Do you still want to stay in EU now?

mr_goo

Unbelievably the unelected diplomats in Brussels are demanding that the UK pays an extra £1.7bn, because our economy has performed so much better than expected. Do you lot out there in Bike Radar think the UK should stay in the EU, especially those of you who have businesses and jobs that trade on mainland Europe?

UKIP are going to dine out on this until next May and rightly so, and the Tories can kiss goodbye to Rochester & Strood.

As a reminder to those who are not suffering under the current austerity. We have an increasing population reliant on Food Banks, Public employees ie; nurses and firemen that work damned hard and have not seen any real term pay rises in years. An NHS system on the brink of collapse. Cuts to services in the community. Zero hours and low pay jobs are the main source of jobs growth. Uncontrolled immigration from both inside and outside EU, which puts pressure on our stretched resources. Need I go on?
And as one of my clients pointed out, we have not seen 'real austerity and cuts yet'.

Cameron thinks he can renegotiate the UKs part in the EU. Brussels are just going to tell him to take a hike.

pblakeney

Has Mr. Cameron not just spent the last 6 months telling us how we are better together and strength comes from being part of a larger community?

mr_goo

PBlakeney wrote:

Has Mr. Cameron not just spent the last 6 months telling us how we are better together and strength comes from being part of a larger community?

So he has. But he was referring to the large community of super rich. They are in it together. Getting richer and paying less tax.
I will hold my hands up and admit to voting for Camoron. I could never ever vote Tory again. Nor would I vote for Labour or Lib Dems. They are all one and the same.

Stevo_666

Mr Goo wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Has Mr. Cameron not just spent the last 6 months telling us how we are better together and strength comes from being part of a larger community?

So he has. But he was referring to the large community of super rich. They are in it together. Getting richer and paying less tax.
I will hold my hands up and admit to voting for Camoron. I could never ever vote Tory again. Nor would I vote for Labour or Lib Dems. They are all one and the same.

I don't think that was what Cameron was referring to.

However is this thread about EU membership or about a small section of society allegedly not paying 'their fair share'? You seem to have taken your own thread off on a tangent quite quickly.

dabber

Time to dig up Maggie and tell them to go swivel for the money.

bdu98252

The EU original intentions of a common market were good and remain good. Where it fell down was when it tried to become a super state like America. We do not share a common view or national identity with other countries which exists is the USA between states. I am purely interested in the EU being a vehicle for trade. I could not care less about the other stuff as our individual country governments were capable of managing this stuff before and could do so again.

Like all things once you create the institution then it grows regardless of the wishes of its members. This is fundamentally undemocratic and it is getting to the point where the bulk of the population may choose to take their chances with the UK out of Europe. Whilst this may cause damage to the economy the constant push for more and more control by the EU makes this inevitable with the general public.

team47b

Mr Goo wrote:

Need I go on?

I don't know, how long does a knee-jerk reaction take?

mr_goo

team47b wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Need I go on?

I don't know, how long does a knee-jerk reaction take?

Its not a knee jerk reaction. This has been building up for some time.

Ben6899

Mr Goo wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Has Mr. Cameron not just spent the last 6 months telling us how we are better together and strength comes from being part of a larger community?

So he has. But he was referring to the large community of super rich. They are in it together. Getting richer and paying less tax.
I will hold my hands up and admit to voting for Camoron. I could never ever vote Tory again. Nor would I vote for Labour or Lib Dems. They are all one and the same.

:roll:

BelgianBeerGeek

bdu98252 wrote:

The EU original intentions of a common market were good and remain good. Where it fell down was when it tried to become a super state like America. We do not share a common view or national identity with other countries which exists is the USA between states. I am purely interested in the EU being a vehicle for trade. I could not care less about the other stuff as our individual country governments were capable of managing this stuff before and could do so again.

