Powerlinks don't go together or come apart when squeezed

MisterMuncher

It's probably less effort to get fitter and ride a double, or even a compact.

ai_1

Manc33 wrote:

....Setting up a triple is a nightmare....

No they're not.
I've ridden a triple for 4 years. Never had a problem setting up the FD. Then again I rarely mess with it since there's no need. I replaced the FD cable once, it took a good 15 mins to get the FD set up again. It needed another tweak after a week or two due to cable stetch. That was probably another 5 mins work. Hardly a nightmare.

Have you ever tried following the directions for setting these up or do solely base your actions on what some guy on the internet tells you?

chris_bass

Ai_1 wrote:

It needed another tweak after a week or two due to cable stretch.

At the risk of being pedantic (I even corrected your spelling mistake!) cables don't stretch, well not under the force of the rear mech and in a few weeks anyway, it is more to do with everything bedding in a bit.

ai_1

Chris Bass wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

It needed another tweak after a week or two due to cable stretch.

At the risk of being pedantic (I even corrected your spelling mistake!) cables don't stretch, well not under the force of the rear mech and in a few weeks anyway, it is more to do with everything bedding in a bit.

The steel will not appreciably stretch unless is exceeds yield strain which a gear cable won't. However the terminations may shift slightly and the wind of the cable will tighten allowing slight elongation of the cable. So, I beg to differ with your assertion that cables don't stretch. The cable as a whole does, the individual steel strands most likely do not.

Thanks for the spelling correction, how embarrassing.

chris_bass

I still don't think that would have a big enough effect on the overall length of the cable to affect shifting.

First.Aspect

Cables and housings aren't straight. The cables cause wear in the housings and so create a shorter route.

The untwisting of a cable described above would not, I don't think, occur. The individual strands are actually coiled when they aren't under any tension or torsion. Since they aren't taken beyond their elastic limit, they should return to the same shape each time braking force is released. I've certainly never take an old cable off and noticed any unwinding along its length.

I have, however, seen notches in the plastic lining of a cable outer.

6wheels

Chris- That's too obvious!

chris_bass

6wheels wrote:

Chris- That's too obvious!

I don't know what you mean?!

Manc33

The way people around here talk, anyone would think sitting at a computer keyboard changes your biological makeup. If its on the internet it must be lies. No discernment or anything. :roll:

Sheldon Brown is "some guy on the internet" so I'm not sure where you're meant to draw the line with ignoring something just because you saw it online in some form (whether it be written as text or presented as a video).

You only get endless arguing anyway like the above about cables stretching - cable stretches, cables don't stretch, ask a guitarist - all cables stretch, if it stretches anyway it can't affect anything, they don't stretch, they do etc.

All cables do stretch because anything involving a metal cable has to be tweaked whether it be a shifter, a guitar, a piano or a suspension bridge.

First.Aspect

Manc33 wrote:

The way people around here talk, anyone would think sitting at a computer keyboard changes your biological makeup. If its on the internet it must be lies. No discernment or anything. :roll:

Sheldon Brown is "some guy on the internet" so I'm not sure where you're meant to draw the line with ignoring something just because you saw it online in some form (whether it be written as text or presented as a video).

You only get endless arguing anyway like the above about cables stretching - cable stretches, cables don't stretch, ask a guitarist - all cables stretch, if it stretches anyway it can't affect anything, they don't stretch, they do etc.

All cables do stretch because anything involving a metal cable has to be tweaked whether it be a shifter, a guitar, a piano or a suspension bridge.

I'm impressed by your logical reasoning skills. Guitar strings have to be tuned, gears have to be adjusted, therefore, all cables MUST STRETCH.

Why, as we speak, engineers are atop the Forth road bridge tightening all of the cables again. One year the road dangled in the water.......Please show me any example, anywhere, of cables on a suspension bridge stretching and having to be re-tensioned. The individual cables break, but that's not really the same as stretching, is it? How often does one hear, "Oh, I fell off my bike and stretched my collar bone" for example> Do you remember that year Lance Armstrong rode up the Alpe with a stretched chainstay after he crashed? No, neither do I.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, could it be that guitars need re-tuning becuause the tuning knobs around which the cables are wound come loose over time? Just possibly?

