Charlie Hebdo
Comments
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@slowmart, you can't argue with these people because its a one sided event more than likely born from lack of information.
I was the same when I was brought up on a council estate in Birmingham back in the 70/80's. I was brought up knowing labour were the party for the people and you claim for whatever you can and you do what it takes to get by.
I didn't like this, I didn't like watching third generation families claiming benefits, I didn't like the way people were born, lived and then died in the same area having achieved little.
I am not saying this is what all estates are like but it was what mine was like. Many of my school friends were druggies in their teens and many are dead already.
I chose to escape, I got a job on YTS and then started a business on the princes trust. The government looked after me simply because I wanted to achieve, I didn't drink, take drugs or do as others did.
Thats quite an important thing for people to understand, I never followed anyone, thats why I didn't end up at the same place.Living MY dream.0 -
More views of the peaceful religion.
Seems some are more in favour of free speech than others.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... itism.html0 -
Ballysmate wrote:More views of the peaceful religion.
Seems some are more in favour of free speech than others.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... itism.html
in 42 years I'm yet to meet a bad religion.
I have on the other hand met some bad people.Living MY dream.0 -
Yes there are plenty bad people about. Some people get bad ideas from religion.
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Ballysmate wrote:Yes there are plenty bad people about. Some people get bad ideas from religion.
Can you name one ?
Just one.
Where in the Quran does it say use kids to carry bombs and behead people to make a point.
Where in the bible does it say to rape women and kill the husbands and adult men and then use the kids as slaves.
Where in the Tripitaka does it say to burn alive people of other faiths ?
Do you get my point ?
Religion isn't the problem, its the fact that some people use religion as a passage to violence and hatred but that isn't the religion itself, its just very bad people.Living MY dream.0 -
This point was made quite a few pages ago.VTech wrote:Do you get my point ?
Religion isn't the problem, its the fact that some people use religion as a passage to violence and hatred but that isn't the religion itself, its just very bad people.
Religion in itself isn't the problem. The problem is men's intolerance of others.
That they are using religion as a vessel only confuses matters.
I will not go to places where I do not like the laws or culture and I simply ask others to take the same approach.
If anyone does not like it here, then they can take the Mayor of Rotterdam's advice.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
PBlakeney wrote:
This point was made quite a few pages ago.VTech wrote:Do you get my point ?
Religion isn't the problem, its the fact that some people use religion as a passage to violence and hatred but that isn't the religion itself, its just very bad people.
Religion in itself isn't the problem. The problem is men's intolerance of others.
That they are using religion as a vessel only confuses matters.
I will not go to places where I do not like the laws or culture and I simply ask others to take the same approach.
If anyone does not like it here, then they can take the Mayor of Rotterdam's advice.
Not all the laws here are good.Living MY dream.0 -
VTech wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Yes there are plenty bad people about. Some people get bad ideas from religion.
Can you name one ?
Just one.
Where in the Quran does it say use kids to carry bombs and behead people to make a point.
Where in the bible does it say to rape women and kill the husbands and adult men and then use the kids as slaves.
Where in the Tripitaka does it say to burn alive people of other faiths ?
Do you get my point ?
Religion isn't the problem, its the fact that some people use religion as a passage to violence and hatred but that isn't the religion itself, its just very bad people.
VTech, that last post is beyond absurd.
Read the holy books you mentioned and you find references urging followers to kill in the name of their religion. Some are quoted in this thread.
Religion is the problem. It closes man's mind to free thought and just demands blind obedience.0 -
11. Genesis 19:8 “Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”VTech wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Yes there are plenty bad people about. Some people get bad ideas from religion.
Can you name one ?
Just one.
Where in the Quran does it say use kids to carry bombs and behead people to make a point.
Where in the bible does it say to rape women and kill the husbands and adult men and then use the kids as slaves.
Where in the Tripitaka does it say to burn alive people of other faiths ?
Do you get my point ?
Religion isn't the problem, its the fact that some people use religion as a passage to violence and hatred but that isn't the religion itself, its just very bad people.
but more relevant than the bible is wikipedia
"People who are diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy"All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
bianchimoon wrote:
11. Genesis 19:8 “Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”VTech wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Yes there are plenty bad people about. Some people get bad ideas from religion.
Can you name one ?
Just one.
Where in the Quran does it say use kids to carry bombs and behead people to make a point.
Where in the bible does it say to rape women and kill the husbands and adult men and then use the kids as slaves.
Where in the Tripitaka does it say to burn alive people of other faiths ?
Do you get my point ?
Religion isn't the problem, its the fact that some people use religion as a passage to violence and hatred but that isn't the religion itself, its just very bad people.
but more relevant than the bible is wikipedia
"People who are diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy"
Love it
But your point is ?
In that passage did anything say that god had himself said "kill the girls, leave the men" ?
Your quote seems to be that of a man who is the father of the girls and not the "lord"
Also your comment below, I have no idea what you mean ?
BTW, do you know anyone who needs some work ? I really am getting stressed winding up all of my watches, turning the wines in the cellar and cleaning the fleet of supercars.
Damn, top gear is on, I better go as the kids are calling me as this week has one of my cars on the show.Living MY dream.0 -
From what I can gather Muslim extremists use Islam as their legitimacy for their actions, everything they do is in furtherance of their religion and a very political agenda.
That isn't to say all Muslims are extremists but their cause isn't helped when they (moderates) are asked to assert their British values and to help in the fight against extremism and they complain.....
there are plenty of passages in the Old Testament that condone mass murder, by God himself, and barbaric practises as punishment for evil deeds done.
this one is about mass murder.....God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, also killing Lots wife for daring to look around.
Haven't seen your car yet.... unless its the lambo?0 -
Sorry, unfortunately no, all of my friends, run their own businesses so not really worth their while to do any moonlighting, but will ask around, you never knowAll lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0
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None bad enough to make me want to leave though.VTech wrote:Not all the laws here are good.
All Countries have their bad laws. You make your choice of compromise.
At least we have an avenue to try and change those laws that we don't like.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I agree, laws in other countries do seem far more barbaric but they are changing and they are becoming more in line with ours which I think is good.
You simply can't change everything too quickly, things do take time and I believe the middle east is testament to this.
@mambo80, yes, the lambo.Living MY dream.0 -
Top Gear not holding your attention then?VTech wrote:I agree, laws in other countries do seem far more barbaric but they are changing and they are becoming more in line with ours which I think is good.
You simply can't change everything too quickly, things do take time and I believe the middle east is testament to this.
@mambo80, yes, the lambo.
I see what you did there.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I only watched because they used one of our cars on the show. I am not usually a fan.
I do agree with their thoughts on the car though, thats why we spent 3 months fixing that problem and the end result is spectacular Living MY dream.0 -
Slowmart wrote:mamba80 wrote:Slowmart wrote:PBlakeney wrote:
Really?VTech wrote:Just to help you out a little. A lot of what you wrote above is nonsense. Plenty of women walk in Dubai mall with no sleeves, people hold hands and kissing will not find you arrested but if you were full at it I guess it would offend some.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8602449.stm
You go there knowing the laws and then complain when there is a consequence to breaking the law? Typical Brit.
If you don't agree, don't go. It's really is that simple.
this struck me as rather ironic, considering that anyone saying the same thing about Muslims living in europe would be accused of racism.
Its a great pity Muslims in the west, many of whom have been granted asylum dont take the same attitude.
Equally Dubai is an Arab state where you can practise most religions without persecution although I doubt Tom Cruise will be trying to set up a new church anytime soon.
The majority of UK Muslims were born here in the UK and Islam is not the problem, it's the Islamic extremists.
More than a 1/3 of young British Muslim men want to live under sharia. At what percentage does Islam [as opposed to extremists] become the problem?Infinite diversity, infinte variations0 -
orraloon wrote:Moontrane wrote:
More than a 1/3 of young British Muslim men want to live under sharia.
Your source for this fraction is?
Fox news :roll:
I think the real reason all the right wing natters watch fox news is
“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
orraloon wrote:Moontrane wrote:
More than a 1/3 of young British Muslim men want to live under sharia.
Your source for this fraction is?
I think it comes from a study these guys did in 2007, in other countries its apparently far higher.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/about-us
of course its easy to chuck dirt whist at the same time denying there is any sort of problem and the estimated 1500 uk muslim young men who have travelled to Syria (in the last 3 years) to fight are just an aberration.0 -
Perhaps a heaving bosom or a shapely leg may attract some left wingers to the cause? 0
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No dirt chucking from this direction. Merely asking for facts rather than opinions masquerading as...
Hmm, The Policy Exchange eh?
A quick google pulls up this http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange re this 2007 report. No agenda at all eh?
I note the Policy Exchange website proudly claims credit for the creation of independent Police Commissioners. That's going well in practice innit.0 -
orraloon wrote:No dirt chucking from this direction. Merely asking for facts rather than opinions masquerading as...
Hmm, The Policy Exchange eh?
A quick google pulls up this http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange re this 2007 report. No agenda at all eh?
I note the Policy Exchange website proudly claims credit for the creation of independent Police Commissioners. That's going well in practice innit.
their report was "discredited" by newsnight (the very same that didnt follow up on child abuse re JSaville) over extremist publications NOT on the percentages given, Muslims lost their court claims against PE, paying the organisations costs etc.
if 1500 muslims have gone to fight for ISIS (ACPO figures), how many more syspathise with them or just havent got the determination to go them selves? as some one side, how big does the % need to be before it becomes a problem?
Believe me, i am no right winger but i do not think that so called multiculturalism has worked.
Police Comms were introduced to deflect blame for cuts in Police numbers from central government, so yes worked brilliantly
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There seems to be people on here who for whatever reason refuse to admit that there is a problem with religion and in particular Islam.
Terrorists, extremists, radicals, fundamentalists - call them whatever you like - draw their inspiration and justification from their religion. You can't seriously argue that Islam has had no effect on shaping the thinking and behaviour of the terrorists as they chant their mantra as they commit their atrocities?
Did the writings of Marx not inspire some people to embrace Communism? Or the writing and oratory of Hitler not inspire Fascists? Of course they did. To pretend otherwise is absurd.0 -
Extremism, fundamentalism and fanaticism don't tend to pop up spontaneously; they usually appear in response to extreme economic hardship and/or perceived injustice. The rise of fascism in Germany is widely attributed to crippling war reparations imposed on Germany after world war 1. Note that I'm not justifying terrorism etc, but sooner or later we are going to have to look at why a small minority of muslims have become radicalised and reject 'western' values.
I think a big part of it is the depressing and dismal history of western 'involvement' in the middle-east, most recently of course our disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq following years of crippling sanctions which did no damage to Saddam's regime (a brutal one which Britain and the US supported when it was invading Iran) but which caused the death of half a million Iraqi civilians, including children. The illegal invasion of Iraq (in which cluster bombs and depleted uranium shells were used against civilians) constitutes a war crime, but there is no sign of the inquiry into it being published, while Tony Blair jets around the world with bodyguards paid for by UK taxpayers in his role as 'middle -East peace envoy.
Politicians like Blair and Cameron (who supported the Iraq war) are quick to point to British or western 'values' like freedom and democracy after events like the attacks in Paris, conveniently forgetting that we have consistently failed to maintain those values when 'intervening ' in the middle east. The rise of ISIS is a direct result of US and British intervention, just as the US created the Taliban in Afghanistan by arming local militia to fight against the Russians.
Arms sales, supporting repressive regimes, removing democratically elected governments if we don't like them, invasion, bombing, sanctions, torture, rendition, imprisonment without trial- The US, Britain and to some extent, France have been involved in all these acts which can only be described as state terrorism.
This is without mentioning all the other problems- the ongoing disaster of the Palestinians being the most obvious running sore- which must act as a kind of recruiting poster for extremists and mean that throughout the middle east, ideas like democracy are discredited.
But this is all a bit painful, so let's just blame Islam.0 -
cedargreen wrote:Extremism, fundamentalism and fanaticism don't tend to pop up spontaneously; they usually appear in response to extreme economic hardship and/or perceived injustice. The rise of fascism in Germany is widely attributed to crippling war reparations imposed on Germany after world war 1. Note that I'm not justifying terrorism etc, but sooner or later we are going to have to look at why a small minority of muslims have become radicalised and reject 'western' values.
I think a big part of it is the depressing and dismal history of western 'involvement' in the middle-east, most recently of course our disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq following years of crippling sanctions which did no damage to Saddam's regime (a brutal one which Britain and the US supported when it was invading Iran) but which caused the death of half a million Iraqi civilians, including children. The illegal invasion of Iraq (in which cluster bombs and depleted uranium shells were used against civilians) constitutes a war crime, but there is no sign of the inquiry into it being published, while Tony Blair jets around the world with bodyguards paid for by UK taxpayers in his role as 'middle -East peace envoy.
Politicians like Blair and Cameron (who supported the Iraq war) are quick to point to British or western 'values' like freedom and democracy after events like the attacks in Paris, conveniently forgetting that we have consistently failed to maintain those values when 'intervening ' in the middle east. The rise of ISIS is a direct result of US and British intervention, just as the US created the Taliban in Afghanistan by arming local militia to fight against the Russians.
Arms sales, supporting repressive regimes, removing democratically elected governments if we don't like them, invasion, bombing, sanctions, torture, rendition, imprisonment without trial- The US, Britain and to some extent, France have been involved in all these acts which can only be described as state terrorism.
This is without mentioning all the other problems- the ongoing disaster of the Palestinians being the most obvious running sore- which must act as a kind of recruiting poster for extremists and mean that throughout the middle east, ideas like democracy are discredited.
But this is all a bit painful, so let's just blame Islam.
There is obvious merit in a lot you say about the Middle East and the West's involvement. It is undoubtedly a mess.
But to bring it back to the subject of the thread, Charlie Hebdo. People were killed for a perceived insult to a religion not an invasion of any country. If the attack had been thought to strike a blow against an oppressive invading force, whilst certainly not condoning it, it would be easier to understand. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" and all that.
But people of religion thought that their religion had been insulted and struck back through terrorism. In their minds they drew legitimacy from their religion so surely there has to be a link?
I say again that not all Muslims are terrorists, but some Muslims believe that their religion gives them the moral right to commit barbaric acts.0 -
A very reasoned and fair assessment cedargreen.
I would fully agree with the reasoning if the attacks were against the military, or the political classes, but attacking cartoonists is no revenge for any wrongs done in the past, or current.
Attacking cartoonist gives an impression (to me) more of provocation than revenge.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
agree with both of the above, the 'soft' target was in retaliation/revenge for cartoons not the war in afghanistan. I have no doubt that it got that far because of the policy of bush/blair, their actions spawned/fed the hatred of millions of muslims and a good proportion of western people alike. but don't lose sight of the reality, religiously motivated by the perceived insult to their 'special' friend by a group of cartoonists.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0
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I didn't claim the terrorists are reasonable or rational- they never are. Merely that perceived injustice creates the kind of anger, resentment and disillusion which allows extremist views to flourish and terrorists to gain recruits.
The victims of terrorism are rarely or never the political classes who have created the problems, and who invariably make political capital out of terrorist attacks.0
