimulus is critical to its success or failure. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that stimulating the most well off has the least multiplier effect, nor that they will have 'lasting economic improvements'.0 -
Hard to debate this as I believe in small Govt and living within your means. If you are going to borrow gigantic sums I do not really care what you do with it.rick_chasey said:
So two things.surrey_commuter said:
Could easily be argued that the economy was due to slow.rick_chasey said:
Not sure you can say trump’s fiscal boost was counter cyclical?surrey_commuter said:
Many think that Trump’s multi trillion $ fiscal boost is the most dangerous thing he has done, it is now unwinding with no apparent long term gain. It could be used as another example of the failure of Keynesianism.rick_chasey said:Being fairly Keynesian, id suggest it’s because Europe is still suffering from its decision not to engage counter cyclical fiscal policy as a reaction to the crash (states and China did) and it has more challenging demographics than both those superpowers too.
But then I would say that as it touches on multiple hobby horses of mine.
Interesting that $2trn did not buy lasting economic improvements.
Probably not a surprise how unbothered Trump is about the debt.
1) the bold bit is *very* debatable. Pretty sure the entire debate was actually around if it would overheat the economy to the point of no return or not.
2) execution of stimulus is critical to its success or failure. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that stimulating the most well off has the least multiplier effect, nor that they will have 'lasting economic improvements'.
Trump (at great cost) has managed to take the period of economic growth to record lengths.0 -
Surely you should care *even more* what is done with it?
Out of interest, how do you explain how the world got out of the great depression, if it wasn't stimulus?0 -
rearmamentrick_chasey said:Surely you should care *even more* what is done with it?
Out of interest, how do you explain how the world got out of the great depression, if it wasn't stimulus?
I believe that Govt attempts to rebalance the economy will come to nothing. What they could do is not return to the HoP and instead create a political capital in the north.0 -
Is rearmament not stimulus?
Anyway....I don't think anything has changed with the gov'ts approach; talk aggressively, surrender on stuff people don't immediately understand.0 -
If you borrow money in order to give it to people who aren't immediately going to spend it, that is not going to have the effect that those doing it claim to believe in. It's another example of bad faith arguments, that it takes a certain level of shamelessness to pull off, but if you can, then you are impervious to any criticism.0
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Partly. But have a look at when lots of public buildings and infrastructure were built.surrey_commuter said:
rearmamentrick_chasey said:Surely you should care *even more* what is done with it?
Out of interest, how do you explain how the world got out of the great depression, if it wasn't stimulus?
I believe that Govt attempts to rebalance the economy will come to nothing. What they could do is not return to the HoP and instead create a political capital in the north.
On Johnson's "leveling up" NIESR thinks it would take him a decade to get there at the rates he's suggested. If he actually sticks at it.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I have to confess that I do not read much of what the lying toad says, so I have no idea of what he aspires to have done in 10 years time.rjsterry said:
Partly. But have a look at when lots of public buildings and infrastructure were built.surrey_commuter said:
rearmamentrick_chasey said:Surely you should care *even more* what is done with it?
Out of interest, how do you explain how the world got out of the great depression, if it wasn't stimulus?
I believe that Govt attempts to rebalance the economy will come to nothing. What they could do is not return to the HoP and instead create a political capital in the north.
On Johnson's "leveling up" NIESR thinks it would take him a decade to get there at the rates he's suggested. If he actually sticks at it.
Whatever the promises I do not believe that Govt is efficient at spending other peoples money to improve the economy.
I fully concede there are exceptions such as regenerating the car industry but I suspect that this was done piecemeal rather than a masterplan.0 -
If he did they were very subtle - I noticed no direct attempt to answer.rjsterry said:Rick gave you two suggestions, which you seem to be trying hard to miss. The euro has its downsides for sure but Italy has and had plenty of other problems besides. They've have had 61 different governments since 1945.
I guess getting people on here to look at why the EU economic performance is relatively poor is a sore point because it undermines some of their other arguments on here."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Just saying they are 'mature economies' is not an explanation. Care to expand on that and show some evidence to back that up?surrey_commuter said:
I already haveStevo_666 said:
Since you seem to know everything, why don't you answer my question? I asked you before and you dodged it like Rick did. Wonder why?surrey_commuter said:
I think we all know that despite being a staunch Remainer SteveO has never seen anything positive in the EU and that is highly unlikely to change.morstar said:
My original point is getting lost.surrey_commuter said:
why not measure performance prior to joining?morstar said:
Our current performance within the EU is the base measure. I.e. do we do better out than when in?Longshot said:
[Stevo_Mode] Was the EU's any better? [/Stevo_Mode]morstar said:Do we have a strong enough offering (or the ability to create one) to benefit more than we lose?
Now at worrying risk of debating how we measure post EU performance.
Stevo is suggesting that the EU is performing badly on a global scale.
My original point is that even if we accept it is, it is quite possible EU countries could be faring even worse if they were outside the EU. It’s perfectly possible it is successfully mitigating significant threats.
I’m not arguing the point either way, just offering balance to the suggestion the EU area is performing badly.
The UK has an opportunity to establish whether Eu membership helps or hinders."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
If he did they were very subtle - I noticed no direct attempt to answer.rjsterry said:Rick gave you two suggestions, which you seem to be trying hard to miss. The euro has its downsides for sure but Italy has and had plenty of other problems besides. They've have had 61 different governments since 1945.
I guess getting people on here to look at why the EU economic performance is relatively poor is a sore point because it undermines some of their other arguments on here.rick_chasey said:Being fairly Keynesian, id suggest it’s because Europe is still suffering from its decision not to engage counter cyclical fiscal policy as a reaction to the crash (states and China did) and it has more challenging demographics than both those superpowers too.
But then I would say that as it touches on multiple hobby horses of mine.0
