BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Rick Chasey wrote:I mean, FWIW, Thornberry has apologised for the Lib Dem - Taliban comparison - without it seems, anyone calling for her to do so.
She probably regretted it, the moment Farron replied.0 -
I do think the unshaking faith that the UK won't disappear down the extremist rabbit hole is misplaced.
I get that those who read history are doomed to think it is repeating, but I do see some ugly parallels.
There's plainly some indefensible behaviour going on and people who really ought to be above it are defending it. Blaming it on people with different political persuasions only adds to the problem.
Bally - I think this idea that MPs want extensions forever is basically tinfoil chat.
They want a soft Brexit - like one that was campaigned on. Have said it a million times, you'd get a deal if you stayed in the CU and the SM - but Brexit isn't about that anymore. it's a full blown culture war and people who keep clinging to the idea that solving Brexit will end it are missing the point; Brexit, for a whole chunk of voters, wasn't ever about the EU.
All the analysis in the aftermath of the vote pointed to the same. Look back on this very thread. It was about all the things that line up in the culture wars; anti-establishment, anti "metropolitan elite" (which lumps most MPs together), anti-immigrant, and sticking it to the PC brigade who the EU implicitly backs. BoJo is going to campaign on the same topics with Brexit as the vehicle to do so.
That is why the geni is out of the bottle. It's a full blown culture war, and Brexit is the proxy, for now.0 -
I mean, let's, for a moment, spell out what BoJo said re Jo Cox.
let's honour the MP who was killed by a Nazi for opposing Brexit by doing what the Nazi wanted (Brexit).0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:Ballysmate wrote:PBlakeney wrote:
Wasn't it raised by Joanna Cherry, MP?Ballysmate wrote:PBlakeney wrote:
I thought one of the main pluses of Brexit was to bring back power to parliament?Coopster the 1st wrote:Congrats remoaners! Today was worth getting Parliament back. What a waste of time and all this just reinforces the Leave vote come the election.
I also enjoyed seeing Bercow looking really uncomfortable in the chair as this is the parliament he has created and presided over. He has lost control and authority. It was delicious to see the Tories serve their revenge on him, and I sure they will continue to do so. They humiliated him beautifully.
I know, waste of typing time. I know...
As I posted earlier, it is a shame that Parliament didn't exercise that power to hold the executive to account. They have had the power for centuries but on this occasion chose to sit on their hands and left it to a private citizen to mount a challenge in the courts.
No-one in the Commons has covered themselves in glory.
Quite right though. No one is coming out of this looking good.
True, she is a MP but she chose to exercise the same right as Gina Miller, a private citizen, albeit in a Scottish court. She chose not to exercise any powers/privileges of her office of MP.
Checks and balances built into a constitution are useless if members refuse to exercise them.
Bit difficult to exercise your powers as an MP if parliament is shut down.
If you mean a no confidence vote, you know that this would take time, plus parliament then shuts down for any election. Given the point of prorogation was to help run the clock down, that wasn't a great option.
Notice of proroguing Parliament dated 28 August to take effect 9 September.
EU had stated that en extension would be granted in order to hold elections had it not?0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Notice of proroguing Parliament dated 28 August to take effect 9 September.
EU had stated that en extension would be granted in order to hold elections had it not?
So you believe them when they say that, but not when they say they don't want Brexit to go on forever?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I do think the unshaking faith that the UK won't disappear down the extremist rabbit hole is misplaced.
Bally - I think this idea that MPs want extensions forever is basically tinfoil chat.
/quote]
You reckon?
The one party who is committed to Remain and has publicly stated such are the Libdems. They seem content to keep kicking the can down the road.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Notice of proroguing Parliament dated 28 August to take effect 9 September.
EU had stated that en extension would be granted in order to hold elections had it not?
So you believe them when they say that, but not when they say they don't want Brexit to go on forever?
