Charlie Hebdo

bianchimoon

Ballysmate wrote:

Well Finchy, I must admit to not having studied the Koran, although I have more knowledge of the Bible,albeit from childhood. Quite an admission I suppose for someone who has been more anti religion than most.

I know there will be people on here that are religious and I wonder if they could shed light on something that baffles me.
If I or anyone else stood up and proclaimed that God had spoken to me, I would no doubt be branded a nutter. Or if I wrote a book saying I'd met someone who God had spoken to, I would be ridiculed. Why then are people so ready to believe the Bible or Koran?
Faith? But faith in what? They are surely putting their faith in the people who wrote such works, faith in the fact that they are not charlatans. The Book of Mormon for instance has been shown to be based on work fabricated by Joseph Smith but it still attracts followers. Why is that?

I'd say it's it's a psychological issue, with the fear of the unknown being the major factor, whilst a growing number can accept that there doesn't have to be something after death just as there wasn't anything there before birth, others need to a support a belief that 'guarantees' them an afterlife, The only religions/beliefs that do not have or do not address an 'afterlife' are ' Confucianism, Deism, Falun Gong, Satanism or atheism.

RDW

bianchimoon wrote:

The only religions/beliefs that do not have or do not address an 'afterlife' are ' Confucianism, Deism, Falun Gong, Satanism or atheism.

Why not Satanists? Did the whole eternal torment thing test poorly with the focus groups?

bianchimoon

RDW wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

The only religions/beliefs that do not have or do not address an 'afterlife' are ' Confucianism, Deism, Falun Gong, Satanism or atheism.

Why not Satanists? Did the whole eternal torment thing test poorly with the focus groups?

Hmm, not sure I was off that day :evil:

LaVeyan Satanists don't believe in an afterlife, apparently because don't believe in any supernatural beings God or Satan. Theistic satanists on the other hand apparently have a range of ideas about the 'afterlife'

ballysmate

On the subject of the afterlife, the Catholics seem to have given Limbo a lot of thought over the years. It appears that they now hope kids can get past Limbo without being baptised.
To be fair to Islam, it appears that they have always accepted kids into heaven.
On the other hand, it appears that Islam claims all dead kids as Muslims, regardless of upbringing.

The Wiki link is here, but it looks bollox to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

thegreatdivide

Has anyone watched Bitter Lake on the iPlayer yet? For the ill informed (vtech) it's well worth watching. Curtis at his best.

RDW

bianchimoon wrote:

LaVeyan Satanists don't believe in an afterlife, apparently because don't believe in any supernatural beings God or Satan.

So if you sign up to this you're basically just an atheist with a Darkthrone album? It's not exactly Rosemary's Baby is it?

RDW

thegreatdivide wrote:

Has anyone watched Bitter Lake on the iPlayer yet? For the ill informed (vtech) it's well worth watching. Curtis at his best.

I think I've already seen this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bX3F7uTrg

VTech

thegreatdivide wrote:

Has anyone watched Bitter Lake on the iPlayer yet? For the ill informed (vtech) it's well worth watching. Curtis at his best.

For someone like myself who is "ill informed" I am still awaiting anyone to prove what I have said to be wrong. Of course I've had a little bit of waffle flung but nothing that amounts to a hill of beans yet.

thegreatdivide

RDW wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Has anyone watched Bitter Lake on the iPlayer yet? For the ill informed (vtech) it's well worth watching. Curtis at his best.

I think I've already seen this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bX3F7uTrg

If you’ve not seen The Power of Nightmares it’s also well worth a watch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

The two go well together.

Bitter Lake won’t be shown on terrestrial TV. It was produced for the BBC’s online service.

thegreatdivide

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Has anyone watched Bitter Lake on the iPlayer yet? For the ill informed (vtech) it's well worth watching. Curtis at his best.

For someone like myself who is "ill informed" I am still awaiting anyone to prove what I have said to be wrong. Of course I've had a little bit of waffle flung but nothing that amounts to a hill of beans yet.

Rather than convincing yourself that you are the be all and end all of this forum, take a couple of hours out of your jet set lifestyle and educate yourself vtech. Seriously. This is a documentary made by a man that actually knows things - and wins awards for it. You might learn something.

