BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

Stevo_666

Interesting fact that the UK has already done 20 separate trade deals covering 50 countries, based on the arrangements that the EU had with these countries.
https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842

This represents around 75% of the EUs trade deals at the time the data was compiled.

Pross

So if I'm reading that correctly we previously had 11% of all our trade through 100% of those EU agreements and we have therefore lost 25% of them along with, potentially, the 50% or so of our overall trade that was with the EU. 🤔

Stevo_666

Pross said:

So if I'm reading that correctly we previously had 11% of all our trade through 100% of those EU agreements and we have therefore lost 25% of them along with, potentially, the 50% or so of our overall trade that was with the EU. 🤔

We haven't finished yet - and not bad going considering we've only been 'out' for 3 days

What makes you think we will stop trading with the EU if we don't get a trade deal with them? We export more to the US than any other country and have no trade deal with them - yet.

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

kingstongraham

I think we all knew that Brexit would be declared a success if we weren't all eating grass, but not so soon.

The economic case was always about lost opportunity, not total collapse (assuming there wasn't the insane no deal exit coopster wanted).

Pross

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

So if I'm reading that correctly we previously had 11% of all our trade through 100% of those EU agreements and we have therefore lost 25% of them along with, potentially, the 50% or so of our overall trade that was with the EU. 🤔

We haven't finished yet - and not bad going considering we've only been 'out' for 3 days

What makes you think we will stop trading with the EU if we don't get a trade deal with them? We export more to the US than any other country and have no trade deal with them - yet.

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

Most of them were done in the 3.5 years before we were 'out' though. Of course we'll continue to trade with the EU, all I'm saying is that the report you linked to is showing that of the previous agreements covering 60% of our trade we currently only have about 8% covered and while I accept that the EU wouldn't start official discussions until we left we've had years to secure replacement deals with the others so I'm not seeing it as a success that we've managed to get 75% of them agreed.

tailwindhome

Stevo_666 said:

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

It never was necessary

ballysmate

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

It never was necessary

52% agree with Stevo.

tailwindhome

ballysmate said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

It never was necessary

52% agree with Stevo.

Still not necessary

ballysmate

tailwindhome said:

ballysmate said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

It never was necessary

52% agree with Stevo.

Still not necessary

In your minority opinion

Unless of course you mean that the EU could have abandoned its goal of economic and political union. Bit I'm guessing somehow you don't mean that.

tailwindhome

ballysmate said:

tailwindhome said:

ballysmate said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

It never was necessary

52% agree with Stevo.

Still not necessary

In your minority opinion

Unless of course you mean that the EU could have abandoned its goal of economic and political union. Bit I'm guessing somehow you don't mean that.

I mean its not necessary

ballysmate

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

So if I'm reading that correctly we previously had 11% of all our trade through 100% of those EU agreements and we have therefore lost 25% of them along with, potentially, the 50% or so of our overall trade that was with the EU. 🤔

We haven't finished yet - and not bad going considering we've only been 'out' for 3 days

What makes you think we will stop trading with the EU if we don't get a trade deal with them? We export more to the US than any other country and have no trade deal with them - yet.

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

So you keep saying, despite plenty of evidence that the causes were far more varied.

surrey_commuter

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

ballysmate

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

rjsterry

ballysmate said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

It never was necessary

52% agree with Stevo.

No, the majority of Leave voters claimed that their primary reason for so doing was a concern about immigration from EU countries. Awkward, I appreciate but that's what they said when asked. In one poll 49% of Leavers stated that "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK" was their primary motivation. So at best 49% of 52% agreed with Stevo.

Of course in more recent polls, Remain has a small lead over Leave, so some people have changed their minds.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

No, I think it's fair criticism of both campaigns. One is still ongoing.

rick_chasey

ballysmate said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

I think you believe in the wisdom of crowds too much.

How long is the emperor's nose?

rjsterry

ballysmate said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

Certainly agree on that. It was a mistake to focus solely on economic arguments, which cut no ice with Leave-leaning voters. Although oddly enough that was the most popular reason for voting Remain, so it worked for some people. After the vote the Remain campaign just disintegrated into internal squabbling.

rolf_f

Stevo_666 said:

rolf_f said:

Stevo_666 said:

Or maybe that after all the whingeing and apocalyptic predictions, most of us probably won't notice anything meterially different in our daily lives?

What, you mean all those headlines about how those European regulations (that no Brexiter has ever been able to give a single example of) were ruining our lives weren't true?
And that taking back control won't make any difference at all?
Apart from obviously that we'll be happy to blame ourselves for any shitness in our lives because we'll have taken back control so no-one else at all to blame.

I mean I don't think it will be as bad for us as many have said it will be. Its a wider issue than just laws and regs.

BTW I posted my issues with EU regs a few pages upthread, probably while you were in exile. I'll see if I can find it. On the other hand, why do you think it s a good thing to give away control?

Miss even a day and you lose the thread!

I don't think we have ever given up control in a meaningful sense. All "control" is is rules and we need those. Getting rid of the EU just changes who make some of those rules but EU are far better at making up rules that benefit us than short term Governments (whether left or right wing) so I'd say that we are actually giving up control by leaving the EU.

