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Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • mlgtmlgt Posts: 366
    Spin Wheels might scratch your itch for Black and red, with the added advantage of replacement spokes and rims not being cripplingly expensive, and they have the advantage of wider rims.

    Thanks I had come across these and read reviews. But I am certain I will get handbuilts. Must resist temptation with the branded wheels. Even though the RS81 C35 were a good price.

    In the meantime I will continue to ride more, lose a little more weight and then contact Ugo in the near future.

    Just must resist temptation....... arghhhh :D
    N2 - SW1

    Canyon Endurace 9.0
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Correction ugo it is possible to build sorry assemnle (i do think that is a better term come to think of it) 1300g wheels that are very stiff it just light weight hubs are needed and there's the comprimise. Generally you reach for the pacenti sl23 rim or the ryde pulse sprint. For example the pacenti rim on carbon ti hub would be 1300g actualy 1280g but the hubs are expensive and have small bearings. No idea how long the bearings would last but it is doable.

    all very light wheels have a comprimise.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    I think of factory wheels as racehorses and hand built wheels as camels. Both have their place... decide which you want.

    I personally never buy anything asking "if I smash it up how hard will it be to replace?" If we did, who would buy carbon frames costing thousands of pounds?

    In fact if we did ask that, we would all be riding camels and none of us would know what it was like to ride a race horse.

    Well no, not really. Anyone who buys handbuilt wheels knows exactly what it is like to ride a racehorse. They just don't know what it is like to ride a racehorse that doesn't look like a camel.......... (except of course that that is where the analogy breaks down - the factory wheel looks identical to the handbuilt wheel when you are riding the bike and in theory should perform better ...... And of course, some people might argue that the camel looks better than the racehorse anyway!).

    You wouldn't get this argument in Suitradar - the concept that a mass produced item is somehow better than made to measure because it has shinier stripes on it.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • t4tomot4tomo Posts: 2,643
    mlgt wrote:
    I would enjoy a black colour scheme with some red thrown in. What are my choices? My bike is matt black (boring) But I did think about adding the mavic ksyrium sl's on the bike at first but as stated wanted something new. (I am a bike tart. I admit it :D )

    So you have an ageing pair of Ksyrium SL, probably still good and a new pair of DT Swiss spline 23... so you have already a set for fancy riding and one for commuting/training... :roll: but fancy the DA CL 24 because of the red nipples... correct? :wink:
    Who can resist red nipples? :D
    Hang on is this as cycling forum?
    Bianchi Infinito CV
    Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Ultegra
    Brompton S Type
    Carrera Vengeance Ultimate Ltd
    Gary Fisher Aquila '98
    Front half of a Viking Saratoga Tandem
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Rolf not all factory wheels will perform better than a handbuilt like not all handbuilts will perform better than a factory well. First you have to define perform better and the relative biases of the criteria you select. That is the thing no one agree on so saying one performs better than the other is almost meaningless. One is different to other and has plus points and negatives. All wheelset have that. Pick the one that suits you best. Folk agonise over this and the one thing to remember if a wheel stay round and straight and does not break spokes it is a good wheel whoever made it. That should be the first and last criteria to select a wheel on.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • londoncommuterlondoncommuter Posts: 1,550
    Slight thread hijack but I'm being really indecisive about wheels and am looking at some of the ones mentioned above.

    I do want: clinchers

    I'd prefer: deeper sections, maybe 38mm (shamefully, just for the look...)
    wider rims (I'd still run 23c tyres)
    a reasonable weight

    I don't want: tubeless ready (after experiencing getting tyres on and off Pacenti SL23s!)

    I'm not desperately fussed about: brake tracks (they'll be for dry use in flats bit of the UK)

    The above has kind of left me looking at a sensible option of RS81 C35. They're not wide though and are reasonably heavy at 1,631g. I appreciate that you have to throw them away when the rim wears.

    Something that ticks all of the above for around the same price are some carbon clinchers from Zuus (http://www.zuus.co.uk/). The 38mm aren't shown but they'll be 200g lighter and have wider rims. Completely unknown build quality and who knows how long the rims would last.

    Play it safe or chance what are really just rebranded ebay carbon clinchers?

    Or save around £70 and get some boring Ksyrium Elites....
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    An 38 mm deep wide alloy rim does not exist as no one would buy it. It would be heavy. the only 38mm deep alloy rim is the kinlin xr380 ad weighs 565g. It narrow as well 13mm internal width. Frankly you are better off with a shallower rim.

    If you are having trouble getting tyres on and off pancenti sl23 ris you need to practice your techique. I do it all the time without issue. What tyres are you usIng? Verdestien tri comp fortezza, all conti tyres, vittoria corsa's can all be fitted with your hands alone With thick velox cloth tape.

    You will have to go with carbon rim to get wide and deep. And stop worrying about weight. The DAc35 are light enough. I know if i used a 38mm deep carbkn clincher the wheels would not be much lighter. To get a 18mm internal width with a carbon rim you will need one 25mm wide. 23mm wide carbon rims are 16mm internal width Normally.

    Do not dismiss tubeless rims as once yoj have your tyre fitting technique sorted out then they become very useable.
    wide and deep toriodal rims make sence for the aerodynamic properties if they are deep say 50mm. The aero beneifits of a shallower rim is less and i wonder if its worth it. 38mm deep 300g tubular rims fir enough but 38mm deep carbon clinchers are not that mucn moe aerodynamic than a pacenti rim, no lighter and more expensive.

    So if i were you go really deep or stick with alloy clinchers. Unless you could be persuaded to start usimg proper tyres, tubulars. Then there are some nice options out there.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • holiverholiver Posts: 800
    Superstar are now doing a 31mm deep, 25mm wide rim that weighs in at ~500g.

    http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/a ... ro-rim.htm

    They are tubeless ready though.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Thats a new kinlin rim and a light wheelset close to da c24 weight is not going to happen with this rim. It will be stiff though.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • londoncommuterlondoncommuter Posts: 1,550

    If you are having trouble getting tyres on and off pancenti sl23 ris you need to practice your techique. I do it all the time without issue. What tyres are you usIng? Verdestien tri comp fortezza, all conti tyres, vittoria corsa's can all be fitted with your hands alone With thick velox cloth tape.

    You will have to go with carbon rim to get wide and deep. And stop worrying about weight. The DAc35 are light enough. I know if i used a 38mm deep carbkn clincher the wheels would not be much lighter. To get a 18mm internal width with a carbon rim you will need one 25mm wide. 23mm wide carbon rims are 16mm internal width Normally.

    Thanks for all the advice. I think I am pretty rubbish at putting tyres on but in my slight defence a lot of people do have issues with those rims (I should have listened to Ugo when buying them with no intention of running them tubeless.....).

    That's interesting about the rim width on carbon clinchers. Zuus claim 23/17 on theirs. I guess that's still 1mm narrower than the SL23's but hopefully will still give most of the advantages over "standard" rims?

    If I really do want ease of fitting and therefore no tubeless ready rims, do you think width is more important than depth? I could be persuaded to go for 50mm instead but I've willingly let myself be taken in by the argument that 38mm is the new 50mm.

    Are the RS81 C35 the worst of all words or a good compromise? Not aero enough to make up for their narrower rims and slight weight penalty over aluminium clinchers or better braking and more reliable than dodgy carbon clinchers with the same aero advantage?

    Leaning towards carbon clincher still but don't want to make another silly decision.
  • londoncommuterlondoncommuter Posts: 1,550

    Zuus claim 23/17 on theirs.

    Oh, is this a bit of a con? Looking at a diagram for the S60 the bit they quote as 17mm internal width (actually 16.5mm) is different from the point everyone else measures:

    http://www.zuus.co.uk/zuus-s60-carbon-f ... rim-depth/

    The actual narrowest point is 13.5mm
  • morphmorph Posts: 63
    Quite related to this, away in Lanzarote my gf trashed a front C24 rim. She's going to replace the front wheel (happy with C24s for racing, she doesn't weigh much etc)

    Any ideas on best suggestions to do with the hub? Build it onto a medium depth carbon rim for when too windy for the 60mm ones we have? Not much point building a 16 spoke training wheel...
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    Rolf not all factory wheels will perform better than a handbuilt like not all handbuilts will perform better than a factory well.