VTech

thegreatdivide wrote:

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Has anyone watched Bitter Lake on the iPlayer yet? For the ill informed (vtech) it's well worth watching. Curtis at his best.

For someone like myself who is "ill informed" I am still awaiting anyone to prove what I have said to be wrong. Of course I've had a little bit of waffle flung but nothing that amounts to a hill of beans yet.

Rather than convincing yourself that you are the be all and end all of this forum, take a couple of hours out of your jet set lifestyle and educate yourself vtech. Seriously. This is a documentary made by a man that actually knows things - and wins awards for it. You might learn something.

I do not for one second think I am the be all and end all, likewise I do not think I know everything. The simple fact is, I'm open minded, that makes me far more valuable than someone closed minded.

I don't need documentaries to tell me that people of faith are good or bad, I judge for myself. I have never listened to people who tell me "stay away from him/her" or "don't trust him/her" because I am able to make my own mind up.

I have met plenty of muslims and none of them have chopped my head off.
Likewise, I am yet to find one that hasn't honoured himself by doing exactly as he said he would do.

Thats all I need to know about these people and as I have said before and will say to the day I die, bad people do bad things. It really is that simple.

slowmart

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

, bad people do bad things. It really is that simple.

It's not that simplistic nor as black and white in real life

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... asant.html


Prison is full of decent people who have made some bad choices…..

VTech

Slowmart wrote:

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

VTech wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

, bad people do bad things. It really is that simple.

It's not that simplistic nor as black and white in real life

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... asant.html


Prison is full of decent people who have made some bad choices…..

SO someone in prison for making a mistake, lets say they didn't pay a fine, or they protected their home and got charged with GBH for hitting the burglar is to be judged on the same path as someone who hacks the head off an innocent journalist or someone who gets a kid to wear a bomb and asks them to walk over the road knowing they are going to detonate that bomb killing innocent people and the little girl ?

I think your clutching at straws here.

slowmart

I think you've misinterpreted my point.


Good people make stupid decisions with adverse outcomes. It's not just about the narrow demographic you allude to but the tipping point in a persons life which if left unchecked will define the rest of their existence.


Define a bad person and there will be some redeeming feature in their lives and taken in their totality which way do the scales go?

ballysmate

Deja vu

I have met plenty of muslims and none of them have chopped my head off.
Likewise, I am yet to find one that hasn't honoured himself by doing exactly as he said he would do.

Thats all I need to know about these people and as I have said before and will say to the day I die, bad people do bad things. It really is that simple.

No one has suggested that all Muslims are violent and lack honour. I thought you had agreed yesterday that people can be indoctrinated with pernicious beliefs to commit evil acts?
Here is our exchange.

Ballysmate wrote:
I disagree.
Religion and any institution that demands unthinking belief or support have been shown to be detrimental to mankind's development.
Millions killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and going back further, The Norse, Greek and Egptian gods. Thousands killed in S America on altars. Religion very much is the problem.

VTech wrote
Amazing that after the tennis match of back and forth you have now agreed totally with me.
In the name of !

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

I guess excuses cover a broad spectrum. USA used it against Sadam Hussain when oil was needed. Funny now that shale is working a treat that war isn't needed and they seem to want to pull away and at the same time France becomes number 1 enemy of IS.

Anyway, me and you are not a problem. I still think that Charlie Hebdu made a terrible mistake in the issuing of the magazine insult. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Ballysmate wrote
Yes of course bad people commit bad acts. No argument there. Good people get indoctrinated in bizarre ideas and also commit bad acts. Take away the indoctrination. They don't use religion as an excuse, they believe that what they are doing is right.
Someone who uses an excuse knows that their actions are wrong. People with a belief, believe their actions are right.

VTech wrote
I can accept that viewpoint but that brings the question, do you think people of IS do genuinely believe they are laying down the rule of God ?
In an ideal world I would like to think not but of that I guess I cant be sure.

