BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

Wheelspinner

Ballysmate wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

What the holy fcuk did they expect?

That's easy. A general election, a referendum or revocation of A50 depending on the MP.

What if, following an election,as Rick says we get a similar make up in the Commons as now. What if another referendum produces the same/ closer or even 52/48 split the other way? Where do we go then?

In that case this thread will go another couple thousand pages.

rick_chasey

What is stopping MPs trying to come to a (realistic) proposal that *is* workable?

I mean, they literally have a list of all the options and how (un)popular they are. Start at the option which got the most votes and work down.

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

What the holy fcuk did they expect?

That's easy. A general election, a referendum or revocation of A50 depending on the MP.

What if, following an election,as Rick says we get a similar make up in the Commons as now. What if another referendum produces the same/ closer or even 52/48 split the other way? Where do we go then?

I think there those who would now vote for the WA on the 4th attempt. A result of how the questions are asked, maybe? Are you for/against proposal X? is quite different from Rank the following options in order of preference.

The latter also allows everyone to give honest answers without feeling trapped by their/their party's rhetoric. It's not inconsistent as, say a LibDem to indicate that while your first choice would be not to leave, you would still prefer leaving with a deal over leaving without one. Similarly, for all Farage's nationalist twaddle, I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

bompington

rjsterry wrote:

I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

I think you're very, very wrong there. Not leaving means they get to boost their Betraying The Will of the People story to the max, they'd love it - as opposed to any actual Brexit, which could only be a disappointment.

kingstongraham

bompington wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

I think you're very, very wrong there. Not leaving means they get to boost their Betraying The Will of the People story to the max, they'd love it - as opposed to any actual Brexit, which could only be a disappointment.

Doesn't matter to them, they'll spin anything as not really leaving.

coopster_the_1st

KingstonGraham wrote:

bompington wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

I think you're very, very wrong there. Not leaving means they get to boost their Betraying The Will of the People story to the max, they'd love it - as opposed to any actual Brexit, which could only be a disappointment.

Doesn't matter to them, they'll spin anything as not really leaving.

The WA was BRINO and the best choice for remoaners in opening up the option to re-joining, but they thought they thought they knew better than the electorate and thus are still trying for the undemocratic option. Hence we have TPB.

And I can confirm not leaving was the least worst option compared to the WA. Now remoaners are getting a taste of how democracy works and wetting themselves

I want TBP to go away but that will only happen if we leave on 31st Oct, with a deal or not and the deal must not be BRINO. Thankfully we now have a govt that now recongises this and is much more aligned to what the public wants.

kingstongraham

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

bompington wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

I think you're very, very wrong there. Not leaving means they get to boost their Betraying The Will of the People story to the max, they'd love it - as opposed to any actual Brexit, which could only be a disappointment.

Doesn't matter to them, they'll spin anything as not really leaving.

The WA was BRINO and the best choice for remoaners in opening up the option to re-joining, but they thought they thought they knew better than the electorate and thus are still trying for the undemocratic option. Hence we have TPB.

And I can confirm not leaving was the least worst option compared to the WA. Now remoaners are getting a taste of how democracy works and wetting themselves

I want TBP to go away but that will only happen if we leave on 31st Oct, with a deal or not and the deal must not be BRINO. Thankfully we now have a govt that now recongises this and is much more aligned to what the public wants.

You underestimate Farage. Even leaving without a deal will be a betrayal. Once we are out, negotiations will still need to happen to make a deal. That deal will not be good enough for Farage, because if it is, then he ceases to have any form of relevance.

The WA was not BRINO. It was the starting point of negotiations for a future relationship, and would only have lasted until the end of next year. ANY Brexit means negotiations continue.

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

What is stopping MPs trying to come to a (realistic) proposal that *is* workable?

No one can let go

rjsterry

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

bompington wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

I think you're very, very wrong there. Not leaving means they get to boost their Betraying The Will of the People story to the max, they'd love it - as opposed to any actual Brexit, which could only be a disappointment.

Doesn't matter to them, they'll spin anything as not really leaving.

The WA was BRINO and the best choice for remoaners in opening up the option to re-joining, but they thought they thought they knew better than the electorate and thus are still trying for the undemocratic option. Hence we have TPB.

And I can confirm not leaving was the least worst option compared to the WA. Now remoaners are getting a taste of how democracy works and wetting themselves

I want TBP to go away but that will only happen if we leave on 31st Oct, with a deal or not and the deal must not be BRINO. Thankfully we now have a govt that now recongises this and is much more aligned to what the public wants.

Like I said a few hundred pages back we are all going to be disappointed.

rjsterry

bompington wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

I think you're very, very wrong there. Not leaving means they get to boost their Betraying The Will of the People story to the max, they'd love it - as opposed to any actual Brexit, which could only be a disappointment.

That's just it. It's a story for motivating support. In any case, until they actually win a by-election they don't get a say.

sungod

Coopster the 1st wrote:

As you don't respect democracy or democratic outcomes, you no longer voting or leaving the country will only be an improvement for the UK as this country needs less whinging losers like you.

fact: over 40 million british citizens in this country did not vote leave

fact: the leave campaign lied, distorted, and broke election law

fact: zero voted for leave with no deal, because that was not the platform of the leave campaign

fact: only members of the tory party were allowed to choose johnson, he has no democratic mandate from the british people, he has no majority in parliament, which is supposed to be sovereign, but is instead ignored by a proven liar

brexiters still whine that it's everyone else that's to blame, even as they conspire to strip every citizen of their rights, trash the value of sterling, throw away the uk's influence, and pander to trump, a lying, self-confessed molester of young women, and apologist for far right extremists and racists, clearly a brexiter kind of guy, he's a whiner too

there's nothing democratic about the situation the country has been landed in by lying, whining brexiter traitors

sungod

Wheelspinner wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

What the holy fcuk did they expect?

That's easy. A general election, a referendum or revocation of A50 depending on the MP.

What if, following an election,as Rick says we get a similar make up in the Commons as now. What if another referendum produces the same/ closer or even 52/48 split the other way? Where do we go then?

In that case this thread will go another couple thousand pages.

i think it will go on until it consumes all available resources and the br grinds to a halt

shirley_basso

sungod wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

As you don't respect democracy or democratic outcomes, you no longer voting or leaving the country will only be an improvement for the UK as this country needs less whinging losers like you.

fact: over 40 million british citizens in this country did not vote leave

fact: the leave campaign lied, distorted, and broke election law

fact: zero voted for leave with no deal, because that was not the platform of the leave campaign

fact: only members of the tory party were allowed to choose johnson, he has no democratic mandate from the british people, he has no majority in parliament, which is supposed to be sovereign, but is instead ignored by a proven liar

brexiters still whine that it's everyone else that's to blame, even as they conspire to strip every citizen of their rights, trash the value of sterling, throw away the uk's influence, and pander to trump, a lying, self-confessed molester of young women, and apologist for far right extremists and racists, clearly a brexiter kind of guy, he's a whiner too

there's nothing democratic about the situation the country has been landed in by lying, whining brexiter traitors

On points 1) and 2)
1) If you didn't vote it doesn't count. The majority who voted, voted leave, and that's that, unfortunately. If I recall, the turnout was pretty high compared to General Elections. You can't make any assumptions about those who didn't turn up.
2) It wasn't a referendum according to election law, it was merely an opinion poll and therefore election rules don't apply. Cameron decided he wanted to act on it, he would have been better off falling on his sword and not enacting A50.
3) Agreed
4) You've got to be in it to win it. BJ has built his entire political career manoeuvring for this position. This is what happens when the PM steps down. Same was the case for May until she won her GE, although look how that turned out.

Ultimately it boils down to a myriad of screw-ups by the Conservative government, dating back to Cameron not being able to keep the party together, with a background of growing populist politics worldwide. Then the Conservatives attempting to run an election / referendum [sic] was a total and utter shower of sh!te, as expected.

We are where we are but I second referendum at this point (3 years down the line) could be swallowed by the electorate. It's about the time it takes to change government and it's fair to say that most people are better informed. That said, I doubt the scales would tip materially either way.

fenix

Got to love Farage for sticking it to the elites and standing up for the working man eh ?

Anyone joined his Brexit Party club ? https://www.thebrexitparty.org/?page_id=791

For just the sum of £100 a month you get er, emails and a scarf.

I'll never complain about my National Trust Membership again.

kingstongraham

Shirley Basso wrote:

sungod wrote:

fact: over 40 million british citizens in this country did not vote leave

On points 1) and 2)
1) If you didn't vote it doesn't count. The majority who voted, voted leave, and that's that, unfortunately. If I recall, the turnout was pretty high compared to General Elections. You can't make any assumptions about those who didn't turn up.