    In theory, a handbuilt ought to perform better than a factory wheel as you can design it to suit the needs of the rider. That's my point - I can spend £600 on a 1450g Campag wheelset or £300 on a 1360g handbuilt set. The handbuilt might only be good for dry days but then why would I want to use a £600 wheelset in censored weather - it's not as though I would appreciate its finer qualities in that circumstance. And maybe the lightweight wheelset won't suit someone of 15 stone - but I only weigh 9.5 stone. So if I spend £600 on the Campag wheelset, I am buying a heavier wheelset that can carry a much heavier rider than me in weather conditions I don't wish to ride it in.

    So the logical conclusion is that if you are heavy, then factory wheels should perform as well as, or better than handbuilts (because they are made for heavy people) but if you are light, you should be able to get a better performing wheel by getting it handbuilt.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    As a rule of thumb, on this thread and in most threads on this forum, the word performance is abused and the word passion is not used enough.

    I think a lot of folks should look inside themselves and question whether peroformance is something they really want,or it is only perr pressure, as it doesn't come hand in hand with passion, which is more likely the reason they cycle.

    To give you an example: doing interval training has nothing to do with passion, in fact it is rather painful and dreadful, but it works to improve performance, while going for a beautiful ride has very little to do with performance and it probably won't do much to improve it, but it fuels your passion.

    Basically, chill out and enjoy the journey, nobody is chasing you... :wink:
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    londoncomutor, I will be be frank the reason why alot of people have trouble fitting tyres to Pacenti SL23 rims is quite alot of people are rubbish at fitting tyres. I see people struggling with tyres all the time and when I get hold hold of the wheel the tyre goes on with ease (I actually dont like doing this as folk are quite resistant to accepting help also). Technique is key and as some tyre almost fall of and on, people think that is the way it should always be. It isn't though and that is where leaning how to do it properly comes in. If you are having trouble ask your LBS if they will give you a tutorial. I would if you came up (I wouldn't even charge).

    Simply practice - you are a human being so am I if I can do it so can you! It's really that simple.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,928
    To give you an example: doing interval training has nothing to do with passion, in fact it is rather painful and dreadful, but it works to improve performance, while going for a beautiful ride has very little to do with performance and it probably won't do much to improve it, but it fuels your passion.

    Well said that man!
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    Simply practice - you are a human being so am I if I can do it so can you! It's really that simple.

    You keep saying that, but I completely disagree. Some people don't have the time or the inclination to become amazing at fitting tyres. You do that for a living, others don't. I can't see many being willing to spend a sunday afternoon to fit a tyre so thay can become better. The answer is to avoid that particular rim/tyre.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,788 Lives Here
    Simply practice - you are a human being so am I if I can do it so can you! It's really that simple.

    You keep saying that, but I completely disagree. Some people don't have the time or the inclination to become amazing at fitting tyres. You do that for a living, others don't. I can't see many being willing to spend a sunday afternoon to fit a tyre so thay can become better. The answer is to avoid that particular rim/tyre.
    You are both right. Ugo is right that most people don't have the time or inclination. But the time spent in improving technique might turn out to be time well spent next time they get a flat miles away from home and it's cold, wet and dark.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    veronese68 wrote:
    Simply practice - you are a human being so am I if I can do it so can you! It's really that simple.

    You keep saying that, but I completely disagree. Some people don't have the time or the inclination to become amazing at fitting tyres. You do that for a living, others don't. I can't see many being willing to spend a sunday afternoon to fit a tyre so thay can become better. The answer is to avoid that particular rim/tyre.
    You are both right. Ugo is right that most people don't have the time or inclination. But the time spent in improving technique might turn out to be time well spent next time they get a flat miles away from home and it's cold, wet and dark.

    Possibly... I would say I have fitted enough tyres to be proficient... even tubeless tyres/rims... for the love of God I could not remove a Schwalbe from one of those Superstar Pacenti wheels... there was simply no room to even slide the lever under the bead once the bead was in the channel... maybe one of those VAR tools was needed... maybe it was a tighter than normal tyre... maybe this or maybe that, I am not sure how technique was going to help there. It's a bit like asking to learn to torque a bolt without a tool, with bare hands, it's just daft...
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,928
    As an average Joe Punter, if I was faced with having to ask my LBS for a tutorial to remove a particular brand of tyre from a wheel I would just change to another brand. I can swap my tyres/tubes fairly quickly and have no desire to develop this into a specialist art form.
  • mlgtmlgt Posts: 366
    Good to see the thread updated and bought back on topic somewhat.