Like all things once you create the institution then it grows regardless of the wishes of its members. This is fundamentally undemocratic and it is getting to the point where the bulk of the population may choose to take their chances with the UK out of Europe. Whilst this may cause damage to the economy the constant push for more and more control by the EU makes this inevitable with the general public.

The idea of a "United States of Europe" has been around for a very long time.

tangled_metal

Sorry about off topic but there is a big refrain that anyone left leaning sings about the hard working nurses and firemen. The idea that they have had a pay freeze like so many others but they deserve better. Can I ask Mr Goo what his hierarchy of jobs is and at what level do they not deserve a real terms pay increase in line with the cost of living. At what point in the job hierarchy do we switch over from un-deserving to deserving?

I only say this because a lot of people work damn hard in the private sector, the private, manufacturing sector where things are still being made and not just providing a service. I know we are not worthy of a pay increase but I personally would just love to be earning what I was back in 2007/ early 2008. I have not had a real terms pay reduction but an actual pay reduction where the pay packet has actually gone down. That happened in the left leaning Labour government days BTW. It's a result of a redundancy and having to take a lower paid job to make ends meet.

All that is off topic but I dearly want to know how I can calibrate our worthiness scale so I can work out just how much of a pay cut I can expect to give those worthy occupations a pay rise? BTW I do think we should be paying nurses a good pay for what they do same with firemen/people. Also manufacturing workers, cleaners, binmen, office administrators, shop assistants, charity workers that are employees not volunteers, etc. In fact i believe in the living wage.

I guess I am just being argumentative with all this and probably on my own in questioning the worthiness idea. My view is that I believe in living wage, anything else is just gravy!!

tangled_metal

So how would you change it?

All well and good complaining about 1.7 billion that we technically do owe due to the relevent treaties and agreements. Those apply to all countries not just the UK. In fact Greece too has to cough up a lot. IIRC it is due to how well country's economy has done over a number of years. Knowing how delayed the EU is with their budgets this has probably only just been calculated probably 15 years too late. If so then over that time Greece has grown even if the shrinkage of the recent years had been hard they are net recipients of the benefits of being in the EU.

The same with the UK, it has done well in the EU over the years. What I struggle with is the way Germany is owed money. With that great economy?!! Of course they do pay in more than us due to our shrinking but still there rebate. Perhaps this is one way around part of our rebate, claim it back through any technically correct but morally and economically wrong formula in obscure parts of treaties. EU's way of sticking two fingers up at Maggie's grave!!! A grudge that festered and paid back in part. Still that figure is large to us but not in terms of our share of the budget I reckon. Not got the figures and can' be bothered looking for them but I reckon we pay up a lot more than that each year so as to make this mor political hot potato than financial one.

team47b

Mr Goo wrote:

team47b wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Need I go on?

I don't know, how long does a knee-jerk reaction take?

Its not a knee jerk reaction. This has been building up for some time.

The assessment is based on the previous 19 years of the economy, the reaction is an out of context knee-jerk one aimed at short term political gain unlikely to achieve anything, and is just being piled onto your already heaped xenophobic agenda.

But then why not say what you believe to be true

nathancom

It is easy to blame Europe because then you don't have to take responsibility for anything. I would find it hard to list even 1 way in which Europe has been a detriment to my life and to be honest few clear benefits, though freedom of movement and free trade have clearly benefited us all. Therefore whether we are anti- or pro- Europe is much more a gut choice than a reasoned decision.

I don't doubt that there is much wrong with the political settlement in Europe currently but just walking away seems a poor way of influencing the future of our shared continent.

thegreatdivide

Mr Goo wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Has Mr. Cameron not just spent the last 6 months telling us how we are better together and strength comes from being part of a larger community?

So he has. But he was referring to the large community of super rich. They are in it together. Getting richer and paying less tax.
I will hold my hands up and admit to voting for Camoron. I could never ever vote Tory again. Nor would I vote for Labour or Lib Dems. They are all one and the same.