I can say they didn't care enough to vote. Don't sound like they are massively up for a chaotic upheaval on a fundamentalist reading of Brexit ideology.

shirley_basso

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

sungod wrote:

fact: over 40 million british citizens in this country did not vote leave

On points 1) and 2)
1) If you didn't vote it doesn't count. The majority who voted, voted leave, and that's that, unfortunately. If I recall, the turnout was pretty high compared to General Elections. You can't make any assumptions about those who didn't turn up.

I can say they didn't care enough to vote. Don't sound like they are massively up for a chaotic upheaval on a fundamentalist reading of Brexit ideology.

Unfortunately it's no-ones call to make and it is a terrible argument which I particularly hate. Coopster could just as easily argue the opposite in favour of his deluded utopian exit.

It will forever be the case every time there is a general election that a large proportion will not show up and noone gets to assume what they wanted.

coopster_the_1st

KingstonGraham wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

bompington wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm sure a TBP candidate would still prefer the WA to not leaving.

I think you're very, very wrong there. Not leaving means they get to boost their Betraying The Will of the People story to the max, they'd love it - as opposed to any actual Brexit, which could only be a disappointment.

Doesn't matter to them, they'll spin anything as not really leaving.

The WA was BRINO and the best choice for remoaners in opening up the option to re-joining, but they thought they thought they knew better than the electorate and thus are still trying for the undemocratic option. Hence we have TPB.

And I can confirm not leaving was the least worst option compared to the WA. Now remoaners are getting a taste of how democracy works and wetting themselves

I want TBP to go away but that will only happen if we leave on 31st Oct, with a deal or not and the deal must not be BRINO. Thankfully we now have a govt that now recongises this and is much more aligned to what the public wants.

You underestimate Farage. Even leaving without a deal will be a betrayal. Once we are out, negotiations will still need to happen to make a deal. That deal will not be good enough for Farage, because if it is, then he ceases to have any form of relevance.

The WA was not BRINO. It was the starting point of negotiations for a future relationship, and would only have lasted until the end of next year. ANY Brexit means negotiations continue.

It was the BRINO WA and those who do not want to respect the referendum result that brought Farage back to politics. He is now holding the govt's feet to the fire for delivering Brexit.

Farage will be extiguished, as he was in the 2017 GE, by the electorate if a proper Brexit is delivered This is really simple. If the UK starts ceding power back to Brussels then TBP will become an increasing influence in UK politics.

shirley_basso

He and his breed of politics needs to be extinguished.

Unfortunately he will always make an excuse for his existence and will continue to irritate. You clearly don't realise he doesn't actually care what agenda he pushes, so long as it gives his views a platform and he can make money from it. All he wants is to be famous, he doesn't give 2 stuffs about political success.

I'm sure he would have been far happier to lose the vote, soften his views and then come back at the Conservative Party again.

kingstongraham

Shirley Basso wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

sungod wrote:

fact: over 40 million british citizens in this country did not vote leave

On points 1) and 2)
1) If you didn't vote it doesn't count. The majority who voted, voted leave, and that's that, unfortunately. If I recall, the turnout was pretty high compared to General Elections. You can't make any assumptions about those who didn't turn up.

I can say they didn't care enough to vote. Don't sound like they are massively up for a chaotic upheaval on a fundamentalist reading of Brexit ideology.

Unfortunately it's no-ones call to make and it is a terrible argument which I particularly hate. Coopster could just as easily argue the opposite in favour of his deluded utopian exit.

It will forever be the case every time there is a general election that a large proportion will not show up and noone gets to assume what they wanted.

It's not an election.

It's not a terrible argument either. The proportion of those who want the hardest, most disruptive Brexit is important. You can make the case that some proportion of those who voted for Brexit want this, fair enough. Not a vast number would be my guess at the time but that's a guess. But if you care so much about getting Britain out of the clutches of the EU that you are willing to see living standards decline and substantial disruption - you'd go and vote for it.

If you didn't vote, you aren't that bothered. Those in favour of a disruptive Brexit who say that a majority of the population agree with them are extrapolating from a deliberately skewed assumption of the views of those that did vote, onto those generally disinterested - which makes even less logical sense.

shirley_basso

Fair enough - in rebuttal to 'the majority of the population' it works, but otherwise it's a non argument. Probably shouldn't be an argument from the Brexit side either, beyond the 52-48 result.

bompington

So John Curtice, aka the closest person to actually understanding what the British people want, was on the radio pointing out that the opinion polls haven't really shifted in any direction, ever. Still stuck on Remain ahead by - would you believe it - 52-48.
No deal of the preferred option of about half of Leavers, so those droning on about the Will of the People are either idiots, liars, or both (yes, I'm looking at you, Coops).