    Can I ask what is an alternative to a SL23? In what comparison is this to a "C24"?
    Also the other question is the DTSwiss R23, Ugo you mention its poorly put together. In which sense?
    The wheel that came with my bike is true and is robust, my only downside is that I feel it isn't that well protected from the elements.
    Final question is please suggest a wheelset based on Pacenti SL23 on something like an Ultegra/hope hub. With a similar budget? I know its almost saying how long is a piece of string, but at least I kinda know what I am aiming for currently.

    Im debating if I want to get a SL23 over my current DTswiss when it is considered a slight upgrade or go for something a little deeper. But undecided as I would love a deeper set of wheels which I guess 30mm, but are they similar to build to a standard clincher? Also would I need to think about different brake pads?
    N2 - SW1

    Canyon Endurace 9.0
  • londoncommuterlondoncommuter Posts: 1,550
    mlgt wrote:
    Can I ask what is an alternative to a SL23?

    Kinlin XC-279?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    mlgt wrote:
    Also the other question is the DTSwiss R23, Ugo you mention its poorly put together. In which sense?

    IME DT Swiss wheels are often underbuilt... low tension, they go out of alignment very easily and they break spokes
  • on-yer-bikeon-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    mlgt wrote:
    Can I ask what is an alternative to a SL23?

    Kinlin XC-279?
    Archytype.
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • londoncommuterlondoncommuter Posts: 1,550
    mlgt wrote:
    Can I ask what is an alternative to a SL23?

    Kinlin XC-279?
    Archytype.

    If you're sensible enough not to let the worn anodising on the brake tracks bother you (I'm stupidly not....)
  • lostboysaintlostboysaint Posts: 4,369
    Velocity A23
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    Archytype.

    If you're sensible enough not to let the worn anodising on the brake tracks bother you (I'm stupidly not....)

    Or get the silver ones?
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    Possibly... I would say I have fitted enough tyres to be proficient... even tubeless tyres/rims... for the love of God I could not remove a Schwalbe from one of those Superstar Pacenti wheels... there was simply no room to even slide the lever under the bead once the bead was in the channel... maybe one of those VAR tools was needed... maybe it was a tighter than normal tyre... maybe this or maybe that, I am not sure how technique was going to help there. It's a bit like asking to learn to torque a bolt without a tool, with bare hands, it's just daft...

    I had just as much trouble fitting a pair of 25mm tubeless Ones to my Superstar Sl23s. They were an absolute nightmare and I'm probably going to have to butcher them off when it comes to it. If anyone could have fitted my tyres to my rims with their bare hands, then they probably have anger and gamma radiation issues. I've fitted plenty of normal tyres to various rims and tubeless Ones to my converted Archtypes all without issue.
  • LegendLustLegendLust Posts: 1,022
    veronese68 wrote:
    Simply practice - you are a human being so am I if I can do it so can you! It's really that simple.

    You keep saying that, but I completely disagree. Some people don't have the time or the inclination to become amazing at fitting tyres. You do that for a living, others don't. I can't see many being willing to spend a sunday afternoon to fit a tyre so thay can become better. The answer is to avoid that particular rim/tyre.
    You are both right. Ugo is right that most people don't have the time or inclination. But the time spent in improving technique might turn out to be time well spent next time they get a flat miles away from home and it's cold, wet and dark.

    Possibly... I would say I have fitted enough tyres to be proficient... even tubeless tyres/rims... for the love of God I could not remove a Schwalbe from one of those Superstar Pacenti wheels... there was simply no room to even slide the lever under the bead once the bead was in the channel... maybe one of those VAR tools was needed... maybe it was a tighter than normal tyre... maybe this or maybe that, I am not sure how technique was going to help there. It's a bit like asking to learn to torque a bolt without a tool, with bare hands, it's just daft...

    Don't bother. I snapped a VAR tool trying to get a Schwalbe tyre off a Pacenti rim.

    However I have now developed a good technique and can get one on and off with just two normal tyre levers
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    Share your wisdom. Or was is a non-tubeless tyre? I don't have any probs with those.
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