So what you're really saying is you're voting UKIP at the next election.

mr_goo

Tangled Metal wrote:

Sorry about off topic but there is a big refrain that anyone left leaning sings about the hard working nurses and firemen. The idea that they have had a pay freeze like so many others but they deserve better. Can I ask Mr Goo what his hierarchy of jobs is and at what level do they not deserve a real terms pay increase in line with the cost of living. At what point in the job hierarchy do we switch over from un-deserving to deserving?

I only say this because a lot of people work damn hard in the private sector, the private, manufacturing sector where things are still being made and not just providing a service. I know we are not worthy of a pay increase but I personally would just love to be earning what I was back in 2007/ early 2008. I have not had a real terms pay reduction but an actual pay reduction where the pay packet has actually gone down. That happened in the left leaning Labour government days BTW. It's a result of a redundancy and having to take a lower paid job to make ends meet.

All that is off topic but I dearly want to know how I can calibrate our worthiness scale so I can work out just how much of a pay cut I can expect to give those worthy occupations a pay rise? BTW I do think we should be paying nurses a good pay for what they do same with firemen/people. Also manufacturing workers, cleaners, binmen, office administrators, shop assistants, charity workers that are employees not volunteers, etc. In fact i believe in the living wage.

I guess I am just being argumentative with all this and probably on my own in questioning the worthiness idea. My view is that I believe in living wage, anything else is just gravy!!

I work in private sector for a manufacturer (privately owned). Been here nearly two years and we all work hard at our jobs. However when I first joined, I was horrified to learn that many of the people working on shop floor and offices had not had any pay rise in last 10 years. Easy to say get another job, but the location of the establishment is such, that it is very hard for some to find alternative employment without long journey.

I have noticed that salaries for my particular job role (sales/biz dev in construction) have stagnated or become lower and the employer wants more from the job. One of my clients an architect on the south coast told me he now earns less in fees than a dozen years ago and is considering giving up.

It is all well and good for the government to say employment is up and the economy is growing. But the fact is that wages for most in public and private sector are low and set against increased costs of living and the economic recovery is from a low base.

mr_goo

thegreatdivide wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Has Mr. Cameron not just spent the last 6 months telling us how we are better together and strength comes from being part of a larger community?

So he has. But he was referring to the large community of super rich. They are in it together. Getting richer and paying less tax.
I will hold my hands up and admit to voting for Camoron. I could never ever vote Tory again. Nor would I vote for Labour or Lib Dems. They are all one and the same.

So what you're really saying is you're voting UKIP at the next election.

Not necessarily. But I can understand why they will increasingly appeal to disaffected voters from left and right of the political spectrum. They need to come up with sound policies on Health, Policing, Armed Forces, Education etc etc before I can consider them. I would like to see a 'None of the Above' box on a polling form. Would be interested to see what percentage that gets in a general election.

thegreatdivide

Mr Goo wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Has Mr. Cameron not just spent the last 6 months telling us how we are better together and strength comes from being part of a larger community?

So he has. But he was referring to the large community of super rich. They are in it together. Getting richer and paying less tax.
I will hold my hands up and admit to voting for Camoron. I could never ever vote Tory again. Nor would I vote for Labour or Lib Dems. They are all one and the same.

So what you're really saying is you're voting UKIP at the next election.

Not necessarily. But I can understand why they will increasingly appeal to disaffected voters from left and right of the political spectrum. They need to come up with sound policies on Health, Policing, Armed Forces, Education etc etc before I can consider them. I would like to see a 'None of the Above' box on a polling form. Would be interested to see what percentage that gets in a general election.

Have a look at their policies online. It's highly entertaining. Apart from banging on about getting out of Europe and sending the foreigners back (they might not say it like that but it's what they mean and what their voters mean) UKIP also want to spend £90 billion on new nuclear power stations, increase frack-ing and shale gas extraction, increase defence spending by 40% and build a huge Royal Navy inc another carrier. They never clearly state where all the money for this is going to come from. Why? Because they don't know.

But best of all they are head over heels in love with road taxing cyclists, charging them for parking their bikes and enforcing a rule that means they have to walk their bikes round roundabouts to stop them from delaying traffic.

They are lunatics.

bernithebiker

Seems the EU wants to penalise hard work and success by 'taxing' the UK more, and giving this cash to lazy, feckless wasters in places like France, Italy and Greece, who's economies are in the crapper.

Not on if you ask me….

laurentian

Tangled Metal wrote:

Sorry about off topic but there is a big refrain that anyone left leaning sings about the hard working nurses and firemen. The idea that they have had a pay freeze like so many others but they deserve better. Can I ask Mr Goo what his hierarchy of jobs is and at what level do they not deserve a real terms pay increase in line with the cost of living. At what point in the job hierarchy do we switch over from un-deserving to deserving?

I only say this because a lot of people work damn hard in the private sector, the private, manufacturing sector where things are still being made and not just providing a service. I know we are not worthy of a pay increase but I personally would just love to be earning what I was back in 2007/ early 2008. I have not had a real terms pay reduction but an actual pay reduction where the pay packet has actually gone down. That happened in the left leaning Labour government days BTW. It's a result of a redundancy and having to take a lower paid job to make ends meet.

All that is off topic but I dearly want to know how I can calibrate our worthiness scale so I can work out just how much of a pay cut I can expect to give those worthy occupations a pay rise? BTW I do think we should be paying nurses a good pay for what they do same with firemen/people. Also manufacturing workers, cleaners, binmen, office administrators, shop assistants, charity workers that are employees not volunteers, etc. In fact i believe in the living wage.

I guess I am just being argumentative with all this and probably on my own in questioning the worthiness idea. My view is that I believe in living wage, anything else is just gravy!!

It is off-topic . . . but hooray!!

mr_goo

Camoron has rushed over to Brussels to fight this financial penalty of £1.7bn, which must be paid by 1st Dec. He has probably got the cheque book in his briefcase and after a couple of meetings will give them a cheque. Then he will make a statement on the tv news saying that it was a victory for the UK.

apreading

bernithebiker wrote:

Seems the EU wants to penalise hard work and success by 'taxing' the UK more, and giving this cash to lazy, feckless wasters in places like France, Italy and Greece, who's economies are in the crapper.

Not on if you ask me….

Greece and Italy have to pay extra too. Admittedly not the same magnitude as the UK - but bizarre based on how their economies are doing... The winners are hard working, successful Germany and the only 'lazy, feckless wasters' (your term, not mine!) getting extra are France.

finchy

Tangled Metal wrote:

Sorry about off topic but there is a big refrain that anyone left leaning sings about the hard working nurses and firemen. The idea that they have had a pay freeze like so many others but they deserve better. Can I ask Mr Goo what his hierarchy of jobs is and at what level do they not deserve a real terms pay increase in line with the cost of living. At what point in the job hierarchy do we switch over from un-deserving to deserving?

I only say this because a lot of people work damn hard in the private sector, the private, manufacturing sector where things are still being made and not just providing a service. I know we are not worthy of a pay increase but I personally would just love to be earning what I was back in 2007/ early 2008. I have not had a real terms pay reduction but an actual pay reduction where the pay packet has actually gone down. That happened in the left leaning Labour government days BTW. It's a result of a redundancy and having to take a lower paid job to make ends meet.

All that is off topic but I dearly want to know how I can calibrate our worthiness scale so I can work out just how much of a pay cut I can expect to give those worthy occupations a pay rise? BTW I do think we should be paying nurses a good pay for what they do same with firemen/people. Also manufacturing workers, cleaners, binmen, office administrators, shop assistants, charity workers that are employees not volunteers, etc. In fact i believe in the living wage.

I guess I am just being argumentative with all this and probably on my own in questioning the worthiness idea. My view is that I believe in living wage, anything else is just gravy!!

