Reasonably priced Italian steel stallions

FransJacques

The "senza congiunzioni" part could mean they're TIG welded or they use lugs but that's the weight of just the bare tubes prior to being built. Dunno. Doubt they're lugged, what's the point?

I'll be able to see what the Italian are riding, I just signed up for the Giro Di Sardegna: http://www.girosardegna.com/ Lots of carbon and clinking pockets.

gweeds

Perhaps not Ugo but If you look at a market monolithically, simple maths dictates that the average will be most heavily influenced by the majority. And, income distributions being what they are, the majority of customers in any market will have less money, and likely be inclined to prioritize price. Ergo, monolithic market analysis necessarily concludes that customers prioritize price.

Markets, though, are not monolithic. They are wildly disparate, able to be endlessly segmented not just by income, but by a whole host of demographic and psychographic factors. In every market there is a segment of people who have the means to buy nice things, and there is a segment that values a superior experience. These segments quite often overlap.....

I think that's what we see here.

Moonbiker

Why not any decent & cheap chinese steel frames?



Im sure they must have the skills, there to make them.

I suppose alot of the cheaper renolyds 520 ones are made there.

ugo.santalucia

Moonbiker wrote:

Why not any decent & cheap chinese steel frames?



Im sure they must have the skills, there to make them.

I suppose alot of the cheaper renolyds 520 ones are made there.

Sure, my Genesis is Taiwanese, but they don't do bespoke... I think there are Chinese makes that do bespoke, but you always have the feeling communication and getting exactly what you want might be an issue

Dizeee

I have only reached page 2 but maybe this is the correct thread to ask my question. What do the Italians think of De Rosa?

I have had mine now for a couple of years and love it, it is a sublime ride and what it allows me to achieve on the road makes me believe it speaks for itself in terms of quality. I have no intention of changing and am actually in the process of spending a vast amount this year on upgrades, namely a very good set of wheels.

That said, the mere fact I own a De Rosa seems to be more of a controversy than a triumph. Some of you will know me from another bike forum where my bike is continually slated for alledgedly being a Chinese generic open mould used by Ribble (despite me not even owning the 838 which is the model affected by this). When that's not being quoted, I get comments about overpricing, mass manafacture, cheap Taiwanese junk and so on and so forth. None of my riding buddies seem to take this approach with me so it may be restricted to that particular forum which is renowned for being particularly, what's the word - unforgiving.

It doesn't really matter to me either way but I am intrigued at the general concensus especially from the home land

fleshtuxedo

It's interesting the point being made that steel frames are overpriced. I'd agree, but I don't think anyone's going to fill that gap because then you just end up competing against CF and alu frames in the c.£500 bracket. In that sector, people are more focused on the weight and perceived performance and let's face it, CF wins against those criteria.

The top end niche steel frames have is a result of the customers at that level being more interested in prestige and personal service. Lose that, and why would anyone buy steel?

ugo.santalucia

FleshTuxedo wrote:

It's interesting the point being made that steel frames are overpriced. I'd agree, but I don't think anyone's going to fill that gap because then you just end up competing against CF and alu frames in the c.£500 bracket. In that sector, people are more focused on the weight and perceived performance and let's face it, CF wins against those criteria.

The top end niche steel frames have is a result of the customers at that level being more interested in prestige and personal service. Lose that, and why would anyone buy steel?

I don't think so. If I could buy a made to measure frame in good steel for 700 quid having to wait 6 weeks rather than 6 months, I'd have no hesitations... there is a market for reasonably priced bespoke... the success of hand built wheels is there to prove it... if nobody wants to fill the gap it's a different story.

samsbike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

FleshTuxedo wrote:

It's interesting the point being made that steel frames are overpriced. I'd agree, but I don't think anyone's going to fill that gap because then you just end up competing against CF and alu frames in the c.£500 bracket. In that sector, people are more focused on the weight and perceived performance and let's face it, CF wins against those criteria.

The top end niche steel frames have is a result of the customers at that level being more interested in prestige and personal service. Lose that, and why would anyone buy steel?

I don't think so. If I could buy a made to measure frame in good steel for 700 quid having to wait 6 weeks rather than 6 months, I'd have no hesitations... there is a market for reasonably priced bespoke... the success of hand built wheels is there to prove it... if nobody wants to fill the gap it's a different story.

Steve Goff just might be your man!

ugo.santalucia

samsbike wrote:

Steve Goff just might be your man!

As long as for 700 quid he doesn't do only lugged frames... I want a brazed or welded frame in something decent... no off-the peg, needs to be bespoke.

As a matter of fact I don't need a frame right now, but if I did...

gweeds

Bespoke for £700 retail?

You're saying that's 2 days work from start to finish, including paint?

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Bespoke for £700 retail?

You're saying that's 2 days work from start to finish, including paint?

In Italy you can get it for 700 Euro... it's not third world...
I think the running costs and overheads for an established small artisan who works in a shed in the middle of nowhere are pretty low

gweeds

I'm just working the numbers through.

So let's say £700 for two days (which for custom, with paint, sounds optimistic). Let's assume he's under the c£80k VAT threshold to be generous. He'll need to lose 20% of that straight away (min) for tax, so he's at £560 now. Tubing - say £100 per bike for something like Life? So he's at £460. Workshops costs, needs to be secure so he's not getting his welding kit and jig nicked. Say £200 a month? So £25 per frame? He's at £435. Paint - assuming he's not got in-house facilities has to be £100 per frame. So £335. I'm not even going to put in capitalised costs for a jib, welding kit and everything else a frame-builder will need. But that has to be factored in somewhere. A good jig isn't cheap. Accounting costs are going to come in somewhere, as is insurance.

So £335 for 2 days work. £167.50 per day. £21 an hour, tops. So he's looking at a salary of c£40k working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week putting out one-off custom frames. I think it's closer to 3 days for a custom frame with paint myself. That's £111 a day, or £13.80 an hour, or £28k a year. I haven't included time dealing with suppliers, orders coming in, phone calls/emails/customer visits/marketing.

I can see why people aren't queuing up to fill that niche.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

So £335 for 2 days work. £167.50 per day. £21 an hour, tops. So he's looking at a salary of c£40k working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week putting out one-off custom frames. I think it's closer to 3 days for a custom frame with paint myself. That's £111 a day, or £13.80 an hour, or £28k a year. I haven't included time dealing with suppliers, orders coming in, phone calls/emails/customer visits/marketing.

I can see why people aren't queuing up to fill that niche.

I am pretty sure there would be people queueing up to get that kind of money to do what they like to do... I probably would.
I can see why someone who wants to live in the South East would not see it as viable... but there are parts of the country where for 120K you can buy a 3 beds semidetached and the urge to earn big money is simply not there.

Anyway, it seems to be possible elsewhere, where taxes are higher, so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible over here where business taxation is lower...

Moreover... if you build 5 frames over 2 weeks instead of one and charge 3,500 pounds total instead of 2,000 as they do... maybe you end up making more... just a thought...

gweeds

So why aren't they?

It goes back to my earlier suggestion that people going into this aren't doing so for volume. They're going into it to charge enough to have the time to do the best work they can.

You've picked Italy - not a country renowned for it's aggressive tax gathering

I'd love a frame-builder to come on and say how long they think it'd take to offer a fully bespoke painted frame.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

I'd love a frame-builder to come on and say how long they think it'd take to offer a fully bespoke painted frame.

But you don't need that. Firstly painting is outsourced by many. You wouldn't believe how cheaply they get the frames sprayed. Plus I never said I want fancy painwork... a plain blue frame works fine thank you... Gios were blue, nothing worng with that. There is evidence of when in the 1980s a frame a day was perfectly possible. Now, I believe lugged construction was marginally quicker, but even so... anyone who has never held a gas torch cam make a frame in a 5 days group course... pretty sure as 1 to 1 tutorial it would take a lot less... how long will it take a skilled builder to do it? No arabesques, no fancy lugs, just a plain simple set of 8 tubes to be mitred and joined... we want to believe it's artistry but it is precision plumbing

gweeds

And how many plumbers do you know charging £120 or so day

My point here is that as soon as you start making them for other people you're running your own business, with all of the costs associated with that. There's no getting around that. And I'm not sure why 99% of people would want custom when all they want is a blue 531 frame. Nature abhores a vacuum, so I'm pretty sure people have already down and worked the numbers. My guess is 'why would I want the admin and grief of running a business for £28k a year churning out low cost bespoke'. It's a race to the bottom.

MisterMuncher

Then again, the bike market is one where premium products can be priced to the hilt because the market will bear it. Why charge 700 of you could, indeed will get twice that.

Even if you look at group sets. There is no way on earth DuraAce costs twice as much as Ultegra to produce, even allowing for r&d. Retailers routinely offer Ultegra at as near half rrp as to make no difference. It doesn't happen with DA because people will pay.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

And I'm not sure why 99% of people would want custom when all they want is a blue 531 frame.

Because you can't bloody buy a steel frame of your size which is blue, for instance. You think you can buy whatever you want, but when I was looking for a CX frame for discs in decent steel, it all came down to 2-3 available on the market... one was black and one was orange, none of them was made to measure, none of them was anything special

gweeds

Go on a course and build one yourself?

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Go on a course and build one yourself?