Manc33 you have this absolutely fantastic blend of knowledge, intelligence and confidence. Sadly, not in the proportions you believe.

kayakerchris

being truly pedantic all cables do stretch. however the degree of stretch is such that it is very tiny in the forth road bridge.

Elasticity in steel is not perfect and there is always a bit of hysteresis in the curve. This may be of the order of microns or less but is still there.

chris_bass

I wasn't suggesting that it would be impossible to stretch a gear cable, but if you think about the force the spring in the rear mech applies to the cable, this alone is not enough to make it stretch. The strength of the cable is more than enough to hold the mech in place without stretching.

The ferrels move more snugly around the outer cable house and into the lugs on the frame, this makes the distance the cable needs to travel shorter and so the cable will need to be tightened to compensate.

I am by no means saying that in certain circumstances that gears cables could be stretched just not under normal use.

First.Aspect

kayakerchris wrote:

being truly pedantic all cables do stretch. however the degree of stretch is such that it is very tiny in the forth road bridge.

Elasticity in steel is not perfect and there is always a bit of hysteresis in the curve. This may be of the order of microns or less but is still there.

You are talking about "creep", at least in relation to metals. Its a microscopic effect within crystal domains. I'd have to ponder whether or how that would manifest itself macroscopically. Actual change in cable length? Or a reduction in the elasticity?

Who knows. Not Manc33, that's for sure. And no need to re-tune the Forth bridge as a consequence, or indeed engage in week long fettling of his rear mech.

Manc33

First Aspect wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, could it be that guitars need re-tuning becuause the tuning knobs around which the cables are wound come loose over time? Just possibly?

You mean the machine heads?

No, they are made to not come loose.

You put new strings on, tune it, play it for 30 mins, tune it again, leave the guitar for 3 days, tune it again, now its in tune. To say its the same thing with shifters isn't exactly a radical suggestion. :P

Plus anyway I do unwind my rear mech cable from time to time over the months due to a slightly sloppy upshift, so something is stretching and looking at everything involved... its probably the cable.

MisterMuncher

Really? My 72 Tele, with vintage kluson tuners doesn't hold tune for more than a few hours, but my more modern ones with newer locking tuners do. Much like chains and cables, "Stretch" is a simple approximation of what happens, but didn't always describe the actual occurrence.

First.Aspect

Manc33 wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, could it be that guitars need re-tuning becuause the tuning knobs around which the cables are wound come loose over time? Just possibly?

You mean the machine heads?

No, they are made to not come loose.

You put new strings on, tune it, play it for 30 mins, tune it again, leave the guitar for 3 days, tune it again, now its in tune. To say its the same thing with shifters isn't exactly a radical suggestion. :P

Plus anyway I do unwind my rear mech cable from time to time over the months due to a slightly sloppy upshift, so something is stretching and looking at everything involved... its probably the cable.

Hang on, I'll just give myself a concussion....... nope, still can't make any sense of this. Never mind. In the meantime:-

Ouija

MisterMuncher wrote:

Really? My 72 Tele, with vintage kluson tuners doesn't hold tune for more than a few hours, but my more modern ones with newer locking tuners do. Much like chains and cables, "Stretch" is a simple approximation of what happens, but didn't always describe the actual occurrence.

Makes no difference if you have older style or newer. Even double locking guitars where the string length can't be altered between the two locking points suffer from strings stretching after initially tuning up. Hence the reason most guitarists tune the guitar, hook their fingers under the string and yank it away from the fretboard like an archer with a bow, and then retune the now flat string and repeat until all the stretch has been removed from the string. With a double locking system this will keep the string in tune indefinately (years, in some cases). But if you have to slacken the strings off for maintenance reasons you have to repeat the stretching, tuning, stretching, tuning cycle until the strings can't stretch any more. And guitar/bass strings can be frickin enormous compared to gear cables.

