BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    If Bojo says all we need is unwavering belief to make things happen and overcome obsticles, then If I believe that my VAT bill should be lower and I enter negociations with HMRC with the demand unless my you drop my VAT bill I will withhold payment - will HMRC fold or will end up in prision.

    I have voted for this in my one man election so it the will of the person I say.

    Can I blame Bojo if it goes pear shaped in the prison showers?
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • frisbee
    frisbee Posts: 691
    If Bojo says all we need is unwavering belief to make things happen and overcome obsticles, then If I believe that my VAT bill should be lower and I enter negociations with HMRC with the demand unless my you drop my VAT bill I will withhold payment - will HMRC fold or will end up in prision.

    I have voted for this in my one man election so it the will of the person I say.

    Can I blame Bojo if it goes pear shaped in the prison showers?

    I'm just going up to the roof, I really believe I can fly...
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    well your handle is frisbee. thats unwavering belief.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Quality debate as usual lololol
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,562
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,562
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    Persuaded by what? Johnson and Raab talking b*llocks? Do you think they are believable? Even the ERG have their doubts.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    The British are determined to bullshit their way through Brexit.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    I said this before but it seems pretty obvious to me that Boris has deliberately done this in order to force Parliament into doing something to stop no deal so he doesn't lose face over it. That's why he's deliberately set out a completely uncompromising stance to the EU which doesn't leave any possibility for negotiation (they have to drop the WA and backstop before he will even speak to them - cloud cuckoo land). The only possible outcome of his current stance is a no deal.

    A bit of a high risk strategy.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    They're not going to drop the backstop.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Well, at least we're getting closer to knocking Brexit on the head.

    We've learnt a lot though. 10 years ago who'd have thunk that gammon, chavs, oaps and racists would have so much in common, it's lovely to hear them all getting along.

    The civil war will be interesting!
    Do you reckon they would get on well with people who make sweeping generalisations? :wink:


    v0_master.jpg

    It's not strictly accurate as it omits one Boer War and one Gulf War (there were 2 of each), Aden, Kenya, Cyprus and Suez (and the UK wasn't directly involved in Viet Nam). There was also the Cold War, mainly fought by proxy.

    Globally there is huge pent up demand for better living standards stoked by the increasing awareness spread by modern technology. At the same time, resources are finite and the world's climate appears not to be changing to our advantage.

    It's definitely getting more interesting.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    I find it odd that with Boris visiting rural Wales today farmer's groups there are warning of civil unrest in the area if there's a no deal Brexit. These areas were some of the most in favour of leaving but don't want no deal while we are constantly being told by the Brexit mouthpieces that we must leave to respect the vote even if that means no deal. It feels a bit like different people have different agendas based on their own self-interest (surely not).
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Rolf F wrote:
    Dominic Raab has claimed Britain will be in a better position to negotiate a “good deal” with the European Union if it crashes out of the bloc before the end of October.

    The foreign secretary believes a no-deal scenario could provide more leverage in the context of a free trade agreement and resolve long-standing issues such as the Irish backstop.

    The MP for Esher and Walton in Surrey also suggested the EU’s “stubborn” behaviour would be responsible if the UK left without a deal and refused to endorse Boris Johnson’s claim during his campaign for the Conservative leadership that the prospect of a no-deal Brexit was a-million-to-one against.

    On leaving without a deal after 31 October, Raab told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “The prospect of reverting and getting a good deal will be easier after we have left if that is the case. The reason being we do as an independent third country and less subject to effectively the demands of the EU as we are now.”

    I'm not sure that this bloke is actually of the same species as the rest of us...... Or does he think that EU membership is pretty much like your house insurance? Just renew as a new customer and get a better deal (ffs).

    Or does he actually not really believe any of this twaddle and is actually just saying stuff.....

    Yannis’s negotiating strategy is basically to pretend you are an unhinged loony capable of making irrational decisions. I suspect BoJo and Co have read his book.

    It doesn't sound like you have.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    Persuaded by what? Johnson and Raab talking b*llocks? Do you think they are believable? Even the ERG have their doubts.
    That's one for the EU. Will be interesting to see if they blink or not.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    Persuaded by what? Johnson and Raab talking b*llocks? Do you think they are believable? Even the ERG have their doubts.
    That's one for the EU. Will be interesting to see if they blink or not.
    They're still not going to drop the backstop.

    Because both sides have apparently agreed we can't have an Irish hard border, and there's no alternatives currently available, the only alternative seems to be an open ended transition period until such time as a solution is available. Which would annoy the ERG lot just as much.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    Persuaded by what? Johnson and Raab talking b*llocks? Do you think they are believable? Even the ERG have their doubts.
    That's one for the EU. Will be interesting to see if they blink or not.
    They're still not going to drop the backstop.