I don't recall saying that I didn't believe the EU saying they don't want Brexit to go on forever. :?0 -
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And there are only 20 out of 650; elected on that position. There are more Conservative MPs who have rebelled against their own leader's attempts to get a deal agreed than there are LD MPs and 8 are now in Cabinet. If they were so worried about getting it done why didn't they vote for the WA when they had the chance.Ballysmate wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I do think the unshaking faith that the UK won't disappear down the extremist rabbit hole is misplaced.
Bally - I think this idea that MPs want extensions forever is basically tinfoil chat.
You reckon?
The one party who is committed to Remain and has publicly stated such are the Libdems. They seem content to keep kicking the can down the road.
It's not about Leaving with or without a deal any more; it's just a means to get people to vote for him. He'd promise the moon on a stick to every family if he thought that would keep him in no.10.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Ballysmate wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Ballysmate wrote:PBlakeney wrote:
Wasn't it raised by Joanna Cherry, MP?Ballysmate wrote:PBlakeney wrote:
I thought one of the main pluses of Brexit was to bring back power to parliament?Coopster the 1st wrote:Congrats remoaners! Today was worth getting Parliament back. What a waste of time and all this just reinforces the Leave vote come the election.
I also enjoyed seeing Bercow looking really uncomfortable in the chair as this is the parliament he has created and presided over. He has lost control and authority. It was delicious to see the Tories serve their revenge on him, and I sure they will continue to do so. They humiliated him beautifully.
I know, waste of typing time. I know...
As I posted earlier, it is a shame that Parliament didn't exercise that power to hold the executive to account. They have had the power for centuries but on this occasion chose to sit on their hands and left it to a private citizen to mount a challenge in the courts.
No-one in the Commons has covered themselves in glory.
Quite right though. No one is coming out of this looking good.
True, she is a MP but she chose to exercise the same right as Gina Miller, a private citizen, albeit in a Scottish court. She chose not to exercise any powers/privileges of her office of MP.
Checks and balances built into a constitution are useless if members refuse to exercise them.
Bit difficult to exercise your powers as an MP if parliament is shut down.
If you mean a no confidence vote, you know that this would take time, plus parliament then shuts down for any election. Given the point of prorogation was to help run the clock down, that wasn't a great option.
Notice of proroguing Parliament dated 28 August to take effect 9 September.
EU had stated that en extension would be granted in order to hold elections had it not?
And Johnson has said that there are no circumstances in which he will ask for an extension.
I think you're more trusting than the facts warrant.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I do think the unshaking faith that the UK won't disappear down the extremist rabbit hole is misplaced.
I get that those who read history are doomed to think it is repeating, but I do see some ugly parallels.
There's plainly some indefensible behaviour going on and people who really ought to be above it are defending it. Blaming it on people with different political persuasions only adds to the problem.
Bally - I think this idea that MPs want extensions forever is basically tinfoil chat.
They want a soft Brexit - like one that was campaigned on. Have said it a million times, you'd get a deal if you stayed in the CU and the SM - but Brexit isn't about that anymore. it's a full blown culture war and people who keep clinging to the idea that solving Brexit will end it are missing the point; Brexit, for a whole chunk of voters, wasn't ever about the EU.
All the analysis in the aftermath of the vote pointed to the same. Look back on this very thread. It was about all the things that line up in the culture wars; anti-establishment, anti "metropolitan elite" (which lumps most MPs together), anti-immigrant, and sticking it to the PC brigade who the EU implicitly backs. BoJo is going to campaign on the same topics with Brexit as the vehicle to do so.
That is why the geni is out of the bottle. It's a full blown culture war, and Brexit is the proxy, for now.
I'm glad you are it this way because this is what is happening.
This is also why I keep arguing with the party that the stop Brexit policy is a big mistake. It may get some votes but it solves nothing. It is a shame liberalism has become defined by eu membership when it has nothing to do with it.
