BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

rick_chasey

TailWindHome wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So the evil genius theory is that all this upset about “surrender bill” chat is in fact helping the Tories in that it actually cuts through and is memorable, so the more people say it, the more that’s what it becomes.

So Tories see labour attempts to tone down the language as an attempt to remove an electorally valuable term; hence not backing down.

I think it's simpler than that.

Every time Labour repeat it to condemn it they amplify it.

To put rather crudely, if it’s appearing in death threats it’s probably cutting through the noise.

surrey_commuter

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So jess philips, who was making the point around the divisiveness of BoJo's efforts has just had someone arrested trying to get into her constituency office, apparently shouting that she was a 'fascist'.

Culture wars innit.

I wonder if claiming to support brexit whilst working ronprevent it every day for the last three years falls under low level facism. Coincidently a lot of labours economy plans could also be described as facism. It all low level but state control of industries and forcing asset strippong of private schools are just some examples.

I am pretty sure Mark Francois died on a D-Day beach fighting fascism. He may have changed his views but it seems a bit harsh to call him a facist for voting against the WA.

rick_chasey

Cummings making out it’s going better than expected.

Presumably he means electorally.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cummings making out it’s going better than expected.

Presumably he means electorally.

A bit f***ing rich to blame the death threats on MPs not voting for a deal when half the cabinet did just that and Johnson himself has yet to produce anything to vote on.

cycleclinic

bompington wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

That's the thing that will end this, mass party membership. You know a few million per party. The e tremes then get drowned out. Right now the remainia ultras rule the Lib dems, the lefty zealots rule labour and nodeal fanatics rule the tories and Brexit party.

Two things to this:
- calling anyone who is in favour of a position that has been the status quo accepted by the vast majority of the country for most of the last 45 years a "remainia ultra" is a bit Farage, isn't it?
- mass party membership drowning out the extremes? That certainly worked well for Labour

Labour only has 430000 members. The tories once had 3.million. people used to join parties as a social thing not just poltical. People met there partners through parties. So yes mass party membership does help keep the extremes from dominating. Labour is not a mass movement party. If they draw in the voters and a well as the die hard supporters then you might find there position being less left wing than it is.

The lib dems position has become extreme because it's the exact opposite if the Brexit party position. The middle position has moved. That's what many on the remain side struggle with. The middle position is not popular either. No brexit outcome is popular and that's the problem. Remember standing order 24 has been used to take control of the order paper. That's an extreme move. The motive maybe sound but the action is no less extreme.

Does anyone remember why we are doing this. Culture wars never end well.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cummings making out it’s going better than expected.

Presumably he means electorally.

A bit f***ing rich to blame the death threats on MPs not voting for a deal when half the cabinet did just that and Johnson himself has yet to produce anything to vote on.

He’s a c*nt but I’ve priced that in now.

cycleclinic

bompington wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

That's the thing that will end this, mass party membership. You know a few million per party. The e tremes then get drowned out. Right now the remainia ultras rule the Lib dems, the lefty zealots rule labour and nodeal fanatics rule the tories and Brexit party.

Two things to this:
- calling anyone who is in favour of a position that has been the status quo accepted by the vast majority of the country for most of the last 45 years a "remainia ultra" is a bit Farage, isn't it?
- mass party membership drowning out the extremes? That certainly worked well for Labour

Labour only has 430000 members. The tories once had 3.million. people used to join parties as a social thing not just poltical. People met there partners through parties. So yes mass party membership does help keep the extremes from dominating. Labour is not a mass movement party. If they draw in the voters and a well as the die hard supporters then you might find there position being less left wing than it is.

The lib dems position has become extreme because it's the exact opposite if the Brexit party position. The middle position has moved. That's what many on the remain side struggle with. The middle position is not popular either. No brexit outcome is popular and that's the problem. Remember standing order 24 has been used to take control of the order paper. That's an extreme move. The motive maybe sound but the action is no less extreme.

Does anyone remember why we are doing this. Culture wars never end well.

darkhairedlord

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cummings making out it’s going better than expected.

Presumably he means electorally.

A bit f***ing rich to blame the death threats on MPs not voting for a deal when half the cabinet did just that and Johnson himself has yet to produce anything to vote on.

I don't often use this but...
THIS x infinity.

briantrumpet

bompington wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

That's the thing that will end this, mass party membership. You know a few million per party. The e tremes then get drowned out. Right now the remainia ultras rule the Lib dems, the lefty zealots rule labour and nodeal fanatics rule the tories and Brexit party.

Two things to this:
- calling anyone who is in favour of a position that has been the status quo accepted by the vast majority of the country for most of the last 45 years a "remainia ultra" is a bit Farage, isn't it?
- mass party membership drowning out the extremes? That certainly worked well for Labour

Remain used to be the middle ground... well, it still is really, if you get past the noise: both the extreme left & right want to leave. It's a genius bit of shifting of perspective to rebrand the boring, imperfect status quo as an extreme thing to want to preserve.

john80

Rick Chasey wrote:

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So jess philips, who was making the point around the divisiveness of BoJo's efforts has just had someone arrested trying to get into her constituency office, apparently shouting that she was a 'fascist'.

Culture wars innit.

I wonder if claiming to support brexit whilst working ronprevent it every day for the last three years falls under low level facism. Coincidently a lot of labours economy plans could also be described as facism. It all low level but state control of industries and forcing asset strippong of private schools are just some examples.

You siding with the guy who was arrested?

This is a bit like when you blamed women for getting raped isn’t it?

He was banging on a window shouting facist which is likely to be a breach of the peace at best. The remainers have spent 3 years firing insults at tory leaders without a care in the world. I am not such a wall flower to get enraged when the shoe is on the other foot.

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

So the evil genius theory is that all this upset about “surrender bill” chat is in fact helping the Tories in that it actually cuts through and is memorable, so the more people say it, the more that’s what it becomes.

So Tories see labour attempts to tone down the language as an attempt to remove an electorally valuable term; hence not backing down.

Well I can guarantee one member of this forum will be using it in their next post. He buys into all the rhetoric.

rick_chasey

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So jess philips, who was making the point around the divisiveness of BoJo's efforts has just had someone arrested trying to get into her constituency office, apparently shouting that she was a 'fascist'.

Culture wars innit.

I wonder if claiming to support brexit whilst working ronprevent it every day for the last three years falls under low level facism. Coincidently a lot of labours economy plans could also be described as facism. It all low level but state control of industries and forcing asset strippong of private schools are just some examples.

You siding with the guy who was arrested?

This is a bit like when you blamed women for getting raped isn’t it?

He was banging on a window shouting facist which is likely to be a breach of the peace at best. The remainers have spent 3 years firing insults at tory leaders without a care in the world. I am not such a wall flower to get enraged when the shoe is on the other foot.

That’s it mate get stuck into the culture war.

Enemies all had it coming, didn’t they?

Wouldn’t hurt to look up what fascism means because you plainly don’t know, but that’s just smug remainers thinking they’re better than you isn’t it?

shirley_basso

Not thinking, knowing. And clearly not just remainers.

briantrumpet

John Major voicing his worries tonight:

My fear is that the government will seek to bypass statute law, by passing an order of council to suspend the [Benn] Act until after 31 October. It is important to note that an order of council can be passed by privy councillors – that is government ministers – without involving HM the Queen. I should warn the prime minister that – if this route is taken – it will be in flagrant defiance of parliament and utterly disrespectful to the supreme court. It would be a piece of political chicanery that no one should ever forgive or forget.

I've no idea if Parliament would be able to find any mechanism to prevent or reverse that, but I imagine it would provoke a constitutional crisis the likes of which none of us has ever seen: a minority government using an arcane mechanism to bypass parliament, to change the status of the nation.

john80

He was banging on a window shouting facist which is likely to be a breach of the peace at best. The remainers have spent 3 years firing insults at tory leaders without a care in the world. I am not such a wall flower to get enraged when the shoe is on the other foot.[/quote]

That’s it mate get stuck into the culture war.

Enemies all had it coming, didn’t they?

Wouldn’t hurt to look up what fascism means because you plainly don’t know, but that’s just smug remainers thinking they’re better than you isn’t it?[/quote]

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Posted up for you so you can maybe realise that the left can also do facism. I know you are having a tough time with this.

Your attempt to relate remain/brexit voters to american culture wars of the 1920s is rather amusing though. Hard to know who the conservative/traditionalist are versus the liberal/progressives in this rather tenuous link.

darkhairedlord

briantrumpet wrote:

John Major voicing his worries tonight:

My fear is that the government will seek to bypass statute law, by passing an order of council to suspend the [Benn] Act until after 31 October. It is important to note that an order of council can be passed by privy councillors – that is government ministers – without involving HM the Queen. I should warn the prime minister that – if this route is taken – it will be in flagrant defiance of parliament and utterly disrespectful to the supreme court. It would be a piece of political chicanery that no one should ever forgive or forget.

I've no idea if Parliament would be able to find any mechanism to prevent or reverse that, but I imagine it would provoke a constitutional crisis the likes of which none of us has ever seen: a minority government using an arcane mechanism to bypass parliament, to change the status of the nation.

If that's what bj does I suppose there needs to be a vonc and temporary national gvmt to get it done. Perhaps a may-deal vs revoke referendum to close then ge.

john80

briantrumpet wrote:

John Major voicing his worries tonight:

My fear is that the government will seek to bypass statute law, by passing an order of council to suspend the [Benn] Act until after 31 October. It is important to note that an order of council can be passed by privy councillors – that is government ministers – without involving HM the Queen. I should warn the prime minister that – if this route is taken – it will be in flagrant defiance of parliament and utterly disrespectful to the supreme court. It would be a piece of political chicanery that no one should ever forgive or forget.

I've no idea if Parliament would be able to find any mechanism to prevent or reverse that, but I imagine it would provoke a constitutional crisis the likes of which none of us has ever seen: a minority government using an arcane mechanism to bypass parliament, to change the status of the nation.

The opposition could always consider agreeing to a general election.

rjsterry

john80 wrote:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Posted up for you so you can maybe realise that the left can also do fascism. I know you are having a tough time with this.

You seem to be having a tough time distinguishing right from left. Fascism is a far-right movement as your own quote states. We can argue about precisely how far to the left Corbyn sits but he's definitely not far right. He's also definitely not an ultranationalist. He's weak leader who tolerates antisemitism within his party and has many other flaws but he's not a fascist and neither is Jess Phillips.

By the way the arrested idiot had smashed a window and was trying to kick the door in - bit more than breach of the peace I would think.

pinno

'piece' ? Did he put the jam on before the butter? Tut tut.

Wouldn't it be ironic if BoJo the staunch brexiteer was responsible for remaining in the EU due to the collapse of... well, everything?
He's well and truly snookered at the moment.

cowsham

Pinno wrote:

'piece' ? Did he put the jam on before the butter? Tut tut.

Wouldn't it be ironic if BoJo the staunch brexiteer was responsible for remaining in the EU due to the collapse of... well, everything?
He's well and truly snookered at the moment.

Boris is a remainer

Jez mon

Cowsham wrote:

Pinno wrote:

'piece' ? Did he put the jam on before the butter? Tut tut.

Wouldn't it be ironic if BoJo the staunch brexiteer was responsible for remaining in the EU due to the collapse of... well, everything?
He's well and truly snookered at the moment.

Boris is a remainer

Nah he's an opportunist with a bit of a nasty streak.

rjsterry

Pinno wrote:

'piece' ? Did he put the jam on before the butter? Tut tut.

Wouldn't it be ironic if BoJo the staunch brexiteer was responsible for remaining in the EU due to the collapse of... well, everything?
He's well and truly snookered at the moment.

Oops. It had been a long day. Duly corrected.

rick_chasey

john80 wrote:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Posted up for you so you can maybe realise that the left can also do facism. I know you are having a tough time with this.

Your attempt to relate remain/brexit voters to american culture wars of the 1920s is rather amusing though. Hard to know who the conservative/traditionalist are versus the liberal/progressives in this rather tenuous link.

Oh mate. You know the left is the hand which makes an L with the thumb and index?

If helps if you read *all* of the words.

Pross

john80 wrote:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Posted up for you so you can maybe realise that the left can also do facism. I know you are having a tough time with this.

Your attempt to relate remain/brexit voters to american culture wars of the 1920s is rather amusing though. Hard to know who the conservative/traditionalist are versus the liberal/progressives in this rather tenuous link.

I can't believe you posted that to support your argument. Proper facepalm!

cycleclinic

PBlakeney wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Remember when that Luxembourg PM had the press conference without Boris and it was considered an outrageous way for a PM to behave.

It was a simpler time.

Remember when the referendum was to unite the tories?
It was a simpler time.
Remember when The Monster Raving Lunatic Party were considered to be acting outrageously?
It was a simpler time.

Because the government insisted they took some time off. Now that parliament is back they have a choice over a recess and its payback time for a unpopular pm amongst mps.

Boris is not trying to build a coalition in parliament (his job) he is instead trying to win over his base. His action play well with mostly Male working class leave voter but Male leave voter in general approved female leave voters are less likely to won over especially when he tells a woman she's talking humbug.

Hes done it to himself, just him (and dominic cummings), him and no one else..

darkhairedlord

Does anyone else see the parallels with '30s Germany. Inflammatory divisive rhetoric, shutting down debate, extending executive power. When is our kristalnacht, 31st October?

darkhairedlord

thecycleclinic wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Remember when that Luxembourg PM had the press conference without Boris and it was considered an outrageous way for a PM to behave.

It was a simpler time.

Remember when the referendum was to unite the tories?
It was a simpler time.
Remember when The Monster Raving Lunatic Party were considered to be acting outrageously?
It was a simpler time.

Because the government insisted they took some time off. Now that parliament is back they have a choice over a recess and its payback time for a unpopular pm amongst mps.

Boris is not trying to build a coalition in parliament (his job) he is instead trying to win over his base. His action play well with mostly Male working class leave voter but Male leave voter in general approved female leave voters are less likely to won over especially when he tells a woman she's talking humbug.

Hes done it to himself, just him (and dominic cummings), him and no one else..

And all the tory mps that got him on the members ballot. And continue to defend him. Monumental lack of judgement, the world and his dog knew he was unfit.

Ben6899

john80 wrote:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Posted up for you so you can maybe realise that the left can also do facism. I know you are having a tough time with this.

Bloody hell, John. You've just kicked yourself in the taint with that post.

Pross

There's no chance of the tone of debate improving whilst Cummings is there. He came across as a right arrogant **** in the run in with the Labour MP. The Labour MP didn't come out to well either with his (paraphrasing) 'it's Cummings, let's go and have a rant at him' but the smug response felt more like 1990s Liam Gallagher than the person advising our PM. If there's any way to Tory party can get rid of him they really ought to.

darkhairedlord

Pross wrote:

There's no chance of the tone of debate improving whilst Cummings is there. He came across as a right arrogant **** in the run in with the Labour MP. The Labour MP didn't come out to well either with his (paraphrasing) 'it's Cummings, let's go and have a rant at him' but the smug response felt more like 1990s Liam Gallagher than the person advising our PM. If there's any way to Tory party can get rid of him they really ought to.

Blame Cummings all you like, he's not the pm, he's not even an mp, they have all gone along with it.