You see that people indoctrinated in a religious or cult belief are capable of bad deeds. Islam is no different. They are acting on a belief. If you have reverted back to your "Bad men commit bad acts" stance, does that mean that religion turns good men into bad men?

bianchimoon

I'll try to make it simple when does the good man become bad man
A) is he born bad?
Is he brought up bad?
C) is there a defining causation?..
if we can get the answer right we'll move onto the next stage

bianchimoon

VTech wrote:

Russp wrote:

VTech wrote:

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

No, its the illness that kills the people.
When you are faced with terminal illness (and I've been around this for the past 3 years with my mother and now with my best friend having an incurable brain tumour) I honestly think faith can help. Maybe in your chosen god and maybe in alternative thinking or therapy.

and in the case of jehova's witnesses?, many documented cases of children dying through lack of medical intervention due to their parents adhering to religious beliefs?

VTech

bianchimoon wrote:

VTech wrote:

Russp wrote:

VTech wrote:

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

No, its the illness that kills the people.
When you are faced with terminal illness (and I've been around this for the past 3 years with my mother and now with my best friend having an incurable brain tumour) I honestly think faith can help. Maybe in your chosen god and maybe in alternative thinking or therapy.

and in the case of jehova's witnesses?, many documented cases of children dying through lack of medical intervention due to their parents adhering to religious beliefs?

I was brought up in Birmingham, just by Longbridge and my best mate at school was kicked in the nether regions, he needed a blood transfusion and his parents would not allow it due to being Jehovas Witnesses, He died a few days later and we didn't understand as kids. I would say these people were probably good people who did a very bad thing. I was too young to understand their mentality but they moved on as locals didn't accept it and made their life a misery.

IMO these people were bad (or at the least did a very bad thing) because I think life should come before religion.
I am not saying I know the answers, far from it. I just work along the lines of "what do I think is right" as I am sure most of you realise.

pblakeney

VTech wrote:

I was brought up in Birmingham, just by Longbridge and my best mate at school was kicked in the nether regions, he needed a blood transfusion and his parents would not allow it due to being Jehovas Witnesses, He died a few days later and we didn't understand as kids. I would say these people were probably good people who did a very bad thing. I was too young to understand their mentality but they moved on as locals didn't accept it and made their life a misery.

IMO these people were bad (or at the least did a very bad thing) because I think life should come before religion.
I am not saying I know the answers, far from it. I just work along the lines of "what do I think is right" as I am sure most of you realise.

So are you now saying that religion can make good people into bad people due to the faith's principles?

Or, was it the neighbours who turned into bad people due to the actions of others?

VTech

PBlakeney wrote:

VTech wrote:

I was brought up in Birmingham, just by Longbridge and my best mate at school was kicked in the nether regions, he needed a blood transfusion and his parents would not allow it due to being Jehovas Witnesses, He died a few days later and we didn't understand as kids. I would say these people were probably good people who did a very bad thing. I was too young to understand their mentality but they moved on as locals didn't accept it and made their life a misery.

IMO these people were bad (or at the least did a very bad thing) because I think life should come before religion.
I am not saying I know the answers, far from it. I just work along the lines of "what do I think is right" as I am sure most of you realise.

So are you now saying that religion can make good people into bad people due to the faith's principles?

Or, was it the neighbours who turned into bad people due to the actions of others?

Im being open and honest, also not twisting things. Because this was actually a friend I suggest you not try and mock it.

That being said, I have to agree that their belief in their chosen religion made them do a bad thing. I believe now as an adult that they did a very bad thing and allowed the teachings of people who were bad to rain that onto them and in turn they did a bad thing.
I still suggest that this was simply a case of bad people doing bad things. It doesn't really matter how they get to this point, wether its brain washing or whatever, but at the point of doing a bad thing you must be acting in a bad way and unless you are mentally ill or have had a breakdown and no longer in total control of your mind you would be deemed as bad.

bianchimoon

VTech wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

VTech wrote:

Russp wrote:

VTech wrote:

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

No, its the illness that kills the people.
When you are faced with terminal illness (and I've been around this for the past 3 years with my mother and now with my best friend having an incurable brain tumour) I honestly think faith can help. Maybe in your chosen god and maybe in alternative thinking or therapy.

and in the case of jehova's witnesses?, many documented cases of children dying through lack of medical intervention due to their parents adhering to religious beliefs?

I was brought up in Birmingham, just by Longbridge and my best mate at school was kicked in the nether regions, he needed a blood transfusion and his parents would not allow it due to being Jehovas Witnesses, He died a few days later and we didn't understand as kids. I would say these people were probably good people who did a very bad thing. I was too young to understand their mentality but they moved on as locals didn't accept it and made their life a misery.