However, bear in mind that it only takes small differences in length to completely knock a guitar out of tune (0.5/1.0mm). A gear cable requires considerably more stretch before you'd notice any difference in gear shifts. Especially if you've got it perfectly dialed in to the middle of it's range and it's not on the edge of an up shift or down shift.

team47b

Manc33 wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, could it be that guitars need re-tuning becuause the tuning knobs around which the cables are wound come loose over time? Just possibly?

You mean the machine heads?

No, they are made to not come loose.

You put new strings on, tune it, play it for 30 mins, tune it again, leave the guitar for 3 days, tune it again, now its in tune. To say its the same thing with shifters isn't exactly a radical suggestion. :P

Plus anyway I do unwind my rear mech cable from time to time over the months due to a slightly sloppy upshift, so something is stretching and looking at everything involved... its probably the cable.

Not sure that this is in keeping with the point of this thread but the truth is that guitar strings e and b do not stretch g, d, a, e are wound strings and can, in theory the outer can un-wind, increase in Length, but this is minimal and nowhere near a semi tone but the reason for re-tuning a guitar after 30 mins is that the string wound round the peg compresses and tightens due to increased tension of playing. They also slacken over time and need to be tightened around the pegs ie by tuning again. It has nothing to do with stretching.

My bike cables: it says pre-stretched on the packet, make of that what you will.

chris_bass

Mental note, extreme cases of trying to be pedantic can lead to discussions about guitars.

team47b

Chris Bass wrote:

Mental note, extreme cases of trying to be pedantic can lead to discussions about guitars.

Mental note, desires for philosophical rhetoric maybe a little misplaced here methinks :roll:

Ouija

team47b wrote:

Not sure that this is in keeping with the point of this thread but the truth is that guitar strings e and b do not stretch g, d, a, e are wound strings and can, in theory the outer can un-wind, increase in Length, but this is minimal and nowhere near a semi tone but the reason for re-tuning a guitar after 30 mins is that the string wound round the peg compresses and tightens due to increased tension of playing. They also slacken over time and need to be tightened around the pegs ie by tuning again. It has nothing to do with stretching.

Just No. This doesn't account for string stretch on double locking systems where tuners are removed from the equation entirely....

ai_1

Has anyone perhaps considered the effect of ambient conditions on guitar strings?
I'm pretty sure one of the primary reasons stringed musical instruments need retuning is changes in temperature and perhaps humidity. Differences in the expansion of different materials with temperature will effect the tension on the strings. Thus changing the frequency produced. I would imagine humidity will also have some effect on wooden bodied instruments like acoustic guitars, violins etc. Bike cables are hardly as critical as musical instruments.

Manc33

The two last thin strings on guitars also stretch, in fact the pitch of those two strings probably changes more than any others with them being tighter and thinner. In fact the thinnest string actually stretches as you're tuning it so it starts stretching straight off. The string that goes out of tune the least is the thickest (E) string but even with its thickness and lower tension, it too stretches over time.

Ouija

Ai_1 wrote:

Has anyone perhaps considered the effect of ambient conditions on guitar strings?
I'm pretty sure one of the primary reasons stringed musical instruments need retuning is changes in temperature and perhaps humidity. Differences in the expansion of different materials with temperature will effect the tension on the strings. Thus changing the frequency produced. I would imagine humidity will also have some effect on wooden bodied instruments like acoustic guitars, violins etc. Bike cables are hardly as critical as musical instruments.

Yep. These do affect tuning over time (i own over 31 guitars and have owned hundreds). But what i'm referring to is INSTANT string stretch, even on a double locking guitar where the string is clamped at the nut and the bridge after tuning and physically can't move (tuners, etc are removed from the equation). Bending new strings after tuning up and locking everything down causes a instant detune (by several notes). You can mark the strings at the nut and bridge with a felt tip pen to make sure the strings aren't sliding through the clamps, but in most cases this isn't what causes it. It's simple stretch (the string gets longer between the two marked points).