If mps want a soft brexit the there is WA vote for it and then use the transition period so something like customs union and eea membership. Sadly there is so much anger now no deal is looking likely as compromise is difficult.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Could it not be the case that the vote for A50 was responded to in good faith - ie that the government would knuckle down to it and get a "good deal" whatever that may be. Over time, it's become apparent that there are some significant sticking points and MPs have changed their minds that A50 was a good idea because basically, there is no "good deal" to be had.
Not wanting the poisoned chalice may not be a good way for MPs to be - but what other option do they have LDs don't have anywhere near enough MPs - and have been burnt with coalition with the Tories before - so they'll be reluctant to join forces with others to try and form a government anyway. Labour can't decide if they want Brexit or not - anyway they don't want the sort of Brexit that's been negotiated - and nobody will help them get into government even if they did.
I can see why they didn't do the VONC or GE vote before the proroguing - because it would just run the clock down even further. JC has said - give a fixed date for GE (and an extension) and we'll vote for it.... what he's not prepared to do is say to the Tories - yes, go ahead, organise the next biggest event in UK recent history, but do it when you want ... giving them cart blanch to time it so we "crash out" on the 31st Oct come what may - and the inevitable tory claim "We delivered Brexit as promised" ...
The only way you'd get me to be PM now (not that I'd want to be ever anyway) would be on the basis that this is all a crock of shit, we can't decide anything on here - so time to re-question the electorate.
Then, assuming it's still "Brexit please" (pref with a 2/3rds majority rather than a 50/50 split), form a cross party team to sort out the mess and get it through.
It sounds simple and it wouldn't be ... but that's the way I'd go ...0 -
Also the eu said it will grant an extension to hold elections not on the promise of we will hold them after we get an extension.
My argument is given the Ben burt bill is pretty watertight and a court order can force the pm or an official to sign the extension letter it matter little of an election is called before the 31st. The current parliament needs the rest of an election. That may not ease the paralysis but MPs cannot keep hurling insults at each in parliament. Parliament does not function in that atmosphere. If after a vote for a election boris changes the date of the election it matter little. If the extension letter is sent as the law requires we remain. If bojo refuse a court will force the issue and we remain. All the opposition fears that there is some ace up bojo sleaves give him to much credit. By no voting for an election the opposition are playing into the tories hands. An election now cant be held till November anyway.
I wont be voting lib dem or for any opposition party now as they have proved themselves to he paralysed by fear. That shows they cannot think things through and see brexit as the be all and end all which it isn't. The real fight as Rick chasey pointed out is how we govern ourselves.
How the hello do we as a nation calm things down.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
I'm going to admit to being a bit confused about one thing in particular.
If we get a deal in time for the 31st October, that tides us over until 31st December 2020 with similar access and regulations to what we have now. If we then can't agree an ongoing trade deal to continue after 1st Jan 2021, do we just leave to no deal then? I can't see why things are going to be massively different in one year.0 -
Corbyn wants to leave but doesn't want to be at the helm when we do, that's his problem.0
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thecycleclinic wrote:How the hello do we as a nation calm things down.
I'm more concerned about this question than the Brexit outcome.
The divisions created and exacerbated by the Brexit issue are raw wounds and they aren't going to heal anytime soon no matter what the outcome is. A very large chunk of the population is going to be very, very upset by the result.
Hopefully, one of the outcomes of the mess is that current choice of political parties changes. This left/right/other concept is thoroughly outdated and has been shown up as such by Brexit. It's as if if we have a 2D party system in a 3D world.
From my perspective, the whole system needs a shake up. Perhaps we should have MPs chosen by a method similar to a jury system and do away with career politicians once and for all
You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:I'm going to admit to being a bit confused about one thing in particular.
If we get a deal in time for the 31st October, that tides us over until 31st December 2020 with similar access and regulations to what we have now. If we then can't agree an ongoing trade deal to continue after 1st Jan 2021, do we just leave to no deal then? I can't see why things are going to be massively different in one year.
