Do you still want to stay in EU now?

DeVlaeminck

mamba80 wrote:

I dont agree with all ugo has said, the uk he has described is more 1970s than mid 90's, of course cheap flights have bought about a massive change in holiday habits, but basically he is correct, once big business backs the pro EU lobby, the uk will vote to stay in.

Yes of course I don't think that is controversial is it, the main parties will all back staying in as will the BBC and most of the media. Very few people are economists and able to make a judgement on the economic risks independently of that. Can I just add here that that does not mean I think we should leave just that I don't think it's in question that the odds are in favour of a vote going the way of staying in.

dabber

The way I see it is....
A large number of people are unhappy with the EU in its current form and want change.
Come the referendum they have to decide whether that unhappiness is outweighed by the fear of financial uncertainty if we left.
If they vote to remain in the EU nothing will change. The direction the EU has taken will continue.
So, does principle take precedence over personal security.

This reminds me of the Scottish independence vote. I had the impression from articles and interviews that the majority of Scots wanted to leave the UK but were minded to vote to stay because (and only) because of financial fear. Not because they wanted the union to continue.

ugo.santalucia

Dabber wrote:

If they vote to remain in the EU nothing will change. The direction the EU has taken will continue.
So, does principle take precedence over personal security.

This reminds me of the Scottish independence vote. I had the impression from articles and interviews that the majority of Scots wanted to leave the UK but were minded to vote to stay because (and only) because of financial fear. Not because they wanted the union to continue.

Pretty much any EU country moan about the EU... none is prepared to leave... the benefits outweigh the hassle of being bossed by nonsensical bureaucrats...

Stevo_666

Dabber wrote:

This reminds me of the Scottish independence vote. I had the impression from articles and interviews that the majority of Scots wanted to leave the UK but were minded to vote to stay because (and only) because of financial fear. Not because they wanted the union to continue.

I still think the comparisons with Scottish independence vote are not that good - there is a big difference between exiting a 300 year old voluntary union of nations and choosing to back away from one that has not yet happened. IMO we are more confident we can do pretty well outside of this particular arrangement. The Scots didn't even know what currency they would be able to use if they left the UK!

On another note, the UK is not the only country 'moaning' about the extra bill from the EU - we have the backing of Netherlands, Greece and Italy who have all been landed with extra payments

Stevo_666

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Pretty much any EU country moan about the EU... none is prepared to leave... the benefits outweigh the hassle of being bossed by nonsensical bureaucrats...

We will see...

pblakeney

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Show me a German who didn't think him/herself Bavarian first, German second, and european last (example, obviously)

I do like a challenge!
They appear to be trying to sell the area based on that very principle.
http://www.work-in-bavaria.de/en/employ ... y-of-life/

BelgianBeerGeek

PBlakeney wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Show me a German who didn't think him/herself Bavarian first, German second, and european last (example, obviously)

I do like a challenge!
They appear to be trying to sell the area based on that very principle.
http://www.work-in-bavaria.de/en/employ ... y-of-life/

My point was, trying to deflate the UKIP nonsense a bit, is that many european countries see themselves as "different" from their immediate, same language speaking, neighbours. Some areas of Germany cannot understand other Germans due to dialect used. Or in the case of Belgium, distinctly mutliligual, they seek conformity and unanimity.
We all have more in common with our neighbours than we think. Just because they speak differently, or look different, should we ignore them?

ugo.santalucia

Spontaneous street parties celebrate the end of European tyranny for the peoples of Great Britain...

Hells bells and Fish & chips for all

BelgianBeerGeek

That's it Ugo. Loving it. I am nailing my colours to the mast. I am a proud European and love it. Credentials: my Grandfather settled here after the last European war and raised a family. Half of my family have a Polish surname.
We are everywhere, and love you all (can't speak for my South African cousins, they can live they're own lives :P )

Love and peace to all reading this. I' ll s' thee on road.

ugo.santalucia

Romanians with catapults have been seen outside Rochester, preparing for a siege, according to some MPs... be afraid of the migrant... be very afraid!

Stevo_666

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Romanians with catapults have been seen outside Rochester, preparing for a siege, according to some MPs... be afraid of the migrant... be very afraid!