    Because both sides have apparently agreed we can't have an Irish hard border, and there's no alternatives currently available, the only alternative seems to be an open ended transition period until such time as a solution is available. Which would annoy the ERG lot just as much.
    If they don't blink then a no deal exit is the most likely outcome in my view.

    Parliament won't approve the Withdrawal Agreement - it has been rejected 3 times already. Nor does it look in any way likely that Parliament will revoke A50. Let's hope we don't get bounced into a no-deal Brexit because of EU intransigence.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Is this a different Dominic Raab to the one that was negotiating with the EU and came back with the backstop? Despite saying at the time that he favoured a "time-limit or a mechanism that enables the UK to leave, in case the EU doesn’t live up to its promise to get the future relationship in place swiftly."

    Then voted for the withdrawal agreement in the third vote.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Rolf F wrote:
    Dominic Raab has claimed Britain will be in a better position to negotiate a “good deal” with the European Union if it crashes out of the bloc before the end of October.

    The foreign secretary believes a no-deal scenario could provide more leverage in the context of a free trade agreement and resolve long-standing issues such as the Irish backstop.

    The MP for Esher and Walton in Surrey also suggested the EU’s “stubborn” behaviour would be responsible if the UK left without a deal and refused to endorse Boris Johnson’s claim during his campaign for the Conservative leadership that the prospect of a no-deal Brexit was a-million-to-one against.

    On leaving without a deal after 31 October, Raab told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “The prospect of reverting and getting a good deal will be easier after we have left if that is the case. The reason being we do as an independent third country and less subject to effectively the demands of the EU as we are now.”

    I'm not sure that this bloke is actually of the same species as the rest of us...... Or does he think that EU membership is pretty much like your house insurance? Just renew as a new customer and get a better deal (ffs).

    Or does he actually not really believe any of this twaddle and is actually just saying stuff.....

    Yannis’s negotiating strategy is basically to pretend you are an unhinged loony capable of making irrational decisions. I suspect BoJo and Co have read his book.

    It doesn't sound like you have.

    You are thinking of the wrong book
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    Persuaded by what? Johnson and Raab talking b*llocks? Do you think they are believable? Even the ERG have their doubts.
    That's one for the EU. Will be interesting to see if they blink or not.
    They're still not going to drop the backstop.

    Because both sides have apparently agreed we can't have an Irish hard border, and there's no alternatives currently available, the only alternative seems to be an open ended transition period until such time as a solution is available. Which would annoy the ERG lot just as much.
    If they don't blink then a no deal exit is the most likely outcome in my view.

    Parliament won't approve the Withdrawal Agreement - it has been rejected 3 times already. Nor does it look in any way likely that Parliament will revoke A50. Let's hope we don't get bounced into a no-deal Brexit because of EU intransigence.

    What points do you think the EU is being intransigent with?
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    Rolf F wrote:
    Dominic Raab has claimed Britain will be in a better position to negotiate a “good deal” with the European Union if it crashes out of the bloc before the end of October.

    The foreign secretary believes a no-deal scenario could provide more leverage in the context of a free trade agreement and resolve long-standing issues such as the Irish backstop.

    The MP for Esher and Walton in Surrey also suggested the EU’s “stubborn” behaviour would be responsible if the UK left without a deal and refused to endorse Boris Johnson’s claim during his campaign for the Conservative leadership that the prospect of a no-deal Brexit was a-million-to-one against.

    On leaving without a deal after 31 October, Raab told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “The prospect of reverting and getting a good deal will be easier after we have left if that is the case. The reason being we do as an independent third country and less subject to effectively the demands of the EU as we are now.”

    I'm not sure that this bloke is actually of the same species as the rest of us...... Or does he think that EU membership is pretty much like your house insurance? Just renew as a new customer and get a better deal (ffs).

    Or does he actually not really believe any of this twaddle and is actually just saying stuff.....

    Yannis’s negotiating strategy is basically to pretend you are an unhinged loony capable of making irrational decisions. I suspect BoJo and Co have read his book.

    It doesn't sound like you have.

    You are thinking of the wrong book

    Slightly more nuanced than that though isn't it?

    Also I'd say that despite being a bit of a minnow, Greece did have a tiny bit of leverage, because they were using the Euro. Arguably they did have the ability to bring the project down.

    Brexit doesn't.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,562
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    Persuaded by what? Johnson and Raab talking b*llocks? Do you think they are believable? Even the ERG have their doubts.
    That's one for the EU. Will be interesting to see if they blink or not.

    Perish the thought you'd answer a straight question. ;)

    By inference from your other post, you do believe them. Or at least they will play it that way until they have no time to do anything else?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Jez mon wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Dominic Raab has claimed Britain will be in a better position to negotiate a “good deal” with the European Union if it crashes out of the bloc before the end of October.

    The foreign secretary believes a no-deal scenario could provide more leverage in the context of a free trade agreement and resolve long-standing issues such as the Irish backstop.

    The MP for Esher and Walton in Surrey also suggested the EU’s “stubborn” behaviour would be responsible if the UK left without a deal and refused to endorse Boris Johnson’s claim during his campaign for the Conservative leadership that the prospect of a no-deal Brexit was a-million-to-one against.

    On leaving without a deal after 31 October, Raab told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “The prospect of reverting and getting a good deal will be easier after we have left if that is the case. The reason being we do as an independent third country and less subject to effectively the demands of the EU as we are now.”

    I'm not sure that this bloke is actually of the same species as the rest of us...... Or does he think that EU membership is pretty much like your house insurance? Just renew as a new customer and get a better deal (ffs).

    Or does he actually not really believe any of this twaddle and is actually just saying stuff.....

    Yannis’s negotiating strategy is basically to pretend you are an unhinged loony capable of making irrational decisions. I suspect BoJo and Co have read his book.

    It doesn't sound like you have.

    You are thinking of the wrong book

    Slightly more nuanced than that though isn't it?

    Also I'd say that despite being a bit of a minnow, Greece did have a tiny bit of leverage, because they were using the Euro. Arguably they did have the ability to bring the project down.

    Brexit doesn't.

    I could quite believe that Cummings is using the loons to try and scare the EU into a better deal.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Boris is hedging his bets on a new Eu parliament being prepared to reopen negotiations about which he is probably correct that they will and Boris will claim a first victory.
    However, they won't make any fundamental shifts. So the question is, how subtle a shift in position will BJ be prepared to put to parliament and how subtle a shift will parliament accept to avoid no deal?
    I can't pretend to know his motivation, the no deal marketing is either a negotiating strategy more for the Eu's benefit to build the sense that he's deadly serious about no deal or he genuinely is now pursuing no deal.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    morstar wrote:
    Boris is hedging his bets on a new Eu parliament being prepared to reopen negotiations about which he is probably correct that they will and Boris will claim a first victory.
    However, they won't make any fundamental shifts. So the question is, how subtle a shift in position will BJ be prepared to put to parliament and how subtle a shift will parliament accept to avoid no deal?
    I can't pretend to know his motivation, the no deal marketing is either a negotiating strategy more for the Eu's benefit to build the sense that he's deadly serious about no deal or he genuinely is now pursuing no deal.

    Fascinating, isn't it?
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Is it up to the EU parliament to reopen?
    I thought this was at EU27 leadership levels now
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Quality debate as usual lololol
    It's good as ever to see people putting forward balanced views.

    There won't be a lot of UK - EU debate after Boris refused to talk to EU leaders unless they are prepared to reopen the negotiations.

    In which case we're heading for a showdown in Parliament.
    Maybe in September when Parliament is back?

    In the meantime let's see if the EU can be persuaded to show some much needed flexibility and pragmatism.

    Persuaded by what? Johnson and Raab talking b*llocks? Do you think they are believable? Even the ERG have their doubts.
    That's one for the EU. Will be interesting to see if they blink or not.

    Perish the thought you'd answer a straight question. ;)

    By inference from your other post, you do believe them. Or at least they will play it that way until they have no time to do anything else?
    But its not a question for me...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Robert88 wrote:
    morstar wrote:
    Boris is hedging his bets on a new Eu parliament being prepared to reopen negotiations about which he is probably correct that they will and Boris will claim a first victory.
    However, they won't make any fundamental shifts. So the question is, how subtle a shift in position will BJ be prepared to put to parliament and how subtle a shift will parliament accept to avoid no deal?
    I can't pretend to know his motivation, the no deal marketing is either a negotiating strategy more for the Eu's benefit to build the sense that he's deadly serious about no deal or he genuinely is now pursuing no deal.

    Fascinating, isn't it?

    It kind of is. We seem to have come so far and yet covered so little distance. The positions are essentially unmoved since the 2017 GE. Unfavourable parliamentary maths (for any position) and an unacceptable to parliament default position that is still touted as our main leverage.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Is it up to the EU parliament to reopen?
    I thought this was at EU27 leadership levels now
    You're probably right. I still think there will be openness to one last hurrah though. Although they don't like Boris, they would prefer to avoid no-deal. They know they won't concede much anyway but if it allows BJ to dress up minor shifts as the 'Best Deal ever' in true Trump fashion, they may just go along with that to get closure.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    4 things which WON'T happen

    1 - DUP won't vote for any WA which includes the backstop
    2 - The ERG hardcore won't vote for any WA
    3 - The EU won't change the WA. other than what they've already said they would
    4 - The Corbynites in the Labour won't vote for any WA
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!