I am on the list. Don't think it's that easy... there is a waiting list that stretches about 2 years... that's because it's cheaper and more interesting to do it that way. Course + frame built is < 1,000 pounds. If you could buy bespoke for that money, the list would be shorter

gweeds

Are they all lugged courses?

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Are they all lugged courses?

No, you can do fillet brazed with Dave Yates... only frame, no forks, but who wants steel forks anyway...

gweeds

Could be a good conversation to have with him then.

Is there a worthwhile business in offering bespoke, low-cost tubing frames, in 3 or 4 plain colours, for £700 all in

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

Could be a good conversation to have with him then.

Is there a worthwhile business in offering bespoke, low-cost tubing frames, in 3 or 4 plain colours, for £700 all in

Last year I think the guys at Shand were doing an 853 frame for 853 pounds... which annoyingly was just after I purchased my Fugio. If you look now, I think the same is 1400... I think the catch back then was limited options... but I don't give a toss about choosing the curvature of the bridge or whether the seat tube collar should sit 2 cm or 1 cm higher... I'm pretty happy with someone taking my in seam and making a frame out of it, like in the old days. A couple of basic pointers about what I need/want and he's off brazing. I look like Michelangelo's David, it's pretty easy to make a frame for me.

There is clearly a market for fastidious individuals who want to have control over the last detail and there is also a market for people who want a 55 rather than having to choose between a small and a medium. I can assure you the latter market does indeed exist and it's currently in the hands of Condor, Ritchey, Genesis etc...

djhermer

So this thread has gone from 'What the Italians rave about" to "What one particular Italian raves about".

ugo.santalucia

djhermer wrote:

So this thread has gone from 'What the Italians rave about" to "What one particular Italian raves about".

Not true... the Italian rave about Vetta for cheap bespoke steel frames, among others

fleshtuxedo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

FleshTuxedo wrote:

It's interesting the point being made that steel frames are overpriced. I'd agree, but I don't think anyone's going to fill that gap because then you just end up competing against CF and alu frames in the c.£500 bracket. In that sector, people are more focused on the weight and perceived performance and let's face it, CF wins against those criteria.

The top end niche steel frames have is a result of the customers at that level being more interested in prestige and personal service. Lose that, and why would anyone buy steel?

I don't think so. If I could buy a made to measure frame in good steel for 700 quid having to wait 6 weeks rather than 6 months, I'd have no hesitations... there is a market for reasonably priced bespoke... the success of hand built wheels is there to prove it... if nobody wants to fill the gap it's a different story.

The success of hand built wheels? Get me my time machine! I'm guessing about 98% of people ride factory and there's a small niche for artisan hand built wheels. I'll give you it's a bigger niche than expensive handbuilt steel frames, but it's still a very small slice of the pie.

apreading

I think more than 2% of people who buy aftermarket wheels (as opposed to those who just ride the ones that came with their bike and probably dont ride enough to need/want to replace them) will look at hand built.

There is a sizeable community of wheel builders serving this but there are some significant differences:

People need new wheels or wheel repairs far more often than new frames or frame repairs.
Hand built wheels are applicable to all who ride - hand built frames only generally for those who want steel or titanium
Hand building wheels is generally 'just' component assembly, not real manufacture

Lots of wheel builders do it as a hobby rather than a business - there isnt much money in it unless you do alot of volume - lots do it at home in their spare time almost because the money is simply subsidizing the hobby rather than providing income.

There just isnt that volume likely for frames and they need more training/equipment/premises etc

Also, dont forget that someone doing it as a business needs insurance and to deal with warranty issues/hassle

lostboysaint

FleshTuxedo wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

FleshTuxedo wrote:

It's interesting the point being made that steel frames are overpriced. I'd agree, but I don't think anyone's going to fill that gap because then you just end up competing against CF and alu frames in the c.£500 bracket. In that sector, people are more focused on the weight and perceived performance and let's face it, CF wins against those criteria.

The top end niche steel frames have is a result of the customers at that level being more interested in prestige and personal service. Lose that, and why would anyone buy steel?

I don't think so. If I could buy a made to measure frame in good steel for 700 quid having to wait 6 weeks rather than 6 months, I'd have no hesitations... there is a market for reasonably priced bespoke... the success of hand built wheels is there to prove it... if nobody wants to fill the gap it's a different story.

The success of hand built wheels? Get me my time machine! I'm guessing about 98% of people ride factory and there's a small niche for artisan hand built wheels. I'll give you it's a bigger niche than expensive handbuilt steel frames, but it's still a very small slice of the pie.

And yet there's a significant waiting list for any decent hand built wheels. That suggests that the 2% is either:

a. slightly bigger than you think it is
b. a little more discerning about the state of what the production market offers.

gweeds

c. There aren't enough people building handbuilt wheels?