IMO these people were bad (or at the least did a very bad thing) because I think life should come before religion.
I am not saying I know the answers, far from it. I just work along the lines of "what do I think is right" as I am sure most of you realise.

I think you're right, they did a bad thing rather than being bad, because of their religious beliefs, very sad all round especially for your mate, another innocent victim of religious beliefs

ballysmate

I am truly sorry for your friend, a tragic event.


You finally seem to have come around to realising that religion can be responsible for people doing unspeakable acts. It is not people necessarily using it as an excuse but the root cause. In the context of this thread, that religion is Islam.

mamba80

A sad but strange story, as I was under the impression that the UK courts will always back the Doctors judgement and will only listen to a parents wishes where life isn't in immediate danger, also parents are liable to prosecution for deny life saving treatment for their kids, it seems strange the Hospital treating your mate didn't apply to a court?
this has been the case since 1875, long before the JWs introduced blood bans, basically the child's interests are paramount, my auntie has been a barrister in the family division high court in London and she knows of no cases where life saving treatment has been refused, indeed the JWs have challenged 3x and lost 3x.
Of course she maybe wrong and there maybe other reasons for your mates death.

pblakeney

VTech wrote:

Im being open and honest, also not twisting things. Because this was actually a friend I suggest you not try and mock it.

I too had a very close friend who's family were Jehovahs and his Mum died due to a lack of transfusion.
They are both very sad stories and there is no mocking.

I believe that my questions were valid and very pertinent to this thread.

finchy

Sorry to hear about your losses VTech. Was your mum actively religious, or did she just have a positive outlook?

pblakeney

R.I.P. Val Kilmer*.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressiv ... s-beliefs/

*Not yet, but inevitable. Religion? Pah!

mamba80

"In July 2002, at the age of 51, Barry Sheene was diagnosed with cancer of the oesophagus and stomach.[16] Refusing conventional treatments involving chemotherapy, Sheene instead opted for a holistic approach involving a strict diet devised by Austrian healer Rudolf Breuss, intended to starve the cancer of nourishment"

sheene was hardly a religious nutter was he? these people are adults and can make their own minds up, there are plenty of people who don't seek medical treatment, maybe some form of denial?

Children are a completely different matter, which is why the courts in this country, at least, act as they do, in the childs interests.

bianchimoon

mamba80 wrote:

sheene was hardly a religious nutter was he? these people are adults and can make their own minds up, there are plenty of people who don't seek medical treatment, maybe some form of denial?

Children are a completely different matter, which is why the courts in this country, at least, act as they do, in the childs interests.

Don't know the medical facts of his case, could be when he decided to go on the Breuss diet he was in palliative care, so not a lot to lose by trying what was in effect 'faith' healing. If he shunned conventional treatment in favour of the Breuss diet, he helped prove faith/homepathic medicine doesn't work. Did see him race a few times in the transatlantic series at donnington, abiding memory I have is of him, right hand on full throttle, left hand behind his back sticking two fingers up to Kenny Roberts as he passed him on the straight

pblakeney

mamba80 wrote:

sheene was hardly a religious nutter was he? these people are adults and can make their own minds up, there are plenty of people who don't seek medical treatment, maybe some form of denial?

This is true. It is perfectly correct that people can make their own informed decisions.
The key word there is informed.
Does "Christian Science was developed in 19th-century New England by Mary Baker Eddy (1821–1910), who argued in her book Science and Health (1875) that sickness is an illusion that can be corrected by prayer alone." sound sensible, or informed?

bompington

PBlakeney wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

sheene was hardly a religious nutter was he? these people are adults and can make their own minds up, there are plenty of people who don't seek medical treatment, maybe some form of denial?

This is true. It is perfectly correct that people can make their own informed decisions.
The key word there is informed.
Does "Christian Science was developed in 19th-century New England by Mary Baker Eddy (1821–1910), who argued in her book Science and Health (1875) that sickness is an illusion that can be corrected by prayer alone." sound sensible, or informed?

You can be well-informed and still come to a wrong conclusion. And it should be pointed out that Christian Science is neither scientific nor christian.