Charlie Hebdo

mr_goo

http://news.sky.com/story/1419211/mosques-offer-tea-and-cake-to-ease-tensions

Anyone else off to their local for a cuppa and a sticky bun. Do you think they will be serving bacon butties?

ballysmate

Mr Goo wrote:

http://news.sky.com/story/1419211/mosques-offer-tea-and-cake-to-ease-tensions

Anyone else off to their local for a cuppa and a sticky bun. Do you think they will be serving bacon butties?

Have to pick your mosque carefully it seems.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-day.html


Edit On a more serious note, I feel it a step in the right direction if anything breaks down barriers and reduces tensions. Anything to reduce the us and them feeling, perhaps then we may have a chance to defeat the terrorists.

mr_goo

Just an observation. But has anyone else noticed that mosques appear to have quite a lot of CCTV. Don't think I have seen anything of the sort on churches, cathedrals, temples or synagogues. What are they so concerned about?

VTech

Ballysmate wrote:

We have a bit of fun going on in BB and it would appear that there are more respectable folk than lemmings. :roll:

BUT

VTech
On 13 January you posted

This really isn't a race or religion matter, its just a few people using that as an excuse

You did seem to adhere more or less to this view until today.

Because like many millions of other people the world over, I think the people of IS are not good people.
I believe they use twisted Islamic beliefs to reign terror on normal folk in order to achieve there twisted goal.

You do appreciate the dramatic change don't you?. The second statement shows that you now think the bad men are drawing inspiration from their religion and are not using it solely as an excuse.
You do see the dramatic difference in your two statements don't you?

Perhaps this volte face could be explained by a mis type. I mean, anything else might seem to make you look foolish, wouldnt it?

And you wasted your Sunday for that ?
As I said, and continue to say, it isn't about religion. It's people using religion as the excuse and of that means twisting something, just as you have tried here then so be it.
There will always be two outcomes, those that are stupid enough to believe and join in and those that stand up to it.

Anyway, just in bed with a cuppa so need to rest. I'm getting old and need to chill more.

finchy

Mr Goo wrote:

Just an observation. But has anyone else noticed that mosques appear to have quite a lot of CCTV. Don't think I have seen anything of the sort on churches, cathedrals, temples or synagogues. What are they so concerned about?

Attacks on their mosque, I imagine. There have been a few of them in recent times.

pblakeney

VTech wrote:

Anyway, just in bed with a cuppa so need to rest. I'm getting old and need to chill more.

Hot flushes?

ballysmate

Not wasted an afternoon. I will admit to have wasted two mins typing it up.
As for twisting things, I have used direct quotes. You posted it..

Enjoy your cuppa.

finchy

Some people on here seem to be claiming that Islamic terrorism comes directly from the religion, others are suggesting that it is just people twisting the religion to justify their own means but... has anyone here actually read the Koran? In full I mean, not just the nice bits or nasty bits.

pblakeney

johnfinch wrote:

Some people on here seem to be claiming that Islamic terrorism comes directly from the religion, others are suggesting that it is just people twisting the religion to justify their own means but... has anyone here actually read the Koran? In full I mean, not just the nice bits or nasty bits.

I know quite a few Christians.
None of them have read the Bible in it's entirety.
My opinion, backed up by earlier experience, is that the majority of religious believers attend meetings and get preached to. Although it has been a while, and not all religions.
There will be some that read the whole book but I would doubt it is the majority.

VTech

Ballysmate wrote:

Not wasted an afternoon. I will admit to have wasted two mins typing it up.
As for twisting things, I have used direct quotes. You posted it..

Enjoy your cuppa.

I stand by what I wrote. It's the lines you added that tried to twist it.

I will say it again. Religion isn't the problem. It's bad people and bad people do bad things.
How many people have died because of the bible or the Koran ?

It's bad people that have done the killing.

ballysmate

I disagree.
Religion and any institution that demands unthinking belief or support have been shown to be detrimental to mankind's development.
Millions killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and going back further, The Norse, Greek and Egptian gods. Thousands killed in S America on altars. Religion very much is the problem.

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

I disagree.
Religion and any institution that demands unthinking belief or support have been shown to be detrimental to mankind's development.
Millions killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and going back further, The Norse, Greek and Egptian gods. Thousands killed in S America on altars. Religion very much is the problem.

Lots were killed in athiest Russia and China too. And then for nationalistic reasons too.

Significant differences in opinion on how to live & organise society is probably a better description.

VTech

Ballysmate wrote:

I disagree.
Religion and any institution that demands unthinking belief or support have been shown to be detrimental to mankind's development.
Millions killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and going back further, The Norse, Greek and Egptian gods. Thousands killed in S America on altars. Religion very much is the problem.

Amazing that after the tennis match of back and forth you have now agreed totally with me.
In the name of !

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

I guess excuses cover a broad spectrum. USA used it against Sadam Hussain when oil was needed. Funny now that shale is working a treat that war isn't needed and they seem to want to pull away and at the same time France becomes number 1 enemy of IS.