Most guitarists accept this and yank on the strings while tuning the guitar until the string can't stretch any more (tune, yank, tune, yank, tune, yank etc). At which point, once tuned up to pitch, they'll stay at that pitch. It's at this point you clamp everything down on a double locking system and the guitar stays in tune for months or years. On traditional, non-locking, systems playing the guitar after doing all of this can still knock it out of tune after just a few minutes but this isn't down to string stretch but other factors (strings binding in the nut, tuners unwinding, strings shifting on the tuner capstans, saddles moving on the bridge baseplate of non-locking systems, tremolo bridges not returning to their zero point after use and heat etc).

We had a interesting discussion on this a few years back on the Ibanez forum. A guy actually took precision readings of his strings on and off the guitar and published the difference in string gauge (diameter) of the strings out of the box and under tension (they get thinner). More interesting was the fact they actually get fatter again once you remove tension. Because of this, you have to go through the whole tune, yank, tune, yank, tune, yank process again when refitting them back on the guitar until all the stretch is gone (though you don't have to do it to the same degree as when they were new).

nweststeyn

I go away from this fantastic thread for a few days and THIS happens? I feel, as a matter of professional pride, I should wade in.

The main reason for strings 'stretching' is, as mentioned above, the windings around the machinehead slipping/settling. The most common mistake I see is players winding their string a hundred times round the peg, leaving lots of room for movement. On most machineheads, one wind over and then 1.5 or 2 winds under the string end is plenty to hold it firm (personal preference plays a part here, every tech does it differently).

I have done what Ouija said and measured, with precision calipers, the thickness of strings when under tension and I can confirm that a .009 of an inch high e string stretches and becomes a 0.0085. More significantly, a 0.042 became 0.040. Might not sound like a lot but it's definitely a stretch related change.

Now we're talking open strings of course. A huge majority of the work I do on guitars when the player claims 'it wont stay in tune' is recutting nut slots to reduce problems when fretting, and subtly trying to suggest to players that it's their ham fisted technique that is causing the guitar to sound bad.

Oh, one final thing - locking systems aren't as foolproof as may be suggested once the pivot blades on the floyd rose bridge start to wear.

Smokin Joe

Anybody else started to lose the will to live while reading this thread?

Ouija

nweststeyn wrote:

Oh, one final thing - locking systems aren't as foolproof as may be suggested once the pivot blades on the floyd rose bridge start to wear.

Not all double locking systems are tremolo based though. Ibanez do ones that look like Floyd trems but are actually fixed bridge and some Floyd owners block the trem to turn them into fixed bridges. These don't lose tune for years (minor increase or decrease by a few cents due to seasonal weather conditions). Have a few like that and haven't had to tune them in donkey's years. As long as you get all the stretch out of the strings they are fire and forget.

DKay

Smokin Joe wrote:

Anybody else started to lose the will to live while reading this thread?

nweststeyn

Ouija wrote:

nweststeyn wrote:

Oh, one final thing - locking systems aren't as foolproof as may be suggested once the pivot blades on the floyd rose bridge start to wear.

Not all double locking systems are tremolo based though. Ibanez do ones that look like Floyd trems but are actually fixed bridge and some Floyd owners block the trem to turn them into fixed bridges. These don't lose tune for years (minor increase or decrease by a few cents due to seasonal weather conditions). Have a few like that and haven't had to tune them in donkey's years. As long as you get all the stretch out of the strings they are fire and forget.

I have been trying to petition my local councillors for a city-wide ban on floyd rose bridges for years with no luck. I was hoping for it to have turned into a nationwide ban by now

Manc33

Squeezes don't come together or link apart when power gone, wait wut.

Guys, I have taken the missing link (or whatever they are called this month) out of my chain.

I planned on using it to see if the metal started going across into the exit hole, but why do that when I know that happens. Even the chain manufacturers own documentation hints at it. Best to just not use one then I think, it is barely any more effort doing it the old way - that has worked for more than 100 years. :roll: