Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • jdee84
    jdee84 Posts: 291
    Yeah that seems to be the way of it. Would the tune hubs be better than the standard hed ones on their HED Ardennes Plus SL 2016 http://www.hedwheels.com/proddetail.asp?prod=ARDSLPLUS?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    jdee84 wrote:
    Yeah that seems to be the way of it. Would the tune hubs be better than the standard hed ones on their HED Ardennes Plus SL 2016 http://www.hedwheels.com/proddetail.asp?prod=ARDSLPLUS?

    My experience of Tune is: I have only ever seen them when there was a problem and we never managed to solve the problem... typically noises and creaks with unknown origin.

    Never had problems with HED hubs, they seem reasonably good
    left the forum March 2023
  • jdee84
    jdee84 Posts: 291
    Thanks for your advice ugo, much appreciated!
  • Interesting, I was just about to post is the £599 a reasonable deal for the Ardennes+!

    Also, what is the difference between the Hed Belgium and Ardennes, are they essentially the same?

    Cheers
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    apprent1ce wrote:
    Interesting, I was just about to post is the £599 a reasonable deal for the Ardennes+!

    Also, what is the difference between the Hed Belgium and Ardennes, are they essentially the same?

    Cheers

    If you talk about the plus version, the rims are the same, the non plus version the rims were different. Hubs are different in the different versions

    600 quid is a reasonable deal... you can get the same built by Malcolm at the Cycleclinic on Dura Ace hubs for similar money and I rate DA hubs over the Tune

    I'd rather not buy 600 quid worth of hand-built wheels from Planet X to be honest... their customer service will be limited to a refund/replace policy, while an artisan will give you far more support
    left the forum March 2023
  • jdee84
    jdee84 Posts: 291
    Apparently the Ardennes Plus rim is made from a different alloy to the the belgium plus rim making it slightly lighter, also the rear rim od the ardennes plus rim has off set drilling while the belgium plus does not.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    jdee84 wrote:
    Apparently the Ardennes Plus rim is made from a different alloy to the the belgium plus rim making it slightly lighter, also the rear rim od the ardennes plus rim has off set drilling while the belgium plus does not.

    That was the case for the non PLUS, as I understand there is only one PLUS rim
    left the forum March 2023
  • Thanks, Ugo

    The Ardennes + LT now £600 from Hed, they were £800 earlier this week - possibly a price match?

    http://www.hedwheels.com/proddetail.asp?prod=ARDLTPLUS

    Will try and get over to Cycleclinic and speak to Malcolm
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    That also sums up what i think about tune. The u.k distributor would not give me an account when I asked a while back. When I tried again they never got back to me. Never had that before from a distributor. The price Planet X have is a good one but it also shows that tune hubs are over priced in the U.K. If you buy them from starbike they are alot cheaper but then the u.k distributor wont want to know about warranty issues. I tried once with customer supplied hubs from germany. All in all not a stellar experience. That is a shame because it hard to suggest them to anyone as you need warranty back up. Also there are special freehub puller tools this again is not brilliant as hubs should come apart with ease. Shimano campagnolo, Royce, Miche, White Industries, PMP, almost everyone has that figured out.

    Tune hubs have bearing preload that is set by shims. You add or remove the shims by trail and error which is simply annoying. The Tune Mag180 had alot of creaking issues but the new 170's are meant to have addressed the issue. I am sure it has for the most part so it may not be all bad just not too sunny. Like todays weather really.

    That is my own personal opinion. There are plenty of people who build with them and ride them. They don't all have issues or Tune would have gone bust by now.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Attached are hand built wheels from Merlin with Ultegra hub, Mavic open pro Rims and ACI spokes for £225. Decent spec and price - can anyone recommend hand built wheels from Merlin?

    https://www.merlincycles.com/pair-shima ... 74862.html
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    That is a wheelset sold for what the parts shoild be selling for seperatley. Personally i would not think it is any more reliable (due to number of reasons) than a set of fulcrum racing 5's in fact i think they are a better wheel overall.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Ok chaps. Summer approaching winter disc brake bike about to be put in to storage. Looking at wheels, limited clearance and will be running 23mm tubeless. Looking at the Novatec Jetfly which I have seen for £309 or the Impulse? OR Handbuilt but not got a clue where to start on handbuilt.
  • Ok chaps. Summer approaching winter disc brake bike about to be put in to storage. Looking at wheels, limited clearance and will be running 23mm tubeless. Looking at the Novatec Jetfly which I have seen for £309 or the Impulse? OR Handbuilt but not got a clue where to start on handbuilt.
    Have you looked at Hunt? http://www.huntbikewheels.com/collectio ... ake-wheels

    If you're planning to run 23's maybe give the 'wide' ones a miss, the 'race season' and '4 season' are still both plenty wide enough to accommodate anything you'd ever feasibly want to put on a road bike if you ever changed your mind. They're big on tubeless as a company so you're covered there.

    Full disclosure, I don't own their wheels but if it weren't for 1. not knowing about them last time I bought a set of wheels for my summer bike and 2. having a friend build me a pair at a price I couldn't refuse last time I bought a pair for my disc bike, I probably would own a pair.
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    Ok chaps. Summer approaching winter disc brake bike about to be put in to storage. Looking at wheels, limited clearance and will be running 23mm tubeless. Looking at the Novatec Jetfly which I have seen for £309 or the Impulse? OR Handbuilt but not got a clue where to start on handbuilt.

    If you want 23mm tubeless rims, look at my DT Swiss RR440 thread (in footer).
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    edited April 2016
    I am gonna be building up some disc brake road wheels - I weigh in at 75kg and carry a decent amount of luggage (maybe 10kg at maximum). I also spend huge amounts of my riding time on canal paths, river bank paths and cruddy london roads - so I don't want super light and delicate; they need to be fairly robust. I will probably stick to 28mm tyres or maybe 33mm - but no larger as the forks are pretty full at 33mm. At present I haven't converted to tubeless - but so many advocates here manke me think that I will give it a try sooner rather than later. I don't want to be spending Zipp carbon 4 figure sums - but hopefully 300-500.

    At present I was thinking of another set of reliable Archetype rims which I used for last rim brake wheelset and am really happy with - that's 100 quid of budget so rest on a couple of hubs and spokes however not set on these if there is a better alternative (love the look of Belgium+ but a little too pricey I think). I have only used DT Competition in the past and they seemed brilliant - but open to change. And the only set of disc hubs I have built from were bargain basement ebay jobbies for commuter - so no idea where to start.

    So Paolo, Malcolm, et al what is the current best thinking? For 500 pound budget - what proportion on rims, on hubs, on spokes? And what recommendations? Thanks all your help - and thanks for the great thread it really does help.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    imatfaal wrote:
    So Paolo, Malcolm, et al what is the current best thinking? For 500 pound budget - what proportion on rims, on hubs, on spokes? And what recommendations? Thanks all your help - and thanks for the great thread it really does help.

    Get the best hubs you can afford, all the problems start and often end at the hub. Hope are nice of course, but check 11 speed compatibility if you need it.

    Archetype are very solid rims and I can't see anything better. DT comp or Sapim race fit your purpose, unless you want to go even stronger and fit some Sapim Strong or DT Alpine 3 at the back... for the latter be careful as they only fit some hubs (they do fit Hope)... for example they don't fit Shimano hubs

    Why do you carry so much luggage?
    left the forum March 2023
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    imatfaal wrote:
    So Paolo, Malcolm, et al what is the current best thinking? For 500 pound budget - what proportion on rims, on hubs, on spokes? And what recommendations? Thanks all your help - and thanks for the great thread it really does help.

    Get the best hubs you can afford, all the problems start and often end at the hub. Hope are nice of course, but check 11 speed compatibility if you need it.

    Archetype are very solid rims and I can't see anything better. DT comp or Sapim race fit your purpose, unless you want to go even stronger and fit some Sapim Strong or DT Alpine 3 at the back... for the latter be careful as they only fit some hubs (they do fit Hope)... for example they don't fit Shimano hubs

    Why do you carry so much luggage?

    Thanks - that's exactly what I needed. On the luggage - I have just amended to say that is the maximum; most days it is laptop, tool kit, and files (paperless office my arse!) I also intend to use this bike to make trips to nearest and dearest and will need overnight clothes, shoes, and obligatory bottles of booze.
  • Out and about on the Wheelsmith race 30`s yesterday.

    Basically an IRD cadence aero rim built onto Dura ace hubs.

    The rims are 24mm wide and I`m running 25mm Bontrager R3`s.

    Came to a long fast downhill section and just let the bike go, WOW ! I could actually feel the bike get to 60kph then lunge forward !

    I wasn`t sure how much of an "aero " effect you would get on a 30mm deep rim, but you certainly get something for sure. The bike shot up to around 85kph or so in a manner that it never would have on the standard Bontrager RXL`s that the bike came with.

    The other thing that is very noticeable is how well they climb, they are very stiff !