Anyway, me and you are not a problem. I still think that Charlie Hebdu made a terrible mistake in the issuing of the magazine insult. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

rick_chasey

VTech wrote:

. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Says the boxing fan.

ballysmate

I didn't say religion was the sole reason for mass death, but certainly a major one. That being the case would we not have fared better without it?

VTech

Rick Chasey wrote:

VTech wrote:

. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Says the boxing fan.

Cutting people's head off in the name of Islam is quite a way from the sport of boxing where two sportsmen stand face to face in a ring and abide by a set of rules.
Even you should understand that ?

pblakeney

VTech wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

VTech wrote:

. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Says the boxing fan.

Cutting people's head off in the name of Islam is quite a way from the sport of boxing where two sportsmen stand face to face in a ring and abide by a set of rules.
Even you should understand that ?

The caffeine in that cup of tea really kicked in!

ballysmate

VTech wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

I disagree.
Religion and any institution that demands unthinking belief or support have been shown to be detrimental to mankind's development.
Millions killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and going back further, The Norse, Greek and Egptian gods. Thousands killed in S America on altars. Religion very much is the problem.

Amazing that after the tennis match of back and forth you have now agreed totally with me.
In the name of !

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

I guess excuses cover a broad spectrum. USA used it against Sadam Hussain when oil was needed. Funny now that shale is working a treat that war isn't needed and they seem to want to pull away and at the same time France becomes number 1 enemy of IS.

Anyway, me and you are not a problem. I still think that Charlie Hebdu made a terrible mistake in the issuing of the magazine insult. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Yes of course bad people commit bad acts. No argument there. Good people get indoctrinated in bizarre ideas and also commit bad acts. Take away the indoctrination. They don't use religion as an excuse, they believe that what they are doing is right.
Someone who uses an excuse knows that their actions are wrong. People with a belief, believe their actions are right.

rick_chasey

VTech wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

VTech wrote:

. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Says the boxing fan.

Cutting people's head off in the name of Islam is quite a way from the sport of boxing where two sportsmen stand face to face in a ring and abide by a set of rules.
Even you should understand that ?

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

VTech wrote:

. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Says the boxing fan.

Weirdo !!

VTech

Ballysmate wrote:

VTech wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

I disagree.
Religion and any institution that demands unthinking belief or support have been shown to be detrimental to mankind's development.
Millions killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and going back further, The Norse, Greek and Egptian gods. Thousands killed in S America on altars. Religion very much is the problem.

Amazing that after the tennis match of back and forth you have now agreed totally with me.
In the name of !

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

I guess excuses cover a broad spectrum. USA used it against Sadam Hussain when oil was needed. Funny now that shale is working a treat that war isn't needed and they seem to want to pull away and at the same time France becomes number 1 enemy of IS.

Anyway, me and you are not a problem. I still think that Charlie Hebdu made a terrible mistake in the issuing of the magazine insult. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Yes of course bad people commit bad acts. No argument there. Good people get indoctrinated in bizarre ideas and also commit bad acts. Take away the indoctrination. They don't use religion as an excuse, they believe that what they are doing is right.
Someone who uses an excuse knows that their actions are wrong. People with a belief, believe their actions are right.

I can accept that viewpoint but that brings the question, do you think people of IS do genuinely believe they are laying down the rule of God ?
In an ideal world I would like to think not but of that I guess I cant be sure.

ballysmate

VTech wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

VTech wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

I disagree.
Religion and any institution that demands unthinking belief or support have been shown to be detrimental to mankind's development.
Millions killed in the name of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and going back further, The Norse, Greek and Egptian gods. Thousands killed in S America on altars. Religion very much is the problem.

Amazing that after the tennis match of back and forth you have now agreed totally with me.
In the name of !

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

I guess excuses cover a broad spectrum. USA used it against Sadam Hussain when oil was needed. Funny now that shale is working a treat that war isn't needed and they seem to want to pull away and at the same time France becomes number 1 enemy of IS.

Anyway, me and you are not a problem. I still think that Charlie Hebdu made a terrible mistake in the issuing of the magazine insult. Fighting people with a punch doesn't work.

Yes of course bad people commit bad acts. No argument there. Good people get indoctrinated in bizarre ideas and also commit bad acts. Take away the indoctrination. They don't use religion as an excuse, they believe that what they are doing is right.
Someone who uses an excuse knows that their actions are wrong. People with a belief, believe their actions are right.

I can accept that viewpoint but that brings the question, do you think people of IS do genuinely believe they are laying down the rule of God ?
In an ideal world I would like to think not but of that I guess I cant be sure.

No one can be sure what goes on in another's mind, but I suppose the point is moot to the poor bastards that they murder and torture.

finchy

If a cult leader can, from scratch, indoctrinate adults into believing that an alien spaceship is following a comet, and they all need to commit suicide so that they can join the aliens, then I can imagine that (justifiably) angry Muslims who have been raised within the Islamic religion could be led to believe that they are doing God's work by killing the infidels.