I think the point isn't who is worthy or not, and Mr Goo was choosing these professions because they are taxpayer-funded, so money would have to be diverted from paying essential workers more and towards the EU pot instead.

TBH, having seen at first hand just how easily EU social project funding can be misused, I'm very much inclined to agree on this one.

pblakeney

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

The EU original intentions of a common market were good and remain good. Where it fell down was when it tried to become a super state like America. We do not share a common view or national identity with other countries which exists is the USA between states. I am purely interested in the EU being a vehicle for trade. I could not care less about the other stuff as our individual country governments were capable of managing this stuff before and could do so again.

Like all things once you create the institution then it grows regardless of the wishes of its members. This is fundamentally undemocratic and it is getting to the point where the bulk of the population may choose to take their chances with the UK out of Europe. Whilst this may cause damage to the economy the constant push for more and more control by the EU makes this inevitable with the general public.

The idea of a "United States of Europe" has been around for a very long time.

1952 apparently.
"1952 saw the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe", starting with the aim of eliminating the possibility of further wars between its member states by means of pooling the national heavy industries."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

greasedscotsman

The surcharge follows an annual review of the economic performance of EU member states since 1995, which showed Britain has done better than previously thought. Elements of the black economy - such as drugs and prostitution - have also been included in the calculations for the first time.

The BBC's head of statistics Anthony Reuben said prostitution, drugs and tobacco smuggling were not included in national income before 2002 when they should have been, under accounting rules.

In contrast, prostitution was included in Germany's own national accounts and given EU budget contributions are based on national income, this partly explains why the UK has been underpaying and Germany overpaying, he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29754168

florerider

So it's screw or be screwed then

Pross

So are the EU advocating drug dealing and prostitution as it gives them a greater income? :shock:

Corners R Us

Thing that will stick in the UK public's throat most is austerity, struggling a bit or a lot to reduce the the countries deficit and turning round the economy to a degree then being kicked in the ackers by unelected bureaucrats who will happily give themselves massive pay increases and squander €m's with no sanction or redress. I don't mind paying my way but come on.

And yes Dave will probably bend over and take one for the team but as he will realise come next may the people have memories and will show their displeasure by putting him and his crew out on their ass......

joelsim

Hmmm, voting for a party that is inherently racist and wants to take us out of the EU into no-mans land. And as far as I can tell has no policies. Er no thanks.

joelsim

Corners R Us wrote:

Thing that will stick in the UK public's throat most is austerity, struggling a bit or a lot to reduce the the countries deficit and turning round the economy to a degree then being kicked in the ackers by unelected bureaucrats who will happily give themselves massive pay increases and squander €m's with no sanction or redress. I don't mind paying my way but come on.

And yes Dave will probably bend over and take one for the team but as he will realise come next may the people have memories and will show their displeasure by putting him and his crew out on their ass......

I don't like the Tories, but is there anyone you trust to run the economy better? Like Brussels says the UK is overperforming against expectations. The Tories will get my vote begrudgingly simply because there is no other choice.

Think about the next couple of decades, an ageing population is going to put far more of a strain on the UK, not only in benefits and pensions, but in the proportional revenue sense too. We are in for a very difficult future whichever way you look at it, and god forbid Labour get in and massively overspend as usual. The country will be bankrupted, which is something they haven't ever had to consider before.

mxp27824

Should (insert road/town/city/county here) stay a part of Britain? After all, think of all the tax that's paid to Westminster.
Of course we should. If you focus on the numbers in and ignore all positives out, any productive relationship starts to sound crap. We only ever hear the negatives about the E.U. from our crap journalists, I personally hope we do have a referendum so we get a chance to hear both sides for once.
Sure, £1.7bn sounds a lot, and times for most of us are as hard as ever, but the E.U. is not to blame. Ask yourself why, with all our knowledge and technological capability, we are unable to manage an economy that benefits the majority rather than a minority.