Missing the point again - can't tell whether it is deliberate or not

blackpoolkev

I remember the doom and gloom merchants telling us "The end is nigh" and "Here comes the apocalypse" when Britain opted out of the Euro. You'll have to forgive me for being sceptical about the dire predictions for the U.K.'s future by the same people, re - Britain leaving the EU.

mr_goo

Below is an extract for EU Business News. This ladies and gentlemen is just an indication of where some of the £bns donated by UK tax payers goes. Nice to know that at least one country is getting a new pristine motorway network for nothing, while the UKs' roads are crumbling away to dust. I have nothing against the Polish or Poland. But if you cannot afford a new motorway, then don't have one.

Thanks to European Union funds, about 1,300 kilometres (807 miles) of motorways now criss-cross Poland, but this still falls short compared to the total 269,000 kilometres of paved roads.

Since 2007, Warsaw has received six billion euros ($7.6 billion) in EU funds to bring its road network up to speed.

The A2 motorway linking Warsaw with Berlin, finished just days ahead of the Euro 2012 football championships co-hosted by Poland and non-EU neighbour Ukraine this June, was a key project.

With a market of 38.2 million consumers, Poland is Central Europe largest economy. It was allocated a total of 67.3 billion euros in EU cohesion funds in the 27-member bloc's 2007-13 budget, making it the most significant beneficiary receiving almost a fifth of the available resources for the time frame.

mr_goo

Getting back to this bollox about the UK being a proverbial cr4phole right up until the 90s. I'm sorry UGO but have you just crossed over from a parallel universe. Only the industrialised wealthy areas of Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece were up to scratch. The rest was pretty much backwards and basic which was in part the attraction for tourists from UK, Germany, Scandinavia and Benelux. Hence why an expanded EU was such an attractive proposition. It enabled some countries to improve their infrastructure without having to pay.

I also remember as a kid holidaying every summer in France during the 70s where one could find thousands of working class Brits on the campsites. What I would concede is that things like service stations (despite hole in the ground cr4pper5), motorways and supermarkets were pretty much better than UK.

Stevo_666

Mr Goo wrote:

Below is an extract for EU Business News. This ladies and gentlemen is just an indication of where some of the £bns donated by UK tax payers goes. Nice to know that at least one country is getting a new pristine motorway network for nothing, while the UKs' roads are crumbling away to dust. I have nothing against the Polish or Poland. But if you cannot afford a new motorway, then don't have one.

Thanks to European Union funds, about 1,300 kilometres (807 miles) of motorways now criss-cross Poland, but this still falls short compared to the total 269,000 kilometres of paved roads.

Since 2007, Warsaw has received six billion euros ($7.6 billion) in EU funds to bring its road network up to speed.

The A2 motorway linking Warsaw with Berlin, finished just days ahead of the Euro 2012 football championships co-hosted by Poland and non-EU neighbour Ukraine this June, was a key project.

With a market of 38.2 million consumers, Poland is Central Europe largest economy. It was allocated a total of 67.3 billion euros in EU cohesion funds in the 27-member bloc's 2007-13 budget, making it the most significant beneficiary receiving almost a fifth of the available resources for the time frame.

One of the great cons of the EU is to take money from the member countries in the form of these massive levies, then claim the credit for giving grants and funding and funding to beneficiaries they choose - 'ooh look, aren't we generous'. They then create a large number of people who are in favour of the EU because they receive this funding, not realising it is their tax money that funded it in the first place :roll:

It is a bit like the last Labour Govts attempt to create the 'client state' by bribing large numbers of the UK electorate with their own money, but on a much larger and wider basis. What is surprsing is how many otherwise intelligent people fall for this ruse...

ugo.santalucia

January 2019: following the eviction of celebrity chefs Raymond Blanc and Michel Roux Jr and the voluntary exile of Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey, some sense is finally restored in the nation.