Under May's deal there was a provision to extend the transition period (in exchange for money). Failing that it was the backstop.
If the backstop is removed, then presumably there would still be the extension provision, but yes that would look a lot like the current discussions.
The phasing of negotiations doesn't work that well. Agreeing how to agree is always much harder than just agreeing0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:I'm going to admit to being a bit confused about one thing in particular.
If we get a deal in time for the 31st October, that tides us over until 31st December 2020 with similar access and regulations to what we have now. If we then can't agree an ongoing trade deal to continue after 1st Jan 2021, do we just leave to no deal then? I can't see why things are going to be massively different in one year.
As I understand it under A50 we have certain rights regarding our exit. The WA deals with extricating ourselves from all the EU bodies and treaties. Currently the WA contains a transition period to cover the trade side of things. If no trade deal is done then the WA still stands as it does not cover trade.0 -
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Shirley Basso wrote:Corbyn wants to leave but doesn't want to be at the helm when we do, that's his problem.
Corbyn's desire to leave the EU is a square I just can't circle. The EU, a pseudo Duma in Brussels that is run by unelected bureaucrats who are totally unaccountable and think they know what's best for the proletariat. What's not to like for Corbyn?Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
Mr Goo wrote:Shirley Basso wrote:Corbyn wants to leave but doesn't want to be at the helm when we do, that's his problem.
Corbyn's desire to leave the EU is a square I just can't circle. The EU, a pseudo Duma in Brussels that is run by unelected bureaucrats who are totally unaccountable and think they know what's best for the proletariat. What's not to like for Corbyn?
This is what the hard left thinks:
"The European Union is a capitalist club that makes it easy for multi-national companies to exploit workers throughout its member states"
"Socialism can never be delivered while we remain in the EU's capitalist club."
"The European Union is a capitalist club, formed by capitalism for capitalism."
It's all formed in the 70s, when it was a trade organisation, and unsurprisingly, Corbyn hasn't moved on as the EU has changed.0 -
rjsterry wrote:He'd promise the moon on a stick to every family if he thought that would keep him in no.10.
Given that he's now been found in a court of law to have lied to the Queen, surely nobody on earth with more than two brain cells to rub together would believe a single word he says now.thecycleclinic wrote:If mps want a soft brexit the there is WA vote for it and then use the transition period so something like customs union and eea membership. Sadly there is so much anger now no deal is looking likely as compromise is difficult.
The only person who thinks the WA/May deal is a soft Brexit is Coopster the Idiot. It's only a soft Brexit in comparison to no deal. If the WA were a soft Brexit then there would be no difficulty implementing it as the Backstop would not be needed (I think!).Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I mean, let's, for a moment, spell out what BoJo said re Jo Cox.
let's honour the MP who was killed by a Nazi for opposing Brexit by doing what the Nazi wanted (Brexit).
Her husband on twitter.
Brendan Cox
Verified account @MrBrendanCox
13h13 hours ago
Feel a bit sick at Jo’s name being used in this way. The best way to honour Jo is for all of us (no matter our views) to stand up for what we believe in, passionately and with determination. But never to demonise the other side and always hold onto what we have in common.
Just to reiterate this is about the role we all play. Just as ‘surrender’ & ‘betrayal’ is inflammatory language, so is ‘coup’ and ‘fascist’. Let’s all play our part in dialing it down.0 -
Rolf F wrote:surely nobody on earth with more than two brain cells to rub together would believe a single word he says now.
But the court was biased and the decision was wrong. Therefore, by extension, he didn't lie to anyone and was on holiday when it didn't happen.You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.0 -
At the next general election assuming it happened tomorrow we would have the following choices ignoring all other factors than Brexit.
Tories = No deal with lets sort out the situation afterwards.