Come on, Leave: put your roubles where your mouth is: if it's the Will of the People, you'll happily have another referendum with the real choice (no deal) on the paper, and you'll walk it, right?

rjsterry

bompington wrote:

Will of the People

Is he related to will.i.am?

ballysmate

sungod wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

As you don't respect democracy or democratic outcomes, you no longer voting or leaving the country will only be an improvement for the UK as this country needs less whinging losers like you.

fact: over 40 million british citizens in this country did not vote leave

How many of those 40 million were in nurseries or creches? The fact remains (excuse the pun) that even more people voted not to Remain

fact: the leave campaign lied, distorted, and broke election law

Did the Remain campaign not spend an extra £9m of public funds on supplying a leaflet to every household?

fact: zero voted for leave with no deal, because that was not the platform of the leave campaign

Unless your ballot paper was different to mine, that is exactly what was on it. Stay or Leave. There were no boxes to tick for CU, Norway, Switzerland, Canada etc were there?

fact: only members of the tory party were allowed to choose johnson, he has no democratic mandate from the british people, he has no majority in parliament, which is supposed to be sovereign, but is instead ignored by a proven liar

That is how our system works. You vote for a MP and the party with the most seats usually gets to pick who it wants to be PM. If you are saying that a leader or PM has to have a direct popular mandate, where is the mandate for the EU leadership? I don't recall having a the opportunity to vote for Task or Junker. Perhaps I was on holiday that day.

brexiters still whine that it's everyone else that's to blame, even as they conspire to strip every citizen of their rights, trash the value of sterling, throw away the uk's influence, and pander to trump, a lying, self-confessed molester of young women, and apologist for far right extremists and racists, clearly a brexiter kind of guy, he's a whiner too



there's nothing democratic about the situation the country has been landed in by lying, whining brexiter traitors

There were 2 options, Remain or Leave. I fail to see how going with the option that received a majority of votes is undemocratic.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

The problem with Coopster as the most vocal and prominent Brexiter on a thread is that he just confirms all my, probably wrong, prejudices about the main strand of Brexiters; that they are thick as sh!t, faintly various minority-phobics and are very quick to recycle already terrible insults.

I guess that's the point though; makes folk like me seem even more supercilious than we already are.

Prior to the referendum there was a Lexit campaign. Left wing for Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... urosceptic

Owen Jones has never been described as any sort of minority phobe but he is certainly as thick as sh1t.

rjsterry

Jones seems to have changed his mind on Brexit from what I've seen lately.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Jones seems to have changed his mind on Brexit from what I've seen lately.

Changed his mind or been told to change his mind?

ballysmate

The Lexit movement was not just Owen Jones.

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

The Lexit movement was not just Owen Jones.

True. Corbyn has been a life long Eurosceptic who is now going against his long held beliefs, probably because he reckons it's his best shot at some form of power. Either that or he thinks it won't work and is just going through the motions hoping to capitalise afterwards.

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

sunglasses wrote:

fact: zero voted for leave with no deal, because that was not the platform of the leave campaign

Unless your ballot paper was different to mine, that is exactly what was on it. Stay or Leave. There were no boxes to tick for CU, Norway, Switzerland, Canada etc were there?

Yet they all include leaving the EU to some degree. The ballot paper did not qualify what leave meant in any way and supports neither argument.

More fundamentally, people seem to have forgotten that the referendum is not some tablet of stone forever more, nor can it bind the hands of parliament to take one route or another. Parliament can take whatever route it collectively votes for and is not required to do what voters want*. The parliament we chose did not want to leave without a deal, nor did it like any of the options very much.

People can moan about betrayal and failure to carry out the public's wishes but they elected this parliament and this is what parliament wishes.

*granted this is unlikely to be a good strategy for staying in parliament for more than one term.

Tl;dr

It doesn't matter what the referendum ballot paper said or what the result was; it's what parliament decides to do that counts.

coopster_the_1st

rjsterry wrote:

It doesn't matter what the referendum ballot paper said or what the result was; it's what parliament decides to do that counts.

Parliament delegated the decision to the people so is does not matter that parliament thinks we should have voted to remain.

In a referendum their vote is worth the same as yours and mine.

Tl;dr

It is for them to deliver leaving, not stall and try to overturn the democratic result. This is what TBP are now influencing as many of those in parliament have shown themselves to be spinless losers who don't respect democracy!