Meanwhile a letter of congratulations from Pyongyang has been delivered to no. 10 this morning

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

One of the great cons of the EU is to take money from the member countries in the form of these massive levies, then claim the credit for giving grants and funding and funding to beneficiaries they choose - 'ooh look, aren't we generous'. They then create a large number of people who are in favour of the EU because they receive this funding, not realising it is their tax money that funded it in the first place :roll:

It is a bit like the last Labour Govts attempt to create the 'client state' by bribing large numbers of the UK electorate with their own money, but on a much larger and wider basis. What is surprsing is how many otherwise intelligent people fall for this ruse...

As opposed to Tory election year tax cuts....

rick_chasey

Presumably Stevo hasn't visited places like Sheffield which have hugely benefited from EU money when they were labelled objective 2 places and received direct investment - something which UK govts had struggled to do for a couple of decades.

The reason the UK pays more than it gets back is because it's richer than other states so has a responsibility to grow its neighbours so the overall EU pie gets bigger.

Just like West Germany pumped enormous amounts into East Germany after reunification.

ugo.santalucia

Rick Chasey wrote:

Presumably Stevo hasn't visited places like Sheffield which have hugely benefited from EU money when they were labelled objective 2 places and received direct investment - something which UK govts had struggled to do for a couple of decades.

While Ugo lived for three years in Sheffield between 2000 and 2003 and saw all of this happening...

ugo.santalucia

French Bakery Paul to close 18 shops on the High Street. Canadian Giant Robin's Donuts in negotiations for a possible takeover.

President R. McDonald comments: now that Britain is out of the EU, it's much easier for us to do business... EU regulations about food additives are protectionism at its best, but watch out, we are coming to a street near you!

nathancom

Stevo 666 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Below is an extract for EU Business News. This ladies and gentlemen is just an indication of where some of the £bns donated by UK tax payers goes. Nice to know that at least one country is getting a new pristine motorway network for nothing, while the UKs' roads are crumbling away to dust. I have nothing against the Polish or Poland. But if you cannot afford a new motorway, then don't have one.

Thanks to European Union funds, about 1,300 kilometres (807 miles) of motorways now criss-cross Poland, but this still falls short compared to the total 269,000 kilometres of paved roads.

Since 2007, Warsaw has received six billion euros ($7.6 billion) in EU funds to bring its road network up to speed.

The A2 motorway linking Warsaw with Berlin, finished just days ahead of the Euro 2012 football championships co-hosted by Poland and non-EU neighbour Ukraine this June, was a key project.

With a market of 38.2 million consumers, Poland is Central Europe largest economy. It was allocated a total of 67.3 billion euros in EU cohesion funds in the 27-member bloc's 2007-13 budget, making it the most significant beneficiary receiving almost a fifth of the available resources for the time frame.

One of the great cons of the EU is to take money from the member countries in the form of these massive levies, then claim the credit for giving grants and funding and funding to beneficiaries they choose - 'ooh look, aren't we generous'. They then create a large number of people who are in favour of the EU because they receive this funding, not realising it is their tax money that funded it in the first place :roll:

It is a bit like the last Labour Govts attempt to create the 'client state' by bribing large numbers of the UK electorate with their own money, but on a much larger and wider basis. What is surprsing is how many otherwise intelligent people fall for this ruse...

It is developing the economy of member states thus increasing the size of the internal EU market. I would have thought capitalists would be all for that. Certainly the direct beneficiaries are the poorer countries but everyone benefits.

This isn't so different to what we want to see on a national level - economic development in the regions that creates a market for goods and services for all other regions. The alternative is just developing the centre (London or France/Germany/UK) which creates an unbalanced economy and all the instability that this generates.

The European project makes sense but it is easy to pick it apart based only on its deficiencies without reference to the benefits it is generating for everyone.