    Impressed,? I`ll say !
    Trek,,,, too cool for school ,, apparently
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    The bike shot up to around 85kph or so

    Which descent?
    left the forum March 2023
  • With regard to hubs, how do the hed Ardennes Plus SL, Black Sonic hubs rate?
  • thepeginator
    thepeginator Posts: 147
    edited April 2016
    imatfaal wrote:
    I am gonna be building up some disc brake road wheels - I weigh in at 75kg and carry a decent amount of luggage (maybe 10kg at maximum). I also spend huge amounts of my riding time on canal paths, river bank paths and cruddy london roads - so I don't want super light and delicate; they need to be fairly robust. I will probably stick to 28mm tyres or maybe 33mm - but no larger as the forks are pretty full at 33mm. At present I haven't converted to tubeless - but so many advocates here manke me think that I will give it a try sooner rather than later. I don't want to be spending Zipp carbon 4 figure sums - but hopefully 300-500.

    At present I was thinking of another set of reliable Archetype rims which I used for last rim brake wheelset and am really happy with - that's 100 quid of budget so rest on a couple of hubs and spokes however not set on these if there is a better alternative (love the look of Belgium+ but a little too pricey I think). I have only used DT Competition in the past and they seemed brilliant - but open to change. And the only set of disc hubs I have built from were bargain basement ebay jobbies for commuter - so no idea where to start.

    So Paolo, Malcolm, et al what is the current best thinking? For 500 pound budget - what proportion on rims, on hubs, on spokes? And what recommendations? Thanks all your help - and thanks for the great thread it really does help.
    I have a pair of Pacenti SL25 laced to Novatec D711/712 with 28 Sapim Race spokes, hand built by a friend of mine. They're absolutely bomb proof and pretty light/fast considering, I think they come in around 1600-1700g. I took the bike into my LBS for a fit a little while ago and the said they looked considerably overbuilt for me (I'm 68kg on a good day), which they almost certainly are. He said they sell Novatecs factory equivalent ('Novatec Jetfly' I think) to guys over 100kg as road disc wheels and says they fair very well.

    That said, although I've already mentioned them once today, Hunt might be worth a look. http://www.huntbikewheels.com/collectio ... isc-wheels I suspect the 'Dura Disc' or the 'Gravel Disc' would both suit your needs, even the gravel disc at £350 would leave you with change, even with £100 allocated for tyres.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    That said, although I've already mentioned them once today, Hunt might be worth a look.

    You have, I think we got the message loud and clear the first time...
    left the forum March 2023
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    ....
    I have a pair of Pacenti SL25 laced to Novatec D711/712 with 28 Sapim Race spokes, hand built by a friend of mine. They're absolutely bomb proof and pretty light/fast considering, I think they come in around 1600-1700g. I took the bike into my LBS for a fit a little while ago and the said they looked considerably overbuilt for me (I'm 68kg on a good day), which they almost certainly are. He said they sell Novatecs factory equivalent ('Novatec Jetfly' I think) to guys over 100kg as road disc wheels and says they fair very well.

    Not sure at present of the tangible benefits of the SL25s over the Archetypes. And I would also baulk at spending twice as much on the rims as on the hubs - especially considering what one of our resident builders posted above; but then that is the exact combination that Malcolm got a product of the week in Cycling Weekly for so maybe i should reconsider.
    ....
    That said, although I've already mentioned them once today, Hunt might be worth a look. http://www.huntbikewheels.com/collectio ... isc-wheels I suspect the 'Dura Disc' or the 'Gravel Disc' would both suit your needs, even the gravel disc at £350 would leave you with change, even with £100 allocated for tyres.

    Oh No - I want to build. As one of the experienced builders said in blog (not sure which - maybe both) - a fair proportion of the reason to build wheels is the therapeutic value
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,833
    imatfaal wrote:
    ....
    I have a pair of Pacenti SL25 laced to Novatec D711/712 with 28 Sapim Race spokes, hand built by a friend of mine. They're absolutely bomb proof and pretty light/fast considering, I think they come in around 1600-1700g. I took the bike into my LBS for a fit a little while ago and the said they looked considerably overbuilt for me (I'm 68kg on a good day), which they almost certainly are. He said they sell Novatecs factory equivalent ('Novatec Jetfly' I think) to guys over 100kg as road disc wheels and says they fair very well.

    Not sure at present of the tangible benefits of the SL25s over the Archetypes. And I would also baulk at spending twice as much on the rims as on the hubs - especially considering what one of our resident builders posted above; but then that is the exact combination that Malcolm got a product of the week in Cycling Weekly for so maybe i should reconsider.
    ....
    That said, although I've already mentioned them once today, Hunt might be worth a look. http://www.huntbikewheels.com/collectio ... isc-wheels I suspect the 'Dura Disc' or the 'Gravel Disc' would both suit your needs, even the gravel disc at £350 would leave you with change, even with £100 allocated for tyres.