Labour = Broker a deal whilst telling the other party that you intend to put the deal to the people so if they want us to remain they had better make it a bad deal. SM and CU access presuming no future say on regulations, no ability to sign trade deals outside the EU and freedom of movement continuing.
SNP/LD & Greens = Remain with A50 cancelled.
I can see how the bottom group get some additional votes. The middle group appear unhinged and it is a big risk voting for them as lets face it when they get their rubbish deal the UK public might stick two fingers up and vote for it for a laugh. I actually think the Tories are onto a winner as crazy as that sounds. It is going to be really hard to sell Labours position to the remainers because it is risky and to the brexiteers as they get all of the downsides and non of the upsides of leaving.0 -
IIRC - the "Trust" in May was there - there was no laws passed to pressurize the PM to do anything - not until the last minute - basically, she wasn't pulling any tricks. BJ has shown that his Premiership is going to be full of tricks in order to fulfill what he promised to get into the premiership.Rolf F wrote:Given that he's now been found in a court of law to have lied to the Queen, surely nobody on earth with more than two brain cells to rub together would believe a single word he says now.
I suspect, if May was still in charge, they'd give her the GE ...0 -
Slowbike wrote:
IIRC - the "Trust" in May was there - there was no laws passed to pressurize the PM to do anything - not until the last minute - basically, she wasn't pulling any tricks. BJ has shown that his Premiership is going to be full of tricks in order to fulfill what he promised to get into the premiership.Rolf F wrote:Given that he's now been found in a court of law to have lied to the Queen, surely nobody on earth with more than two brain cells to rub together would believe a single word he says now.
I suspect, if May was still in charge, they'd give her the GE ...
Indeed - and by definition why it is entirely correct for Labour to let him stew. Besides, as we know from both Donald Johnson and Boris Trump, you need a hell of a lot of mud now to stick to crooks before people actually realise what it is that they are supporting.john80 wrote:At the next general election assuming it happened tomorrow we would have the following choices ignoring all other factors than Brexit.
Tories = No deal with lets sort out the situation afterwards.
Labour = Broker a deal whilst telling the other party that you intend to put the deal to the people so if they want us to remain they had better make it a bad deal. SM and CU access presuming no future say on regulations, no ability to sign trade deals outside the EU and freedom of movement continuing.
SNP/LD & Greens = Remain with A50 cancelled.
I can see how the bottom group get some additional votes. The middle group appear unhinged and it is a big risk voting for them as lets face it when they get their rubbish deal the UK public might stick two fingers up and vote for it for a laugh. I actually think the Tories are onto a winner as crazy as that sounds. It is going to be really hard to sell Labours position to the remainers because it is risky and to the brexiteers as they get all of the downsides and non of the upsides of leaving.
Yes - basically nobody will shift so we'll have a general election and there will be no overall majority. But we may end up with a PM who would become only the 2nd or 3rd worst in British history which would be a small step forward. This isn't likely to end any time soon......Faster than a tent.......0 -
john80 wrote:At the next general election assuming it happened tomorrow we would have the following choices ignoring all other factors than Brexit.
Tories = No deal with lets sort out the situation afterwards.
Labour = Broker a deal whilst telling the other party that you intend to put the deal to the people so if they want us to remain they had better make it a bad deal. SM and CU access presuming no future say on regulations, no ability to sign trade deals outside the EU and freedom of movement continuing.
SNP/LD & Greens = Remain with A50 cancelled.
I can see how the bottom group get some additional votes. The middle group appear unhinged and it is a big risk voting for them as lets face it when they get their rubbish deal the UK public might stick two fingers up and vote for it for a laugh. I actually think the Tories are onto a winner as crazy as that sounds. It is going to be really hard to sell Labours position to the remainers because it is risky and to the brexiteers as they get all of the downsides and non of the upsides of leaving.
As it stands right now, I would agree in that there is only a cat in hell's chance that the Tories don't win a GE.You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.0 -
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Terrifying, isn't it.0