Lookyhere

I was speaking to a Pole I met recently and he said he and his family would like to return to Poland but reckons the economy is still v poor and corruption is rife so is going to stay put in Newport... so things must be terrible back home

ukiboy

I'd like to still stay in the EU so those lovely unelected, gravy train riding cnuts such as Jose Manuel Barroso can retire on 100k a year courtesy of poor, simple minded, tax paying plebs like me..
I contribute to the EU budget through my taxes but it won't help me like it will help him...
Farage or Barroso? Hmmm... Tricky one that!

mamba80

ukiboy wrote:

I'd like to still stay in the EU so those lovely unelected, gravy train riding cnuts such as Jose Manuel Barroso can retire on 100k a year courtesy of poor, simple minded, tax paying plebs like me..
I contribute to the EU budget through my taxes but it won't help me like it will help him...
Farage or Barroso? Hmmm... Tricky one that!

don't worry Lafarage will want a lot more than that to retire on.

letap73

ukiboy wrote:

I'd like to still stay in the EU so those lovely unelected, gravy train riding cnuts such as Jose Manuel Barroso can retire on 100k a year courtesy of poor, simple minded, tax paying plebs like me..
I contribute to the EU budget through my taxes but it won't help me like it will help him...
Farage or Barroso? Hmmm... Tricky one that!

The chances are that if we came out of the EU some other lovely unelected, gravy train riding cnut would benefit from simple minded tax paying plebs like us. How much do you know about PFI contracts?

mr_goo

I asked UGO a few pages ago for some tangible benefits of UK membership to the EU and the £bns it pumps in every year. Pictures and news articles acceptable. Thank you very much in anticipation in being enlightened and astounded.



Tank columns salute Comrades Barosso and Junker, before heading towards the Channel Tunnel in order to put those independent thinking Brits in their place.

mxp27824

You've asked for links and been provided them. Your inability to read does not mean the information is not there to be read.

mr_goo

mxp27824 wrote:

You've asked for links and been provided them. Your inability to read does not mean the information is not there to be read.

Nope. Not there. Just check all pages of the thread. And all I can find are links to reports on financial benefits, the FS industry and the origins of the EU.

Show me a picture of a nice suspension bridge, motorway, flood alleviation canal or secondary school etc, etc, that has been paid for entirely by EU money with absolutely zero percentage of the costs coming from the UK.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Presumably Stevo hasn't visited places like Sheffield which have hugely benefited from EU money when they were labelled objective 2 places and received direct investment - something which UK govts had struggled to do for a couple of decades.

The reason the UK pays more than it gets back is because it's richer than other states so has a responsibility to grow its neighbours so the overall EU pie gets bigger.

Just like West Germany pumped enormous amounts into East Germany after reunification.

I'm sure we can both pull up examples of where EU investment has worked or not worked. My own experience of EU northern largesse is that my home town is still an armpit even after getting EU funding.

But you are missing the point just like Ugo - the point here is that we should as a nation decide what and where we invest, not the EU. The refusal of the EU to recognise or respond to the desire for national self determination is what drives a lot of the resentment against it and will likely end up in the UK leaving the EU.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Presumably Stevo hasn't visited places like Sheffield which have hugely benefited from EU money when they were labelled objective 2 places and received direct investment - something which UK govts had struggled to do for a couple of decades.

The reason the UK pays more than it gets back is because it's richer than other states so has a responsibility to grow its neighbours so the overall EU pie gets bigger.

Just like West Germany pumped enormous amounts into East Germany after reunification.

I'm sure we can both pull up examples of where EU investment has worked or not worked. My own experience of EU northern largesse is that my home town is still an armpit even after getting EU funding.

But you are missing the point just like Ugo - the point here is that we should as a nation decide what and where we invest, not the EU. The refusal of the EU to recognise or respond to the desire for national self determination is what drives a lot of the resentment against it and will likely end up in the UK leaving the EU.

You do vote for the EU you know.... It's not some private club...! The UK has a say in it - proportional to its population! If anything, if the UK leaves, it still has to deal with the EU, but without having a say in what they do...

I guess you feel much more strongly about a 'nation' and the sanctity of it. I don't feel particularly strongly that the UK 'as a nation' should decide. I'm ok with an elected EU parliament.

I'm fairly mongrel, culturally and by blood so I don't feel a particular need for 'national' self determinism. I don't feel particularly British or whatever. I do feel European I guess. Unsurprisingly, my friends are the same (confirmation bias). Even professionally, I spend most of my time talking and meeting people from all across the world, so I never really come across nationalism in my daily life. Most of the time i come into contact with nationhood is on a practical level when I'm having to sort out visas etc, which is such a pain.