    Oh No - I want to build. As one of the experienced builders said in blog (not sure which - maybe both) - a fair proportion of the reason to build wheels is the therapeutic value

    SL25s are a bit lighter, a bit wider and a bit deeper than the Archetypes. Whether those things make the price difference worthwhile is a matter for you.

    There is an argument that it makes sense to buy the best rims you can afford for a disc brake build because they're not going to wear out!
  • The bike shot up to around 85kph or so

    Which descent?

    https://www.strava.com/segments/1087188


    Sheep were a bit flighty and that road is not in the best condition just now or I was going to push for a lot more.
    Trek,,,, too cool for school ,, apparently
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325

    https://www.strava.com/segments/1087188


    Sheep were a bit flighty and that road is not in the best condition just now or I was going to push for a lot more.

    :D
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I quite like the Kinlin XR22 RTS OCR catchy name. Offset disc brake version of the Kinlin XR22t. However it's big brother the XR31RTS OCR has landed. 28H and 32H drillings currently but 24H available shortly. While the Archetype has thicker spoke nipple bed the Kinlin rims will handle a 120kg rider.

    the main advantage of the Kinlin XR31 RTS OCR is simple it is deep therefore very stiff. It is 490g so practically the same weight as the archetype. It has offset drilling meaning spoke life is simply longer. It has every thing going for it really.

    Also the DT Swiss R460 DB and Kinlin XR22 RTS OCR rims are cheaper and do the job as well as the archetype. If you want a rim like the archetype then buy one of those. If you want the best disc brake offering you get what I think that is. The Pacenti SL25 and Velocity ailerons are good rims too but they just look pricey now and that is there only issue.

    On hubs, the Novatec D771/D772 are pretty good and so are Miche syntium DX and DT Swiss have the 350. Everyone fofgets about the Shimano CX-75 and I don't know why.

    For disc brake wheels it make sense to use triple butted spokes not much extra weight but spoke life is extended. Remember your rims can't wear out so wheel life is now determined by the life of the spokes assuming the hub is up to the job.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    I quite like the Kinlin XR22 RTS OCR catchy name. Offset disc brake version of the Kinlin XR22t. However it's big brother the XR31RTS OCR has landed. 28H and 32H drillings currently but 24H available shortly. While the Archetype has thicker spoke nipple bed the Kinlin rims will handle a 120kg rider.

    the main advantage of the Kinlin XR31 RTS OCR is simple it is deep therefore very stiff. It is 490g so practically the same weight as the archetype. It has offset drilling meaning spoke life is simply longer. It has every thing going for it really.

    Also the DT Swiss R460 DB and Kinlin XR22 RTS OCR rims are cheaper and do the job as well as the archetype. If you want a rim like the archetype then buy one of those. If you want the best disc brake offering you get what I think that is. The Pacenti SL25 and Velocity ailerons are good rims too but they just look pricey now and that is there only issue.

    On hubs, the Novatec D771/D772 are pretty good and so are Miche syntium DX and DT Swiss have the 350. Everyone fofgets about the Shimano CX-75 and I don't know why.

    For disc brake wheels it make sense to use triple butted spokes not much extra weight but spoke life is extended. Remember your rims can't wear out so wheel life is now determined by the life of the spokes assuming the hub is up to the job.

    Thanks Malcolm - more food for thought. Especially the Shimano Hubs - my entire cross bike uses Cx-75 grade groupset and it strikes me as pretty much bombproof
  • Thanks to Malcolm for his earlier reply re Merlin.

    I'm now torn between Miche Primato or Novatec A172 / F172 hubs. I understand they are similar in terms of sealed bearings and the Novatec are a bit lighter.

    Is it down to personal preference or is one better than the other pls?

    The rest of my build is likely to be Ambrosio Excellence rims and Sapim race spokes in black.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Thanks to Malcolm for his earlier reply re Merlin.

    I'm now torn between Miche Primato or Novatec A172 / F172 hubs. I understand they are similar in terms of sealed bearings and the Novatec are a bit lighter.

    Is it down to personal preference or is one better than the other pls?

    The rest of my build is likely to be Ambrosio Excellence rims and Sapim race spokes in black.

    Built many of both... the Miche are better. The bearings last forever and the freehub body is marginally less cheesy
    left the forum March 2023