Anyway, apart from PBlakeney, nobody's answered my question. Without reading the Koran ourselves, how do we know that IS/other religious fundamentalists aren't the true Muslims who are doing what they are instructed to by their holy book? Why do we always assume that the nice people are the true believers?

RDW

Ballysmate wrote:

Have to pick your mosque carefully it seems.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-day.html

The main thing seems to be to pick one that's actually open (though of course the Mail went with the provocative headline anyway):

Esmat Jeraj, a managing trustee for the Hyderi Islamic Centre, told MailOnline that Ms Newman had accidentally turned up at the wrong mosque.

She said: 'She was always supposed to come to our centre. She had been sent to the wrong mosque.

'When she arrived, they weren't expecting any guests. It wasn't because she was a woman, but because they weren't operating an open-door policy that day.

'They weren't expecting any visitors or holding any services either, I think.'

She added: 'Her colleagues were already here. Once she arrived at our centre, we gave her a cup of tea and had a chat.'

finchy

Looking at the best rated comments under a Daily Mail article is always depressing. One of them says that Muslims should be chucked out of Britain because she turned up in the wrong place. :roll:

Wynne G Oldman

I think that the problem with religion is that it can be used to make good people do bad things, due to the unquestionable nature of all religions teachings, which are open to interpretation by both good and bad people. Richard Feynman wrote "I'd rather have a question that I cannot answer than an answer that cannot be questioned." I'm an Atheist but I do know quite a few people that are Christians and Muslims and they're all decent people. I believe that the vast majority of religious people are decent, and want to do good, but as in all walks of life, there are a small minority of bad people in religious communities. Unfortunately, some of these bad people use the unquestioning nature of belief to persuade others that they're doing good by harming those of a different faith, or even those of the same faith who do not agree with their agenda, branding them as heretics. I'm afraid that it's the way of the world, and religion will be with us for the foreseeable future. I think that the only solutions are freedom of speech, freedom of information and decent education on a global scale.

Russp

VTech wrote:

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

What about faith healing? Are those bad people killing their loved ones by refusing modern medicines in favour of their "belief"?
Religion is one of the few things which sometimes make good people do bad things.

ballysmate

Well Finchy, I must admit to not having studied the Koran, although I have more knowledge of the Bible,albeit from childhood. Quite an admission I suppose for someone who has been more anti religion than most.

I know there will be people on here that are religious and I wonder if they could shed light on something that baffles me.
If I or anyone else stood up and proclaimed that God had spoken to me, I would no doubt be branded a nutter. Or if I wrote a book saying I'd met someone who God had spoken to, I would be ridiculed. Why then are people so ready to believe the Bible or Koran?
Faith? But faith in what? They are surely putting their faith in the people who wrote such works, faith in the fact that they are not charlatans. The Book of Mormon for instance has been shown to be based on work fabricated by Joseph Smith but it still attracts followers. Why is that?

pblakeney

Ballysmate wrote:

Faith? But faith in what? They are surely putting their faith in the people who wrote such works, faith in the fact that they are not charlatans. The Book of Mormon for instance has been shown to be based on work fabricated by Joseph Smith but it still attracts followers. Why is that?

Some people cannot contemplate the utter futility of their meaningless lives and cling on to something, anything, that will give reason to their life.
The answer of course is children, but with that comes great responsibility. It is easier to place that responsibility onto some deity.
Although some have given up on that route and now leave it up to the State. But that is another rant.

VTech

Russp wrote:

VTech wrote:

Religion doesn't kill. Bad people kill. They use religion as an excuse.

What about faith healing? Are those bad people killing their loved ones by refusing modern medicines in favour of their "belief"?
Religion is one of the few things which sometimes make good people do bad things.

)

No, its the illness that kills the people.
When you are faced with terminal illness (and I've been around this for the past 3 years with my mother and now with my best friend having an incurable brain tumour) I honestly think faith can help. Maybe in your chosen god and maybe in alternative thinking or therapy.

I have personally witnessed both sides of the coin in this.
1) My mother (pancreatic cancer) who accepted her path and although tried chemo and radio therapy, did as much in the months she had left as she possibly could. She spent as much time with the grandkids as she could and kept her chin up throughout.

2) One of my oldest friends and best man at my wedding (brain tumour) has totally given up on life since getting his results, he has already lived past worst case scenario but lives in a life where he is just waiting to die and has not enjoyed a minute of the past 14 months that he has been alive.

I do not know which is right or wrong, I do however believe that it is better not to know when your time is up.
My mother thought that clean living would help her, she was always of that mind but started to use more veg, peppermint tea, no caffeine etc and she thrived so I guess that worked for her although she didn't live past the initial time scale given by doctors.

My friend on the other hand is still living and in reasonable health in that he has all of his senses and although can't drive he can get a cab or a bus and move about as good as the next man but is dreadfully unhappy and depressed.