And I do agree - most people won't be that aware of the difference (the changes will be incremental - a gradual deterioration that people don't notice on a day to day basis but which are still very much there). That's the problem with the EU - the benefits are also just there in the background but the lack of profile doesn't mean they aren't there. The sad thing is that barely anyone has the slightest legitimate personal reason to hate the EU whilst many have benefitted enormously.

Longshot

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

Similarly, the same attitude was what helped us repel those dastardly foreigners in the 1940s against poor odds.

You don't give up your cause just because you're not winning.

kingstongraham

I have incontrovertible proof that we did not give up control over the destiny of our country.

bompington

ballysmate said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

Ironically if the EU had kept to being a trading bloc rather than the 'ever closer integration', none of this would be necessary.

It never was necessary

52% agree with Stevo.

Given that Stevo claims to have voted Remain, that would indeed be consistent with pretty much all opinion polls taken before, during and ever since the referendum.

The 52% of the turnout who voted to leave in one advisory referendum didn't agree on very much at all: managing to make "leave" mean whatever you wanted it to was just part of the genius of the Leave campaign.
Managing to establish the lie that this was The Will Of The People was another impressive feat.

surrey_commuter

ballysmate said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

but were not guilty of repeating something like a mantra. If anything they should have found a three word mantra and endlessly repeated it

Take Back Control
Get Brexit Done

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

but were not guilty of repeating something like a mantra. If anything they should have found a three word mantra and endlessly repeated it

Take Back Control
Get Brexit Done

Hang on. I can't stand the ends Cummings wishes to achieve, nor a lot of his means, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a three word slogan for a ref/election campaign that cuts through like nothing else.

If you can do it they are the single most powerful thing you can do in a campaign.

It's just really good electioneering. It's really disappointing it was done on the side I fundamentally disagree with, but I'm not gonna have people slate it because they don't agree with it or they think it's nonsense.

Take back control and get brexit done, alongside Yes we can, should be held up to any budding electioneer for the next 30 years as an example of how to do it well.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

but were not guilty of repeating something like a mantra. If anything they should have found a three word mantra and endlessly repeated it

Take Back Control
Get Brexit Done

Hang on. I can't stand the ends Cummings wishes to achieve, nor a lot of his means, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a three word slogan for a ref/election campaign that cuts through like nothing else.

If you can do it they are the single most powerful thing you can do in a campaign.

It's just really good electioneering. It's really disappointing it was done on the side I fundamentally disagree with, but I'm not gonna have people slate it because they don't agree with it or they think it's nonsense.

Take back control and get brexit done, alongside Yes we can, should be held up to any budding electioneer for the next 30 years as an example of how to do it well.

MAGA wasn't bad either. It got Trump elected.

Longshot

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

but were not guilty of repeating something like a mantra. If anything they should have found a three word mantra and endlessly repeated it

Take Back Control
Get Brexit Done

Hang on. I can't stand the ends Cummings wishes to achieve, nor a lot of his means, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a three word slogan for a ref/election campaign that cuts through like nothing else.

The absolute genius of GBD was that it even resonated with fence sitters and probably marginal Remainers. Most people were sick to the back teeth with it and just wanted the whole issue to go away (in perceptual terms).

kingstongraham

What should that have been? Has to be positive, and about Britain being a leading force in Europe rather than the EU being some inanimate force that happens to Britain.

A strong Britain in a strong Europe?

rick_chasey

Meh, I dunno about that.

I saw a facebook conversation during the election from someone I went to school with. She runs a hairdresser. She made it quite clear she has no interest in politics but she wanted to end child poverty but also wanted brexit out of the way (so they could focus on child poverty) and was asking for advice on who to vote for.

I don't know her but she had around 150 comments on it. I recon a third were iterations of "get brexit done" or "tories will get brexit done".

The others were long meandering arguments which were TL;DR.

I don't think resonation is as important as how easy is it to repeat in an argument.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

surrey_commuter said:

ballysmate said:

Repeating something like a mantra and refusing to face the reality has been the downfall of the Remain side since the vote.

I think you have that the wrong way round

Not talking about whether or not you, I, Stevo, Rick, Rjs, Coopster or anyone else on here thought it would be beneficial.
I am talking about the politics and nationwide feeling post referendum. The Remain side badly misjudged that and refused to accept the reality of the situation.

but were not guilty of repeating something like a mantra. If anything they should have found a three word mantra and endlessly repeated it

Take Back Control
Get Brexit Done

Hang on. I can't stand the ends Cummings wishes to achieve, nor a lot of his means, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a three word slogan for a ref/election campaign that cuts through like nothing else.

If you can do it they are the single most powerful thing you can do in a campaign.

It's just really good electioneering. It's really disappointing it was done on the side I fundamentally disagree with, but I'm not gonna have people slate it because they don't agree with it or they think it's nonsense.

Take back control and get brexit done, alongside Yes we can, should be held up to any budding electioneer for the next 30 years as an example of how to do it well.

read what I wrote - you are agreeing with me whilst arguing with me

rick_chasey

I guess it was the way this was phrased that made me think you were against it.

but were not guilty of repeating something like a mantra